Thunder's Place

The big penis and mens' sexual health source, increasing penis size around the world.

The PE Survey results!

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A wise man once said, it is much easier to criticize a book then to write one.


Indeed. I agree. However, effort expended on something isn’t a gauge of its validity.

Having done some R&D work on various things, I know how it feels when something I had put a lot of effort into that looked like it would work didn’t pan out. Learn, adjust and make another, better one. It might land in the junk pile too. If that happens, then learn, adjust, and make another, better one. Eventually it works out.

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With that being said, I want to make it clear that I fully agree -
-The survey did not build facts, it built theories.
-It is a survey - and surveys are created to build ideas and theories. The first page of this article has the ideas and theories that the survey has built.


Ok, here’s a point where we differ. Data don’t build or suggest anything. People do these things, as you have done here.

>-In a scientific world these ideas and theories are put to the test. I will be doing this by creating another survey.

I hope you will. I tried to offer some suggestions in my previous post.

>I wish you would have posted this: hobby - The PE Survey results!
when I asked for help here: hobby - The PE Survey results!.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean since both links are the same URL, but I assume you’re suggesting I should have said something earlier. I’m not interested committing the time and effort needed to do a comprehensive survey. I mentioned that before.

I wish navarra had posted this when I asked for suggestions and advice here.

A wise man once said, “Shit in one hand and wish in the other. See which fills up first.” I have yet to comprehend the full meaning of that pearl of wisdom, but it certainly matches my experience in life. ;) We don’t always get what we wish for.

>Almost every question you had trouble answered asked on average. If it did not ask on average, the answer choices were made to fit “on average.”

I’m saying that I, and many others who have been PEing for years, can’t provide “an average” that is useful. You didn’t define average. Even if you had, an average wouldn’t be an accurate representation of what I’ve done over 3+ years.

If a guy runs a mile in 4 minutes and then sits down for 56 minutes, his average speed is a 1 mile per hour.

If grandpa takes 20 minutes to walk half a mile, stops and sleeps for 20 minutes, then manages another half mile in 20 minutes, his average speed is also 1 mile per hour. Are these equivalent?

As an example of my inability to provide a good answer, what did you want for session time? When I first started PE and was stretching/jelqing? Later, when doing other things? Sometimes I’ve spent minutes per day on average, other times hours per day on average. If I include breaks and lulls, and smudge it all out to a guestimatation of 3-5 or however minutes per day on average over the past years including off time, would that figure provide useful data for determining the optimum length of PE sessions or anything else? No. It would be meaningless. And that figure would even be a wild guess on my part unless I had kept detailed records. I haven’t.

Did you ask how many sessions were done per day?

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Now, you also critiqued my analyzing. I will be completely honest, I am not an A-class survey conductor or analyzer, yet. However, I do believe I made it quite clear that the results are what the data suggests (please see my clarification of the word “suggests” above.)


Yes, you said that. The data suggest nothing. They are numbers and can’t suggest anything. People interpreting the data suggest things.

>I absolutely agree there could definitely be other variables. In fact, in the actual “pills analysis:” I suggest two other possible variables: 1 - the number of votes in each group, 2 - the motivation of the “yes group.”

I gave another possibility. I’m sure there are more. Your association of pill use with gains, and apparent presumption of cause and effect, was inappropriate. You wrote, under number 11 in your results post:

“The people who use penis enlargement pills combined with exercises gained 43 percent more cubic inches than those who do not, which suggests that penis enlargement pills do help gains.”

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However, You didn’t answer these two questions:
How can you see the problem affecting the results? How big of a problem do you think it is?

Concerning girth measurements, your omission probably doesn’t matter much for individual changes over time. Most guys probably measure consistently. However, not specifying a measuring point will likely affect absolute size. We’ve seen this in other PE studies and surveys.

Some studies are NBP and others are BP. You can’t compare them. We in the PE community are probably even different from those. Here we press the ruler in harder. A doc or study technician taking a BP measurement would only lightly press into the fat pad compared to what we do. Girth here, if no other specification is mentioned, means midshaft girth, not the widest point. Some studies use the widest point.

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Many veterans and moderators claim “pills don’t work,” and “masturbation doesn’t affect gains.” In their advice, they pass their beliefs off as “the truth.”

Where is the evidence? What if everyone is wrong? What if they do affect gains? At the very least, I think we should stop advising people on things we aren’t sure of.


First, I like your questioning attitude.

Concerning the general attitude toward pills expressed here, what if I were to assert that Flintstone vitamins give good PE gains? Should members not advise people I’m fracking bonkers for suggesting such a thing? Should everyone wait for a survey or study demonstrating Flintstone’s don’t work (well, Betty might)? Of course not.

