Thunder's Place

The big penis and mens' sexual health source, increasing penis size around the world.

Read - The Second PE Survey -- A Thunder's Place group project

Originally Posted by Big Girtha
Remek:

I finally got a chance to look over the “Talk:Building the survey” you PMed to me. This thing is coming along really well. I can’t think of a thing you’ve overlooked. I really like the idea of assuring participants, up front, that their answers can not be linked to their user name. This should help ensure the accuracy of the survey. Because it is time consuming to take in the first place I doubt anyone would go to the trouble of lying about their gains, as they may very well do in posts and threads. Assuring their anonymity will most likely preserve the integrity of the survey.

Sorry I haven’t been on the wiki except for the link you sent me, nor have I had time to read through this entire thread, however just scrolling through I can see you all have been working very hard on getting it right this time. Have you all worked out a way to make sure each member can only take the survey once? I?sThundmemdmemdmem mem or any of the technical mods should be able to set it up this way. I know the polls we post as threads have that kind of safeguard. Will it be possible for anyone using a proxy server to manipulate the survey in a way to push products or devices? I really don’t think that happened on the first survey, but because we made such a fuss about the possibility of doing so, scam artists or pill pushers out there, may have been tipped off to this idea now. They certainly have had plenty of time to think about ways to jeopardize the results, and now that such persons know they have a chance to do this with the second survey, it may well happen. Wish I could be of more help, but due to time constraints just haven’t the time. But you guys are doing a great job.

Thanks
BG

BG, thanks for the kind words my friend. The programmer is taking care of all that, so don’t you worry. From what I hear, his programming skills are so good, even the FBI is worried of what he will hack into next ;)

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
It is also important to tie questions about supplements to the time at which they were taken. Were they taken during the newbie period, or later. Perhaps we could include questions about supplements along with those for the routines, so that we can see not only if supplements are effective but also when they are effective.

This idea sounds great. It is surely implementable. We would have to set up a “time table” of course. Maybe breaking down the stages of PE..

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Section III

1. Should question 4 about beginning LOT be moved to Section I, so it can be with all the other starting specs?

2. I’m confused by question 6. I think it’s the same issue as above. Should “before” stuff be moved to Section I and “after” stuff moved to Section III, or do we want to keep before and after in one section?

Section I isn’t necessarily a “before PE,” section. It is the basic PE Outcome section. Section III is the Detailed Outcome section. It includes the detailed questions (i.e. LOT)

Originally Posted by MM
3. Question 8 should ask about “curvature” rather than “shape.” My shape has changed but my curvature hasn’t.

4. Question 9 (color) might be expanded upon to distinguish general color of the organ from discoloration markings. My general color is about the same, but I have blackish bands under my circ scar from hanging.

Agree.

Originally Posted by MM
5. For question 10, respondents should be requried to have at least 4 or 5 months of PE under their belts before the qualify to answer questions about plateaus.

I disagree. Who is to say a newbie can’t have a plateau? I think disqualifying members, because WE THINK, they shouldn’t have had a plateau yet is unethical.


Originally Posted by MM
6. Substitute “hardness” for “quality” and “strength” in question 11.

7. For question 12, a person can’t know if they “required” a break. They can only know whether they took one and whether they gained or not afterwards.

8. For question 13, the term, “past injuries” sounds like it might mean “pre-PE injuries.” Perhaps it should read, “Please include each recurrence of an injury as a separate injury for purposes of this count.”

9. Under question 1 for “Thrombosed Veins,” are you sure you want to allow people in the midst of a recurperative break to respond? It seems that that will skew the data to a smaller than correct number. I have the same comment for the other injuries.

6 & 7, I agree.

8. Agree with the idea that past injuries does include the idea of all past injuries, even PRE-PE. I see someone added your change to wiki. Was it you, or are we now using wiki to update?

9. Agree. I think we should add a question asking the user if they are still recovering from the injury.

Reference for myself, and others:
*Add a question/questions regarding the time (or time period) supplements where taken.
* Change question 8 to curvature
* Clarify discoloration in question 9
* For question 11, substitute “hardness” for “quality,” and “strength.”
* Change the wording for question 12. People can't know if they “required a break.”
* Change question 13 to “How many times in your PE career have you experienced an injury severe enough to require you to majorly reduce or take a break from your PE regimen for at least 3 days? Please include recurrences of past injuries in your count. Please enter a zero (0) if you have never been injured through PE. ____ times”
* In the injuries section add a question asking the user of they are still recovering from the injury. If yes, they cannot answer the current question # 1 will list, “How many weeks ago where you injured?”


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Great ideas all the way through MM. More comments below:

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Section IV

1. Questions 1 presumes that the respondent proceeded beyond the newbie routine. We should make it clear that that is not an assumption (e.g., add
to the end of the question).


Agree

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
2. For Question 2, is the point to learn something about the effects of consistency or to learn something about decon breaks. If it’s consistency, 3 weeks is probably too long. If it’s decon breaks, I think you should up the time off to at least 6 weeks.

