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Read - The Second PE Survey -- A Thunder's Place group project

It is also important to tie questions about supplements to the time at which they were taken. Were they taken during the newbie period, or later. Perhaps we could include questions about supplements along with those for the routines, so that we can see not only if supplements are effective but also when they are effective.


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Looking Good

Remek:

I finally got a chance to look over the “Talk:Building the survey” you PMed to me. This thing is coming along really well. I can’t think of a thing you’ve overlooked. I really like the idea of assuring participants, up front, that their answers can not be linked to their user name. This should help ensure the accuracy of the survey. Because it is time consuming to take in the first place I doubt anyone would go to the trouble of lying about their gains, as they may very well do in posts and threads. Assuring their anonymity will most likely preserve the integrity of the survey.

Sorry I haven’t been on the wiki except for the link you sent me, nor have I had time to read through this entire thread, however just scrolling through I can see you all have been working very hard on getting it right this time. Have you all worked out a way to make sure each member can only take the survey once? I’m sure Thundmem mem or any of the technical mods should be able to set it up this way. I know the polls we post as threads have that kind of safeguard. Will it be possible for anyone using a proxy server to manipulate the survey in a way to push products or devices? I really don’t think that happened on the first survey, but because we made such a fuss about the possibility of doing so, scam artists or pill pushers out there, may have been tipped off to this idea now. They certainly have had plenty of time to think about ways to jeopardize the results, and now that such persons know they have a chance to do this with the second survey, it may well happen. Wish I could be of more help, but due to time constraints just haven’t the time. But you guys are doing a great job.

Thanks
BG


2003: 6X5 2010: 7X7

No Nukes


Last edited by Big Girtha : 09-17-2005 at .

Section III

1. Should question 4 about beginning LOT be moved to Section I, so it can be with all the other starting specs?

2. I’m confused by question 6. I think it’s the same issue as above. Should “before” stuff be moved to Section I and “after” stuff moved to Section III, or do we want to keep before and after in one section?

3. Question 8 should ask about “curvature” rather than “shape.” My shape has changed but my curvature hasn’t.

4. Question 9 (color) might be expanded upon to distinguish general color of the organ from discoloration markings. My general color is about the same, but I have blackish bands under my circ scar from hanging.

5. For question 10, respondents should be requried to have at least 4 or 5 months of PE under their belts before the qualify to answer questions about plateaus.

6. Substitute “hardness” for “quality” and “strength” in question 11.

7. For question 12, a person can’t know if they “required” a break. They can only know whether they took one and whether they gained or not afterwards.

8. For question 13, the term, “past injuries” sounds like it might mean “pre-PE injuries.” Perhaps it should read, “Please include each recurrence of an injury as a separate injury for purposes of this count.”

9. Under question 1 for “Thrombosed Veins,” are you sure you want to allow people in the midst of a recurperative break to respond? It seems that that will skew the data to a smaller than correct number. I have the same comment for the other injuries.


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Section IV

1. Questions 1 presumes that the respondent proceeded beyond the newbie routine. We should make it clear that that is not an assumption (e.g., add “if you have tried a more advanced regimen” to the end of the question).

2. For Question 2, is the point to learn something about the effects of consistency or to learn something about decon breaks. If it’s consistency, 3 weeks is probably too long. If it’s decon breaks, I think you should up the time off to at least 6 weeks.

3. For each type of exercise explored, it is great that you ask how long the routine was used. But we still need to connect that response to a value of gain that came about as a result of that routine. This is what I’m talking about in my comments about Section II above. Also, you need to know when in the respondent’s career the routine was used (newbie or later, especially). On top of that, we need to know what other exercises were done at the same time.

4. For question 3 (and others), there is a lot of difference between some of the choices. Perhaps we could use a scale of 1-5 for these types of responses. Also, the last choice in question 3 (just enough to produce a nice pump) presumes that that’s the lowest intensity anyone would use. Sometimes I have to work pretty hard to get a nice pump. This choice ought to reflect very light effort, expressed not in terms of the result (nice pump) but in terms of the effort (light grip, gentle action).

5. Question 7 (erection level) is problemmatic. It’s just very difficult to compare one guy’s erection level to another’s. Maybe we could propose a more objective “yardstick.” I’ve noticed that “erection level” during jelqing varies as follows:

- Penis does not resist compression at base but does expand slightly toward glans as stroke is performed.

- Penis resists compression slightly at base and progressively more toward glans.

- Penis resists compression moderately at base and progressively more toward glans.

- Penis resists compression strongly at base and throughout jelq stroke.