Some here have tried PE pills (nasty and ineffective things). Others are quite familiar with the alleged ingredients and the effects of those ingredients. They have tried them individually and in combinations with no anecdotal evidence indicating they have done anything to help increase size.

As for masturbating/ejaculating after a session, feel free to pursue the matter. If you do, please try to be objective. I’m not aware of any physiological mechanism from blowing a load that could even theoretically affect PE progress. IMO, it’s not worth studying any more than whether jelqing under a new moon or full moon makes a difference. But, you never know.

Originally Posted by hobby
The data suggest nothing. They are numbers and can’t suggest anything. People interpreting the data suggest things

I haven’t been following along, but this seems a little harsh. While what you’re saying is literally accurate, the convention in scientific writing is, unfortunately, to hide one’s authorship and say that the data suggest so-and-so. Everyone knows that this shorthand means that the author interprets the data in such-and-such a way.

Originally Posted by hobby
IMO, it’s not worth studying any more than whether jelqing under a new moon or full moon makes a difference.

Oh, really now! ;)

Originally Posted by Para-Goomba

I haven’t been following along, but this seems a little harsh. While what you’re saying is literally accurate, the convention in scientific writing is, unfortunately, to hide one’s authorship and say that the data suggest so-and-so. Everyone knows that this shorthand means that the author interprets the data in such-and-such a way.

Perhaps, but I am deliberately trying to point out here that such interpretation is occurring. “The data suggest” = “The author suggests.”

I believe what we’re discussing here is the veracity of the data.

When data acquisition parameters are sufficiently constrained, high veracity data results and when acquisition parameters are not sufficiently constrained, low veracity data results.

In the case of the former, the data speaks for itself. In the case of the latter, due to uncertain uncertainties, the data is mute, and people must speak for the data, which is to say, we must interpret the data. When we speak for the data, something gets lost in the translation, much better to have the data speak for itself.

Unfortunately, the data acquisition parameters of the PE Survey were not sufficiently constrained to allow the data to speak for itself. I KNOW that some of my responses to the Survey would misrepresent my experience (i.e. would be INTERPRETED wrong) due to insufficiently constraining language in the question. I found the majority of my difficulty in answering accurately about my PE experience within the language of the Survey due to a lack of consideration for punctuated PE practice (as hobby has made clear was a problem for him too).

It wouldn’t surprise me if many of those that started the Survey but did not complete it did so out of a frustration over a sense of a cumulative misrepresentation of their PE experience. I considered such, but chose to complete the Survey in order to have some credibility when discussing it later (i.e. now). As with so much of PE, we flop around hoping to make progress, hoping not to flop backwards…IMO, with the PE survey, we flopped forward, but I KNOW we can flop in a MUCH more forward direction by using more constraining language and with input and help from the rest of the Forum.

Remek, thank you very much. I think Thunder had it right…

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
We should have offered more in the beginning.


You deserve nothing but praise for your effort. I hope that you’ll work to make a second version that I know could be much better. I hope we all will help him with it too.

xeno


originally: 6.5" BPEL x 5.0" EG (ms); currently: 9.375" BPEL x 6.75" EG (ms)

Hidden details: Finding xeno: a penis tale; Some photos: Tiger

Tell me, o monks; what cannot be achieved through efforts. - Siddhartha Gautama


Last edited by xenolith : 08-20-2005 at .

I think that, before an new survey is released, its questions should first be vetted by at least some subset of our members (including those most likely to question its results). Otherwise, no progress will be made.

Remek, you put forth a great effort here. I think the best lesson to draw from this experience is to get feedback on the questions and survey techniques before releasing the survey.


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
I think that, before an new survey is released, its questions should first be vetted by at least some subset of our members (including those most likely to question its results). Otherwise, no progress will be made.

Remek, you put forth a great effort here. I think the best lesson to draw from this experience is to get feedback on the questions and survey techniques before releasing the survey.

I volunteer to help vett the questions.


originally: 6.5" BPEL x 5.0" EG (ms); currently: 9.375" BPEL x 6.75" EG (ms)

Hidden details: Finding xeno: a penis tale; Some photos: Tiger

Tell me, o monks; what cannot be achieved through efforts. - Siddhartha Gautama

I also. I’ve done a lot of survey design and enjoy it.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
I think that, before an new survey is released, its questions should first be vetted by at least some subset of our members (including those most likely to question its results). Otherwise, no progress will be made.

Remek, you put forth a great effort here. I think the best lesson to draw from this experience is to get feedback on the questions and survey techniques before releasing the survey.

You probably didn’t see this thread: Help me, help PE! before the PE survey was opened.

I will admit, there is definetly mistakes. But I personally (looking at all the results, and seeing the consistency throughout the data) think the theories have legitimate backing. But again, we must do more testing to prove this.