Agree. 6 weeks would be optimal for breaks. 1 - 2 weeks for consistency. The question is, who will be able to remember how many times they took a 1 - 2 week break? I have taken over 40 of them myself ( a complete guesstimate). For this reason, I think we should up it to 6 weeks.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
3. For each type of exercise explored, it is great that you ask how long the routine was used. But we still need to connect that response to a value of gain that came about as a result of that routine. This is what I’m talking about in my comments about Section II above. Also, you need to know when in the respondent’s career the routine was used (newbie or later, especially). On top of that, we need to know what other exercises were done at the same time.

Agree. In the last 10 questions of the first survey, this is what I was aiming for. Although the wording, and the outlining of the last 10 questions failed miserably (so bad that I was unable to gather some good statistical data), I think the idea could still work…. I followed under this line of thinking:

a) find the users gains while using exercise X (or approximate gains)
b) find the users other exercises while using exercise X
c) find out how long they used X

I think add a question or a few questions following the same line of thinking…

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
4. For question 3 (and others), there is a lot of difference between some of the choices. Perhaps we could use a scale of 1-5 for these types of responses. Also, the last choice in question 3 (just enough to produce a nice pump) presumes that that’s the lowest intensity anyone would use. Sometimes I have to work pretty hard to get a nice pump. This choice ought to reflect very light effort, expressed not in terms of the result (nice pump) but in terms of the effort (light grip, gentle action).

Agree. I believe we should use better terminology (and add a scale of 1-5) on all of the intensity questions.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

5. Question 7 (erection level) is problemmatic. It’s just very difficult to compare one guy’s erection level to another’s. Maybe we could propose a more objective “yardstick.” I’ve noticed that “erection level” during jelqing varies as follows:

- Penis does not resist compression at base but does expand slightly toward glans as stroke is performed.
- Penis resists compression slightly at base and progressively more toward glans.
- Penis resists compression moderately at base and progressively more toward glans.
- Penis resists compression strongly at base and throughout jelq stroke.
- Penis is very hard and not easily compressible at base and throughout jelq stroke.

Maybe we can use something like that instead.

You know, I completely missed this, and I am glad you pointed it out. I have spent days research erection level on this forum. Everyone has a different meaning of “percent.” One of my future projects is building an actual erection level chart, with graphs and such. I like the idea of proposing a “yard stick.” Yours is very good, but I think we should trim up some of the words a bit…

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

7. Under “Manual Stretching,” question 2, is an A-stretch the same as a V-stretch? Do we want to use the term “bundled stretch” (not actually sure what that is) or “fulcrum assisted stretch” instead?


Agree. Also, I just noticed … We don’t have a section on bends. Bends definetly needed to be added. Either a whole new section, or into the manual girth section.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

8. I’m just noticing this for the “Hanging” section, but really it applies to all exercises: shouldn’t the first question allow for 1-week breaks? Maybe we want to ask “how many months” rather than “how many weeks,” to avoid the problem of dealing with a week off here and there.

We should look at the pro’s and con’s of each:
Pro’s of weeks:
More accuracy in data

Pro’s of months:
More accuracy in answers (or at least, I am assuming)

What is more important? I assume the later.


Originally Posted by ModestoMan

9. Question 4 (under “Hanging”) asks about weight and angle, but only accepts an input for weight.


Good catch.. I don’t think that question was there previously, someone must have added it into wiki.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

10. Many hangers remove the heat mid-way throught their sessions. Many apply heat in the morning but not in the afternoon (assuming they hang both morning and afternoon). The questions need to probe this. I don’t know if pumpers use heat differently, but you may want to add the same questions to the pumping sections.

I don’t see a problem with the question now. If the user heats in the morning, but not in the afternoon, then he would choose Answer C. ” Sometimes -– approximately 50% of the time “

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

11. We need some more questions in the pumping section about time and frequency: How long are your sets? Do you keep the pressure the same throughout your sets? How many sets do you do per day? Come to think of it, we need similar questions for hangers. The amount of time needed to achieve the “therapeutic effect” is a big issue among pumpers and hangers. We should get some data about that here.

Agree, this follows what Peter Dick suggested earlier.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

13. Regarding the traction devices, I think their users would say there is a big difference between stretchers and ADS’s. Stretchers apply moderate tension that their users say causes the tissues to grow in the absence of any other form of PE. ADS are always used to augment hanging, however, and serve a different purpose. These should really be broken up into two different sections. Come to think of it, questions about ADS (I think) really belong in the hanging section. So, I think we should add a new section about stretchers, but put questions about ADS in the hanger’s section.

I think we should start a completely different section for ADS. Having them combined could attribute a lot of gains from an ADS to another form of hanging (i.e. a BIB hanger).

Wow, that was a big section. Good input MM.