- Penis is very hard and not easily compressible at base and throughout jelq stroke.

Maybe we can use something like that instead.

6. For question 8 (and others like it in other exercise sections), do we want to just say, “How often have our sessions been preceded by no more than 30-minutes with a warm-up. I think the original phrasing was taking other exercises (like stretching) into consideration. People usually stretch before they jelq. Maybe another question is really needed: How long before you begin jelqing do you warm up?

7. Under “Manual Stretching,” question 2, is an A-stretch the same as a V-stretch? Do we want to use the term “bundled stretch” (not actually sure what that is) or “fulcrum assisted stretch” instead?

8. I’m just noticing this for the “Hanging” section, but really it applies to all exercises: shouldn’t the first question allow for 1-week breaks? Maybe we want to ask “how many months” rather than “how many weeks,” to avoid the problem of dealing with a week off here and there.

9. Question 4 (under “Hanging”) asks about weight and angle, but only accepts an input for weight.

10. Many hangers remove the heat mid-way throught their sessions. Many apply heat in the morning but not in the afternoon (assuming they hang both morning and afternoon). The questions need to probe this. I don’t know if pumpers use heat differently, but you may want to add the same questions to the pumping sections.

11. We need some more questions in the pumping section about time and frequency: How long are your sets? Do you keep the pressure the same throughout your sets? How many sets do you do per day? Come to think of it, we need similar questions for hangers. The amount of time needed to achieve the “therapeutic effect” is a big issue among pumpers and hangers. We should get some data about that here.

12. I won’t go into clamping now, but the same general considerations raised above should be applied there.

13. Regarding the traction devices, I think their users would say there is a big difference between stretchers and ADS’s. Stretchers apply moderate tension that their users say causes the tissues to grow in the absence of any other form of PE. ADS are always used to augment hanging, however, and serve a different purpose. These should really be broken up into two different sections. Come to think of it, questions about ADS (I think) really belong in the hanging section. So, I think we should add a new section about stretchers, but put questions about ADS in the hanger’s section.


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Section V

1. Question 5 would be clearer as “How often have you ejaculated with in 2 hours of completing a PE session?”

That’s it for now!

Sorry to come in so late with so many proposed changes :dissap: .


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I don’t have time to work again on this until later tonight, but MM, thanks VERY much for the feedback! I haven’t read it all carefully yet, but most of the suggestions look extremely useful (and easy to add).

Briefly skimming your comments, the one part that I think will be extremely difficult to implement, in terms of data analysis, is getting a better sense of the time-course of men’s routines & gains. From the get-go, that has been acknowledged as the biggest hurdle to any PE survey — the inability to account for idiosyncracy. I believe that multiple regression — along with having many, many participants, so that we have all different ranges of PE experience represented — are key to getting a handle on the independent contributions of various routine components to outcome. If you can think of a specific way to implement a more targeted inquiry into these matters, while still retaining good standardized procedures for analysis across participants, please do let me know. I’ll probably be making a set of revisions tonight to the whole draft.

MM, as an example of what I meant:

>>>I gained 0.5” BPEL my first 3 months doing manual only for minutes (maybe 1 hour, max) 5 days a week. Then my gains stopped, so I switched to hanging. I hanged 6 months for hours a d and gained nothing. See the problem? You can’t aggregate this data and expect to arrive at anything intelligible<<<

Why would we not be able to arrive at anything intelligible if we used total hours spent on jelqing, manual stretching, and hanging as three predictors in a multiple regression across all participants who used these methods? There are still many confounds, yes, but I’m not sure that can be avoided in any survey. One of the important things about getting tons of participants is that we will have nice-sized groups of guys who used one exercise almost exclusively, allowing us to confirm or disconfirm any simple conclusions we might draw about the independent contributions of exercises to more complicated routines. It may be that complicated synergistic effects seem to be happening, or maybe not.

OK guys. I had booko work today, and I just arrived home. I have multiple PM’s (in the double digits). Most of which are PM’s about the survey. Many guys posted their opinions here. Others PMed me directely. I am going to first:

go through everything on this thread that I have missed.

After that, I will post the opinions/comments that were PMed to me directly.


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by Peter Dick
Great work on the survey. Let me make a few suggestions as promised.

Section IV
A. Jelqing

I believe that the answer options for #4 and #5 have been reversed.

Sorry about the error. Thanks for taking care of it Thunder. And to answer your question PG, I didn’t make any changes. I did add/ take away two or three words, but that was it.

Originally Posted by PD
B. Manual stretching

I believe that we have to ask how long guys hold each stretch. 30sec, 45sec, 60sec, etc.