More testing… xeno, Modesto, Para, - I like all of your ideas. A group effort is definetly needed if we want a legitimate survey, worth of publishing. That is one thing I wish I had more of - people to help.

Here are some ideas that are floating around my head — they are clutttered, so bare with the bouncing around of topics.
1) I bought a few “How to build, conduct, and analyze a survey” books. I will be reading these before I start the next survey.

2) Having a GROUP of people all pitch in their ideas and thoughts… Many hands make light work.
Thunder listed quite a few people that he thinks would be good for the job, including himself. I would love to have you three - xeno, Modesto, Para, — helping out.

3)Wiki - I have a list of questions in mind. I can post them all on Wiki. Then the people who are willing to help out could edit and add more questions until the list of questions reaches everyones desire. This could all be done using “Thunders Place’s Wiki.”

4)Using Wiki again, the committee could conduct a full analysis. Each person chiping in their ideas and thoughts. Wiki would have to be adjusted to a certain degree — allowing only the committee edit and see the analysis.

5) Thunder mentioned earlier that Pill pushers could have taken the survey multiple times. Although for multiple reasons I don’t think this happened, there is nothing from stopping it from happening the next time around. We could place the survey here on Thunders, and only allow Thunders Place members to take the survey… Once a member has taken it once, the survey records their data and doesn’t allow that member to take it again…

In all actuality, I don’t want this next survey to be “Remek’s second PE survey.” I want it to be something all of us at Thunder's, can be proud of.
A survey worthy of publication.
A thunders place survey, conducted by not only me, but many of us. The project would be a very long process (6 months to a year). But I think the end results would be VERY well worth it…

Xeno?
Modesto?
Para?

What do you think?

How about you mr. hobbit?


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Sounds good. The first step, of course, is to identify the burning PE questions we care most about answering.

I don’t know how to use a Wiki, but I can learn if we use that format.

OK. Lets do a second PE survey. :)


:buttrock: The Peter Dick method :buttrock:

Then, BPEL:7.500"x5.500"

Now, BPEL:8.375"X6.750"

remek

Thank you for spending a lot of your time on this survey!

Did the data show witch excercises are the best? This has been asked before but I did not find any answer.

Originally Posted by kristian69
remek

Thank you for spending a lot of your time on this survey!

Did the data show witch excercises are the best? This has been asked before but I did not find any answer.

Youre welcome kristian.

Infortunately, those questions were very vague, and very hard to “analyze.” We will have to come up with something in the next survey to figure out which type of exercises work the best.


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Good to hear PG and PD.

Wiki is very simple to use. Try it out (it will only take you 30 seconds). Click on this link - Penis Enlargement Wiki … Then click on one of the “edit” buttons.

You will see that you are able to edit the text, and then return it back to normal… Wiki is basically a program used for a “group project” — such as the second PE survey.

BTW, it was Tube’s idea to use Wiki. After realizing how easy wiki is to use, I completely agree with him — it is the best way to go on any online group project.


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

I’d be happy to help, Remek.


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

Well I guess I;m not a vet yet but I have found my own groove so to speak with getting more gains after this bitch of a plateau and it wasn’t hanging (which helped, I learned a lot, maybe gained a little bit) but it was good old manual stretching combined with some light jelqing for a bit every night and some kegels. The manual stretchs I found to loosen up my tunica and whole outer shaft was the good old V-Stretch using my thumb tft is much more pliable now and hangs much lower ever since I got serious about making tunica gains my priority through these manual stretchs. I also did a little Inverted V-Stretches which has a distinct feel to it that could help with the some hard to put force/stress parts of the shaft/tunica for PE. o press down all along the shaft to loosen up what we call the septum (that hard guitar like string thing in the middle of the shaft) and the killer is tons of those combined with tons of A-Stretchs every day with the DLD BLasters. This just kills my tunica on the outer shaft and even a little ways in and the inner shaft as I feel it. My whole sha

I think I am just now beginning to make real tunica gains and like DLD said they seem to be coming crazy fast, only time will tell just how fast they will continue to come and if this is the magic cycle I have been looking for to keep getting consitent gains without plateauing anymore. :) It seems my lig gains are almost at a end which is what I got in the beginning months of PE.

I’ll keep you guys informed and write up some good info on how I do A-Stretchs and V-Stretches and why I do them and why I do them the way I do them if you guys want. I can get very heavy into exact details when explaining things sometimes to make things overly clear and at the same time also try to explain the thing from another angle by getting to the point quickly and trying to be as simple to understand as possible but reiterating the key details to focus on I believe which could help others gain and learn quickly perhaps. :)

More to come…


Last edited by LoveMachine : 08-21-2005 at .
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