Reference for myself, and others:
* At the end of question 1, add “if you have tried a more advanced regimen”
* Question 2 - change 3 weeks, to 6
* Again, try to find a way to put a measurement on “certain exercises”
* Change the wording of intensity questions, add scale (1 - 5)
* Build “erection level” chart
* In question 2 of stretching add: A stretch, bundled stretch, fulcrum stretch,
* Incorporate bends
* More questions in the pumping/hanging/clamping sections about time and frequency: How long are your sets? Do you keep the pressure the same throughout your sets? How many sets do you do per day?
* Separate ADS section from traction devices


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Section V

1. Question 5 would be clearer as “How often have you ejaculated with in 2 hours of completing a PE session?”

Agree

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

That’s it for now!


Thank the lord!! Just Kidding ;) The feedback is very welcome, even if it is past deadline.

Reference for myself, and others:
* Change question 5: “How often have you ejaculated with in 2 hours of completing a PE session?”


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Recipient M, replied:

I’m honored to be asked.

Section 1, Q1: is bone pressed erect lenght a commonly clearly understood definition? I think it is, but maybe a link to clear definition to eradicate possible misunderstandings?
Q8: maybe elaborate on the varying lenght of flaccid? It could be a little bit larger but vary not occassionally but frequently? One set of alternatives for if if size varies - constant length to constant variation - and a another set about how length has changed.

Section 2, Q2: I don’t quite understand the wording of retired PEers - I presume we want to know how many weeks were active and how many were breaks - “If you are “retired” from PE, please do not include the weeks in your calculation, since you have quit. ” which weeks are not to be included? Those after last activity?
Q4: add alternative to find out how efficient ADS are - if we are to exclude use of ADS in time estimate, we won’t know if the other exercises benefit from ADS. It would be interesting to know if manual exercises are greatly / just a little / not at all benefited by ADS. And also, those that use ADS only, how effective is it on it’s own? I my case, I did manual first, now ADS only since I am curious about how effective it is (plus I’m lazy). So careers can be split in time - manual only, manual + hanging, manual + ads and so on. Are we into finding out if any combinations are better than others? Monty argues the “keeping the microtears open” theory, it would be interesting to see if we could confirm that (or not). // Edit: now that I read the rest of secton2, I see that ADS is included in weeks but then this does not match this question. General observation - if people have distinct periods of this or that only, maybe we should as about if they had specific results during those periods?
Q5: Does not match Q4, since ADS is taken out.

Section 3, Q1: this means longest consecutive stretch or all off-time together? It’s understandable but not overly clear wording.
Q4+Q5: link to concise explanation of hot LOT is measured.
Q9: If yes, in blotches or even discoloration?
Q11+Q12: does the erection quality change after having a plateau - is it good at firs but diminish during the plateau, the other way around or not affected at all?
Q14: blood from penis emanating from urethra or breaks in glans or what? I seem to recall reading about someone bleeding from glans?
Q14A: link to description of thrombosed vein, maybe?
Q14C: how bad is the penile dysfunction - bothersome, complete malfunction or what?

Section 4, Q2: Repeat that the break is 3+ weeks repeatedly in the question.
A3: I can grip harder than I can take - is this what you mean, as hard as you can stand it?
A7: repeat distinction between erection level and quality and angle - I understood this as angle down or up when jelquing.
A11: nothing on cool-down? Heat afterwards or just stop using heat or cooling with ice cubes?

B1: nothing on how long (minutes) that stretching took place?
B6: heating could be used by intermittent dunking or hot wraps - I did that for a while. (without a heat lamp, I mean)

C1: nothing on minutes during those weeks?
C2: links to definitions - I don’t know what the distinction between horse and uli is…
C6: see B6 comment

D4: anything about how long sets are? Is this interesting to know, I mean long sets at light weight or high weight and short time, which is more effective?
D6: what about heating between sets?
D7: see B6 comment

E: same comment as D4 except time versus hg.
E6: see comment B6

F1: see comment B1
F5: see comment B6

G2: link to homemade stretchers, or clarify that this involves more than just wearing a strap around one’s knee :)

Section V, Q1: and how old are you today?
Q6: tobacco chew - a lot of Swedes use snus, for instance - or nicotine plasters from trying to quit.
In general: have you changed lifestyle (caffeine, nicotine, alcohol) during you PE career, better, worse or constant?

Ending comments - do the above alternatives allow us to figure out if it is time spent PEing that is interesting or if it is important to follow a set routine, as I wondered earlier?


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Recipient S, replied:

Hey thanks for the notice. I like the start of it, to tell how much you gained since you started PE. But, something beat around the bush a little. Like you should try to find out what’s working. Ask a question like this:

Allow only one choice to be selected.
-Doing what exercise have you seen the BEST results in length?
-Doing what exercise have you seen the BEST results in girth?
-Doing what exercise have you seen the most rapid gains?
-How long did it take for gains?
-What exercise overall worked best?

I think questions along those lines will give us a good idea of what exercises work best for people. This way newbies and everyone else can see what exercises provide the best results.


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Respondent M would like to add some thoughts after having slept on the subject.

I have questions about the two major topics of discussion from the previous survey - masturbation and supplements.