I agree, this is an EXCELLENT idea. There is a catch, however. Are we talking about currently? Over my whole PE career? We can’t attribute someone’s past gains to their current stretch time.

Many guys, in fact, most guys do not stick to a consisent stretch time. I know I couldn’t answer this question. I think a good question for this would follow the same concept as this question:

2. IF you have used one particular type of stretch far more than any other during your PE career, please select it from the list below. Otherwise skip to the next question.
__ Standard stretch, straight out or at a higher angle.
__ Between-the-cheeks (BTC) stretch.
__ V-stretch.
__ JAI stretch.

PG is a better question creator than I. Hopefully he can come up with something.

Originally Posted by PD
On that same subject regarding pumping, clamping and hanging I thing we need to ask how many sets they do and how long each set is instead of just looking at total time. There is a big difference in clamping one 60 minute set and 12 five minute sets.

Again, I agree. Again, I think it should follow the same concept. I thought of this earlier (a few weeks ago), but it slipped my mind. Great Ideas PD. Thank you!

Originally Posted by PD
We also do not address split routines. Jelqing and stretching 30 minutes a day in one session may not be as effective as three 10 minute sessions spread out through the day.

On a personal note regarding clamping, I always do bends and squeezes when I clamp now. I didn’t start gaining a lot of girth until I incorporated these. There is nothing in the survey that address this issue although I believe it made a huge difference in my girth gains.

Peter, you make excellent points. Many men, such as redzulu, a new member here, made enormous girth gains from doing exercises while clamping. I definetly think we should create a question to address this issue.

Originally Posted by PD
I will also volunteer to be included in the pilot group, as I’m sure I’ll find a few more small issues when I take the survey rather than just skimming through it.
Once again great work, and let me know what else I can do to help out. :)

Thank you PD. I am very grateful for your contributions. Consider yourself a future pilot-tester ;) .

Notes for my refrence, and others:
* Add question regarding length of stretch time (i.e. intervals)
* Add question regarding length of hang/clamp/pump time (i.e. sets)
* Add question regarding split sessions
* Add question regarding exercises while clamped (i.e. bends and squeezes)


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by xenolith
Definitely add Ginko. Please.

Consider it added.

Notes for my reference, and others:
*Add gingko to list of supplements


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by Peter Dick
Originally Posted by PD
It occurred to me that we will not be able to determine anything about rest days with the survey as it is now.
The only thing we will know is how many days a week they do PE, but not how much rest they take in between. Doing PE Monday-Thursday with 3 days in a row off, is a big difference from doing PE Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. Maybe we need a day to heal or maybe we don’t. Right now we have no way of finding out.

1 on 1 off

2 on 1 off

3 on 1 off

5 on 2 off

7 on 0 off

Other_____

Based on reading the forums for more than 2 years I think I’m accurate in saying that 95% of
all guys on this forum fit in the first 5 options.

I agree, I think we could use a question like this. However, I don’t think it is testable. From personal experience, I have followed a routine similar to everyone that you listed. If I were taking the survey I wouldn’t know what to choose. I would love to see a question like this incorporated. Do you have any suggestions?


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
12 pages and I’m just arriving. If you’re still looking for feedback, I have a bit. Please forgive me if the points I mention have already been hashed out.

My first point is probably obvious. It is critical that responses for any given individual are somehow tagged as belonging to that individual, so that correlations among different responses for individuals can be drawn. This doesn’t necessarily mean storing user names, but some key must be applied to uniquely identify the respondent for each answer.

Before I comment on Modesto’s responses, I want to say thank you MM. I am glad that you “made it,” so to speak. Seeing multiple comments/posts from you is sure to bring great things to this survey. I was afraid you weren’t going to have enough time to add your comments. With that being said, now on to the fun part.

Originally Posted by MM
Section I:

1. I suggest renaming “erection quality” to “erection hardness.” That will avoid the need for explaining the difference between quality and angle, or other subjective factors. We may want to define “hardness” as rigidity and firmness to the touch.

2. Question 8 may be difficult to answer for guys who PE every day. It may be impossible to know whether they’re experiencing permanent flaccid gains or post workout pumps. I suppose we could try to correlate this with workout frequency to help judge the reliability of this answer.

3. Perhaps we could add a subjective question or two: How would you rate your overall satisfaction with your penis before PE? After PE? Answers could range from 1 (extremely unsatisfied) to 5 (extremely satisfied). How would you rate your penis’s appearance before and after? How would you rate yourself as a lover before/after?