I speculate that why it would seem that masturbation affected negatively is because of those in a relationship might be concerned with not wasting ejaculate (which is covered in the questions) but also more motivated than the single guys. Maybe the questions should include if the respondee is currently in a relationship?

Come to think of it, we should have a set of questions as if a partner is informed or not, has noticed changes or not, possibly if she is positive about PE or not?

The issue about supplements being beneficial was explained in a fitness mag years ago as being not placebo but incitiament to clean up one’s entire life - if you spend lots of money on supplements you better do the rest that the doc tells you, right? This is all subjective, but it might be good to add some subjective questions to those that take supplements about if they have changed other things as a result of or at the same time as they started taking the supplements (cut back on greasy foods, soda pop, beer, tobacco, coffee? Increased exercise, sleep, better food?). By crosschecking that to those that have improved lifestyle without taking supplements, maybe one can see if it is the lifestyle changes or the supplements that make a difference (or seem to make a difference).

I’ll pop in again if something else springs to mind.


regards, mgus

Taped onto the dashboard of a car at a junkyard, I once found the following: "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." The car was crashed.

Primary goal: To have an EQ above average (i.e. streetsmart, compassionate about life and happy) Secondary goal: to make an anagram of my signature denoting how I feel about my gains

M, if you are reading this. I want to send a big “Thank You,” from me to you. I appreciate the feedback, and I am glad you took time out of your day to help everyone out.

Also M, you had great comments, many of them I did not reply to, but I added anyways. You had so many comments that I couldn’t reply to each one. But do not be wary, each one is very esteemed.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
Section 1, Q1: is bone pressed erect lenght a commonly clearly understood definition? I think it is, but maybe a link to clear definition to eradicate possible misunderstandings?


This is possible. However, if the user doesn’t know what BPEL is, then he most likely didn’t take a starting measurement, making his data pertaining to gains useless.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
Q8: maybe elaborate on the varying lenght of flaccid? It could be a little bit larger but vary not occassionally but frequently? One set of alternatives for if if size varies - constant length to constant variation - and a another set about how length has changed.


Great points. I agree, elaboration of flaccid size is needed.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
Section 2, Q2: I don’t quite understand the wording of retired PEers - I presume we want to know how many weeks were active and how many were breaks - “If you are “retired” from PE, please do not include the weeks in your calculation, since you have quit. ” which weeks are not to be included? Those after last activity?

Great find! Can’t believed I missed this one.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
Q4: add alternative to find out how efficient ADS are - if we are to exclude use of ADS in time estimate, we won’t know if the other exercises benefit from ADS. It would be interesting to know if manual exercises are greatly / just a little / not at all benefited by ADS. And also, those that use ADS only, how effective is it on it’s own? I my case, I did manual first, now ADS only since I am curious about how effective it is (plus I’m lazy). So careers can be split in time - manual only, manual + hanging, manual + ads and so on. Are we into finding out if any combinations are better than others? Monty argues the “keeping the microtears open” theory, it would be interesting to see if we could confirm that (or not). // Edit: now that I read the rest of secton2, I see that ADS is included in weeks but then this does not match this question. General observation - if people have distinct periods of this or that only, maybe we should as about if they had specific results during those periods?
Q5: Does not match Q4, since ADS is taken out.

This follows what Modesto was saying earlier. We need to question gains to certain exercises.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
Section 3, Q1: this means longest consecutive stretch or all off-time together? It’s understandable but not overly clear wording.


Agreed, 100 percent.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
Q4+Q5: link to concise explanation of hot LOT is measured.
Quote
Disagree,
If they don’t know how to measure LOT, then they wouldn’t have measured LOT, meaning we can’t use their data.

[QUOTE=Recipient M]
Q9: If yes, in blotches or even discoloration?


This would be a good way to elaborate more on the discoloration. Good thinking M!

[QUOTE=Recipient M]
Q11+Q12: does the erection quality change after having a plateau - is it good at firs but diminish during the plateau, the other way around or not affected at all?

Good Thinking.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
Q14: blood from penis emanating from urethra or breaks in glans or what? I seem to recall reading about someone bleeding from glans?
Q14A: link to description of thrombosed vein, maybe?
Q14C: how bad is the penile dysfunction - bothersome, complete malfunction or what?

These ideas have encouraged me to add an “other” box.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
A11: nothing on cool-down? Heat afterwards or just stop using heat or cooling with ice cubes?


Good idea. I really don’t know of too many people using a cool down, but the warm-down is a great idea.

Originally Posted by Recipient M
B6: heating could be used by intermittent dunking or hot wraps - I did that for a while. (without a heat lamp, I mean)


I am confused, could anyone clarify this for me?

Originally Posted by Recipient M
C2: links to definitions - I don’t know what the distinction between horse and uli is…

Originally Posted by Recipient M
In general: have you changed lifestyle (caffeine, nicotine, alcohol) during you PE career, better, worse or constant?


Great general-subjective question!

Originally Posted by Recipient M

Ending comments - do the above alternatives allow us to figure out if it is time spent PEing that is interesting or if it is important to follow a set routine, as I wondered earlier?

In a way, yes. In another way, no. Your question is the hardest of them all, and I think it will take many questions, surveys, and even experiments to find a true answer.

Reference for myself, and others:
* Elaborate on flaccid size – (i.e. “frequently)
* Section 2, question 2 – Revamp question, maybe split into multiple questions (i.e. “retired PEer’s)
* Section 3, Question 1 – Make more clear.
* Discoloration question – elaborate more (i.e. If yes, “in blotches,” or “even”)
* Q11 & Q12: does the erection quality change after having a plateau - is it good at first but diminish during the plateau, the other way around, or not affected at all?
* Add “other” box to list of injuries
* Section IV, question 7, make level of erection hardness.
* Discuss a “cool-down” question
* Add “warm-down” question
* Again, add length of stretch
* Heating between pumping/hanging/clamping sets?
* Find the equivalence of tobacco chew to one cigarette, and modify the question
* In general, how has your lifestyle (define lifestyle) since you started PE?


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by mgus
Respondent M would like to add some thoughts after having slept on the subject.

I have questions about the two major topics of discussion from the previous survey - masturbation and supplements.

I speculate that why it would seem that masturbation affected negatively is because of those in a relationship might be concerned with not wasting ejaculate (which is covered in the questions) but also more motivated than the single guys. Maybe the questions should include if the respondee is currently in a relationship?

Come to think of it, we should have a set of questions as if a partner is informed or not, has noticed changes or not, possibly if she is positive about PE or not?

The issue about supplements being beneficial was explained in a fitness mag years ago as being not placebo but incitiament to clean up one’s entire life - if you spend lots of money on supplements you better do the rest that the doc tells you, right? This is all subjective, but it might be good to add some subjective questions to those that take supplements about if they have changed other things as a result of or at the same time as they started taking the supplements (cut back on greasy foods, soda pop, beer, tobacco, coffee? Increased exercise, sleep, better food?). By crosschecking that to those that have improved lifestyle without taking supplements, maybe one can see if it is the lifestyle changes or the supplements that make a difference (or seem to make a difference).

I’ll pop in again if something else springs to mind.

Thank you, recipitient M ;) I didn’t want to release your name until you gave me permission. Some men here are cautious about what they say, and where they say it, so I didn’t want to step over your boundaries.

In reference to the ejaculation question, I think we could sum up your theory in a question like the following:

On a scale 1 - 10, how motivated to PE are you?

1 being I hate it
10 being I live to PE.

Obviously the question would have to be touched up a bit, but you get the idea.

The fitness mag you read years ago has truth to it. I mean, think about it. If a guy is willing to spend 80 bucks a month to grow a bigger dick, he is most likely going to do the exercises … I think the questions we have now will allow us to analyze this, especially if we add the “lifestyle question” you suggested earlier.

Notes for my reference, and others:
* Add a “how motivated to PE are you” question. (Scale 1 - 10)


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by Recipient S
Ask a question like this:

Allow only one choice to be selected.
-Doing what exercise have you seen the BEST results in length?
-Doing what exercise have you seen the BEST results in girth?
-Doing what exercise have you seen the most rapid gains?
-How long did it take for gains?
-What exercise overall worked best?

I think questions along those lines will give us a good idea of what exercises work best for people. This way newbies and everyone else can see what exercises provide the best results.

Recipient S, Thank you for the reply. You picked up on some stuff that we missed. In fact, I think a lot of people mentioned the fact that we didn’t ask specifically “Hey BUDDY, WHAT WORKED FOR YOU!?”

I think we should create another section. A subjective section.

Basically asking all the questions, regarding questions like the above, and below:

Lifestyle questions,
PE and its “pyschological affects,” etc etc.
Many questions I listed in the past 20 replies.

Again, S, thanks for the reply bud!

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
:) You got a smilie. Cool. Check your PMs.

BTW, thanks for the smilie link T :hearno: … Although I still don’t see that link on the bottom of the page you mentioned.

Reference for myself, and others:
*-Doing what exercise have you seen the BEST results in length?
* Doing what exercise have you seen the BEST results in girth?
* Doing what exercise have you seen the most rapid gains?
* How long did it take for gains?
* What exercise overall worked best?
* Create “subjective” section (lifestyle questions, questions above, etc.)


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by MM
My first point is probably obvious. It is critical that responses for any given individual are somehow tagged as belonging to that individual, so that correlations among different responses for individuals can be drawn. This doesn’t necessarily mean storing user names, but some key must be applied to uniquely identify the respondent for each answer.

Right. I made sure of that before I signed on to help out with this project :)

Originally Posted by MM
I suggest renaming “erection quality” to “erection hardness.” That will avoid the need for explaining the difference between quality and angle, or other subjective factors. We may want to define “hardness” as rigidity and firmness to the touch.

Excellent.

Originally Posted by MM
Question 8 may be difficult to answer for guys who PE every day. It may be impossible to know whether they’re experiencing permanent flaccid gains or post workout pumps.