1. 100 percent agree. I actually was going to point this out my self. I call it “erection strength,” but hardness seems better.

2. In my personal experience, the post workout pump doesn’t usually last all day. If it does last all day, everyday, then I would assume in the analysis we would state something along the lines of: “The guys who worked out everyday experienced a much larger flaccid penis.”

3. Excellent ideas! We don’t have any questions regarding the “psychological affects” of PE. I completely agree, we should add these questions.

Notes for my reference, and others:
*Change the terminology of “erection quality” — something we all agree on, perhaps hardness?
*Add subjective questions, something along the lines of:
-How would you rate your overall satisfaction with your penis before PE? After PE? During PE?
Answers range from 0 (I wish my penis would get hit by a car) to 10 (My friends call me Mandingo)
-How would you rate yourself as a lover before/after? 1 - 10
-How would you rate your penis' appearance before and after? 1 - 10


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

The next session is a tough one. Below is MM’s comments, and PG’s replies (along with my responses to both).

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

Section II

I really think this section needs work. The problem is that many guys use very different forms of PE throughout their PE careers. The techniques they choose are strongly affected by their success or failure using previous techniques. For example, I gained 0.5” BPEL my first 3 months doing manual only for minutes (maybe 1 hour, max) 5 days a week. Then my gains stopped, so I switched to hanging. I hanged 6 months for hours a day and gained nothing. See the problem? You can’t aggregate this data and expect to arrive at anything intelligible.

Originally Posted by Para-Goomba

>>>I gained 0.5” BPEL my first 3 months doing manual only for minutes (maybe 1 hour, max) 5 days a week. Then my gains stopped, so I switched to hanging. I hanged 6 months for hours a d and gained nothing. See the problem? You can’t aggregate this data and expect to arrive at anything intelligible<<<

Why would we not be able to arrive at anything intelligible if we used total hours spent on jelqing, manual stretching, and hanging as three predictors in a multiple regression across all participants who used these methods? There are still many confounds, yes, but I’m not sure that can be avoided in any survey. One of the important things about getting tons of participants is that we will have nice-sized groups of guys who used one exercise almost exclusively, allowing us to confirm or disconfirm any simple conclusions we might draw about the independent contributions of exercises to more complicated routines. It may be that complicated synergistic effects seem to be happening, or maybe not.

MM, you are right, there is definitely an error. Using the current list of questions, we would be attributing your manual stretching success to hanging. That wouldn’t work.

PG, I think your plan on the analyzing might work. But what you are suggesting could probably be simplified if we add/change some questions.

We will have to take care of this quick. As Thunder put it, the clock is ticking.

Maybe we could ask a broad, subjective question under each category:
How much of your gains do you attribute to X?

Originally Posted by MM
I suggest breaking up PE efforts into at least two categories: newbie exercises and senior exercises, where newbie exercises are defined as those forming a person’s first PE routine. Most experienced PE’ers will tell you that newbie gains are a whole different kind of thing than gains occurring later. I think the survey should reflect that, or at least should collect the right kind of data so that that statement can be tested.

MM, I hope you will return and follow up on this idea, because you completely lost me :confused: (remek prays for his similie to work for the first time)

Originally Posted by MM

You may in fact want to provide different categories for each new round of PE effort. Questions could go like this: What was your first routine? How long did you do it? What was your progress? What was your second routine? How long did you do it? WHat was your progress, etc. Only then can we separate the newbie effect (assuming there is one) from the effects of the routines.

This sounds awsome. You have me sold. But I am curious, how would we analyze this data? The questions would have to be formed precisely. PG, I remember you mentioning something about this earlier. You said the programmer, in fact, suggested asking the participants routine… We obviously can’t have the participant enter their routine into a big blank box (unless one of us plans on going through each answer), but we could possibly build a question that allows for something like this. What do you think?

Originally Posted by Para-Goomba
I don’t have time to work again on this until later tonight, but MM, thanks VERY much for the feedback! I haven’t read it all carefully yet, but most of the suggestions look extremely useful (and easy to add).

Before I go any further, I want to take another moment to show my appreciation for the feedback MM. When it comes to PE, I go to a very select few people for opinions and ideas. You are always one of my “number 1- go to guys.”

Notes for my reference, and others:
*Fix the attribution error, or attempt to (i.e. the survey is now set up allowing hanging gains to be attributed to jelqing gains)
*Build ideas on asking specific questions about routines. For example:
<<What was your first routine? How long did you do it? What was your progress? What was your second routine? How long did you do it? WHat was your progress, etc. >>


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

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