Good point. I’ll change it so that it asks guys about their flaccid after 3 days with no PE. If a guy has never taken off 3 days, he shouldn’t answer the question.

Originally Posted by MM
Perhaps we could add a subjective question or two: How would you rate your overall satisfaction with your penis before PE? After PE?

Agreed. We’ve been doing a little work on that “behind the scenes” recently ;)

Originally Posted by MM
Most experienced PE’ers will tell you that newbie gains are a whole different kind of thing than gains occurring later.

I hope we’ll have guys from enough stages of their PE careers (from 1-month-in to 4-years-in) to get a sense of the time course of gains to be expected. Asking each individual for the exact time course of his gains, unfortunately, would make for a labyrinthine set of data to analyze. I’ve thought about some other ways of approaching this question — say, by asking guys about their 3-month measurements — but a host of new confounds seem to arise (I won’t go into detail here…).

Originally Posted by MM
It is also important to tie questions about supplements to the time at which they were taken. Were they taken during the newbie period, or later.

Perhaps this is due to my bias against supplements’ efficacy, but I’m thinking that the supplement section is already complicated enough. Is there any particular reason to think that supplements would be effective for newbies, but not thereafter (or the other way around)? There may be ways to sort-of address this issue without adding a new question…

Originally Posted by MM
1. Should question 4 about beginning LOT be moved to Section I, so it can be with all the other starting specs?

The idea of breaking down the Outcomes & Regimen sections into “summary” and “details” parts is that some participants may never complete the whole survey (data will be saved as they go along through the sections), and we want to put the most important questions upfront, to glean data even from lazy participants. We felt LOT is not of the highest importance.

Originally Posted by MM
. Question 8 should ask about “curvature” rather than “shape.” My shape has changed but my curvature hasn’t.

Excellent point. I’ll change that.

Originally Posted by MM
Question 9 (color) might be expanded upon to distinguish general color of the organ from discoloration markings. My general color is about the same, but I have blackish bands under my circ scar from hanging.

Yes. I think I’ll change it to indicate that either change will constitute a “Yes” answer, to keep things simple here. Good point.

Originally Posted by MM
For question 10, respondents should be requried to have at least 4 or 5 months of PE under their belts before the qualify to answer questions about plateaus.

All right. Will do.

Originally Posted by MM
For question 12, a person can’t know if they “required” a break.

I agree. I’ll look at this again, but I think I had a specific reason for why I asked for this admittedly subjective judgment. I’ll check carefully and will revise if appropriate.

Originally Posted by MM
For question 13, the term, “past injuries” sounds like it might mean “pre-PE injuries.” Perhaps it should read, “Please include each recurrence of an injury as a separate injury for purposes of this count.”

Great observation.

Originally Posted by MM
Under question 1 for “Thrombosed Veins,” are you sure you want to allow people in the midst of a recurperative break to respond? It seems that that will skew the data to a smaller than correct number. I have the same comment for the other injuries.

I’ll take a look at this. I can’t remember it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Originally Posted by MM
Questions 1 presumes that the respondent proceeded beyond the newbie routine. We should make it clear that that is not an assumption (e.g., add “if you have tried a more advanced regimen” to the end of the question).

Again another great observation.

Originally Posted by MM
For Question 2, is the point to learn something about the effects of consistency or to learn something about decon breaks. If it’s consistency, 3 weeks is probably too long. If it’s decon breaks, I think you should up the time off to at least 6 weeks.

You’re much more expert than I am about physiology & decon. Do you think that 6 weeks is widely agreed upon as a good minimum span for decon? I want to keep this simple by setting some cut-off number. I’ll use 6 if you think it’s best.

Originally Posted by MM
For each type of exercise explored, it is great that you ask how long the routine was used. But we still need to connect that response to a value of gain that came about as a result of that routine. This is what I’m talking about in my comments about Section II above. Also, you need to know when in the respondent’s career the routine was used (newbie or later, especially). On top of that, we need to know what other exercises were done at the same time.

This again gets to the limits of the survey methodology. If we were doing a qualitative study, this is definitely the way it would be done: interview dozens of PEers about their routine orders and all temporal issues involved. As it is, however, this will make for an overwhelmingly time-consuming data-consolidation-and-analysis process using the survey methodology. If I were being paid for this (and had more time for it), I’d gladly try to go that route. As it is, I’m afraid I can’t. Anyone else who wants to volunteer on devising a way to capture the regimens better, please do.

Originally Posted by MM
For question 3 (and others), there is a lot of difference between some of the choices. Perhaps we could use a scale of 1-5 for these types of responses. Also, the last choice in question 3 (just enough to produce a nice pump) presumes that that’s the lowest intensity anyone would use. Sometimes I have to work pretty hard to get a nice pump. This choice ought to reflect very light effort, expressed not in terms of the result (nice pump) but in terms of the effort (light grip, gentle action).

I’ll try to include more levels of choices here. The choices focused on result rather than effort because I wanted the meaning of the terms to be similar across subjects (effort talk is inherently abstract and subjective). I’ll try to revise this though.

Originally Posted by MM
Question 7 (erection level) is problemmatic. It’s just very difficult to compare one guy’s erection level to another’s. Maybe we could propose a more objective “yardstick.” I’ve noticed that “erection level” during jelqing varies as follows:

- Penis does not resist compression at base but does expand slightly toward glans as stroke is performed.

- Penis resists compression slightly at base and progressively more toward glans.

- Penis resists compression moderately at base and progressively more toward glans.

- Penis resists compression strongly at base and throughout jelq stroke.

- Penis is very hard and not easily compressible at base and throughout jelq stroke.

Can you please post this as a new thread in the Main Members forum? :) Seriously, this is really important contribution. I have always found the “percentage level” things to be pretty much impossible to interpret. I am MUCH more comfortable with your choices here :up:

Originally Posted by MM
For question 8 (and others like it in other exercise sections), do we want to just say, “How often have our sessions been preceded by no more than 30-minutes with a warm-up. I think the original phrasing was taking other exercises (like stretching) into consideration. People usually stretch before they jelq. Maybe another question is really needed: How long before you begin jelqing do you warm up?

I agree it needs to be specified better. I’m definitely not adding another question here, though. I will revise the instructions. Thanks for another great observation!

Originally Posted by MM
Under “Manual Stretching,” question 2, is an A-stretch the same as a V-stretch? Do we want to use the term “bundled stretch” (not actually sure what that is) or “fulcrum assisted stretch” instead?

I am clueless about stretches. I want more feedback about this. Can someone provide a definitive answer about the best way to group and list stretches?

Originally Posted by MM
shouldn’t the first question allow for 1-week breaks? Maybe we want to ask “how many months” rather than “how many weeks,” to avoid the problem of dealing with a week off here and there.

I don’t really understand your rationale here. Could you explain more?

Originally Posted by MM
Question 4 (under “Hanging”) asks about weight and angle, but only accepts an input for weight.

Must have been an error in transcribing to Wiki. My version here doesn’t have that problem. (It specifies a drop-down list of the angles in #2.)

Originally Posted by MM
Many hangers remove the heat mid-way throught their sessions. Many apply heat in the morning but not in the afternoon (assuming they hang both morning and afternoon). The questions need to probe this.

This is, again, taking the survey to a level of complexity that may be undesirable. I will look back at the questions here to ensure that they have a sufficient level of specificity, so that the respondent can at least answer appropriately (truthfully in a robust sense) even if this is the case (half-time heating, differences between sessions within one day).

Originally Posted by MM
We need some more questions in the pumping section about time and frequency: How long are your sets? Do you keep the pressure the same throughout your sets? How many sets do you do per day?

The question, again, is what approach has the most utility vis-a-vis the analysis stage. I’m not sure how a question such as “do you keep the pressure even” (for which there are two options — 0 or 1) would yield much very useful knowledge, even if the yes-group and no-group differ in their gains. The reason I chose to use “minutes per day” rather than sets and length of sets is that, for most analysis purposes, the #sets and lengthsets variables will probably be reduced to one variable (their product) anyway. Admittedly some prior intuitions are guiding my plan for analysis here: it seems, from my reading of these forums, that most guys agree that total hang time (or total pump time) are more important than the specific way that time is broken into sets (e.g., 10 10-minute sets vs. 5 20-minute sets). Now, of course, the point of this survey is to test whether the “conventional wisdom” is correct in every case, but occasionally we need to rely on said wisdom to make the project feasible. Are there specific physiological theories of PE efficacy that strongly suggest that, for example, two 10-minute hanging sets would differ significantly from one 20-minute set in efficacy? If so, I will do my best to try to incorporate more detailed set info into whichever sections it seems most justified (e.g., hanging or pumping or stretching…).

Originally Posted by MM
Regarding the traction devices, I think their users would say there is a big difference between stretchers and ADS’s.

Yes, my original draft included separate sections for them, but then I wasn’t sure how to group certain things (e.g. PE Weights) so I got lazy :) I will revert to the old design.

Originally Posted by MM
Come to think of it, questions about ADS (I think) really belong in the hanging section. So, I think we should add a new section about stretchers, but put questions about ADS in the hanger’s section.

I disagree here, but it may be due to ignorance. Are hangers the only guys who think ADSs are important to their routines?

Originally Posted by MM
Question 5 would be clearer as “How often have you ejaculated with in 2 hours of completing a PE session?”

Excellent catch.

Forgive me if I spoke weirdly in any of the above — I don’t have time to proofread it. Also, MM, I hope I don’t come off as stubborn or lazy in the way that I tended to defend against (rather than accept) some of the more drastic changes proposed (compared to the smaller ones). The reason I was defensive on those measures is that I consciously chose (for reasons I explained a bit above) to do those things the way they are in the current survey, whereas many of the other things were plainly errors and sloppy thinking on my part. My whole rationale for said conscious choices may also be erroneous or sloppy, however, so please do critique it if you’d like and I will remain open-minded about any revisions.

Thank you for the tremendously useful feedback!

Originally Posted by remek
Many guys, in fact, most guys do not stick to a consisent stretch time. I know I couldn’t answer this question. I think a good question for this would follow the same concept as this question:

2. IF you have used one particular type of stretch far more than any other during your PE career, please select it from the list below. Otherwise skip to the next question.

__ Standard stretch, straight out or at a higher angle.

__ Between-the-cheeks (BTC) stretch.

__ V-stretch.

__ JAI stretch.

Clever idea, Remek! If we add “length of set” info, this will be the way to do it to produce analyzable data.

Originally Posted by remek
MM, you are right, there is definitely an error. Using the current list of questions, we would be attributing your manual stretching success to hanging.

Surveys can only reveal averages, generalizations. If, generally, manual stretches lead to gains, whereas hanging does not, that will be revealed in multiple regression analyses. There will be data from guys who only hung. Data from guys who only stretched. Data from guys who hung & stretched in various proportions. The predictive power of each component will be revealed.

The main weakness in the argument I just made is systematic differences in time course: perhaps hanging generally comes after all newbie gains have dried up, so it doesn’t tend to contribute much to total gains when it’s added on top of the manual stretching that most guys have gone through during the newbie phase. This will be tricky to analyze, but I’m not sure there ‘s a better way to approach it than the current way, while keeping the project manageable.

Originally Posted by remek
I disagree. Who is to say a newbie can’t have a plateau? I think disqualifying members, because WE THINK, they shouldn’t have had a plateau yet is unethical.

I think he may have been suggesting that we shouldn’t consider the initial waiting-phase before making gains as a “plateau.” Most guys don’t see gains for at least a few weeks (often sevearl weeks) after starting PE.

Originally Posted by reviewer M
“If you are “retired” from PE, please do not include the weeks in your calculation, since you have quit. ” which weeks are not to be included? Those after last activity?

I think the comma before “since” must have been inserted in the Wiki, causing this confusion. I’ll clarify the wording further though.

Reviewer M, great observations all around. I’ll try to address some of them. Some of the links I may not have time to add — I hope others can!

Originally Posted by Reviewer S
Doing what exercise have you seen the BEST results in length?

-Doing what exercise have you seen the BEST results in girth?

-Doing what exercise have you seen the most rapid gains?

-How long did it take for gains?

-What exercise overall worked best?/quote]Awesome suggestions. I forgot to add these subjective-perceptions questions to the last revision. The best part is that they require no analysis ;) And answers to them can be compared to those deduced through objective-data analysis, to see if there’s agreement (strengthening validity of inferences from data in general) or no…

[quote=mgus]Maybe the questions should include if the respondee is currently in a relationship?

I think we are currently working on some questions along those lines. Thanks for the suggestions!

Originally Posted by mgus
This is all subjective, but it might be good to add some subjective questions to those that take supplements about if they have changed other things as a result of or at the same time as they started taking the supplements (cut back on greasy foods, soda pop, beer, tobacco, coffee? Increased exercise, sleep, better food?). By crosschecking that to those that have improved lifestyle without taking supplements, maybe one can see if it is the lifestyle changes or the supplements that make a difference (or seem to make a difference).

Yeah, we could ask a genearl “lifestyle improvement” question. Good call.

====================

I know I haven’t addressed nearly everything people have mentioned. Sorry!

***One general comment I should make about why I’m often resistant to start adding more questions and more distinctions, even when we really would love to know about those distinctions. Analyzing interactions between variables multiplies the number of “groups” being compared as a function of the number of factors, along with the number of levels within each factor; we quickly end up with 4-way interactions in which 72 groups are “significantly different.” Results, in other words, quickly can become uninterpretable — and increasingly unattainable, as each of the (e.g., 72) groups has vanishingly few participants within it.***

Originally Posted by Para-Goomba
Originally Posted by MM

Question 9 (color) might be expanded upon to distinguish general color of the organ from discoloration markings. My general color is about the same, but I have blackish bands under my circ scar from hanging.

Yes. I think I’ll change it to indicate that either change will constitute a “Yes” answer, to keep things simple here. Good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MM

For question 10, respondents should be requried to have at least 4 or 5 months of PE under their belts before the qualify to answer questions about plateaus.

All right. Will do.

I changed my mind about both these. The question about plateaus already excludes anyone who hasn’t yet achieved PE gains, so the only reason I can see for excluding newbs (we don’t want them to consider the initial wait for gains to be a “plateau”) isn’t there.

For the other question, I divided into two questions, as MM suggested.

Damn, you guys are prolific! I’ll try to carve out an hour or two later to respond to your excellent points. I’m sorry again for responding so late.


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

MM, don’t worry about the lateness (and don’t worry about it if you don’t have time for further response); your comments have really improved the survey already. I’m working on a revision right now. I’m incorporating some things I said I wouldn’t, and probaby also failing to incorporate some things I said I would. We’ll see what happens. :)

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