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Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

Originally Posted by wadzilla
But let’s take this a step further…if (as we seem to agree) that optimal gains come at relatively lower levels of erection, then what does that say about, (1) clamping, (2) erect pumping, (3) erect bends, etc.????

I suspect that it might say, “Enormous risk, minimal possible return.”


I know ttt and all the clampers who place clamps at peak erection and all the guys who erect bend and jelq at very high erections aren’t going to like what I say here. I absolutely agree with you.

Reports on tendons and ligaments undergoing peak tension (loaded; meaning muscle strongly contracted) under go tension-induced remodeling that increases collagen fiber size and not length. This is a protective mechanism to reduce the chance of traumatic tendon rupture or ripping from the bone. I think the same happens with high intensity PE focusing on the peak erect tunica.

The tension stress is very high pressure at peak erection (much like trying to push more fluid into a closed end copper pipe) with maybe small amounts of radius change (in the tunica, not the copper pipe). By LaPlace’s Law this will cause large increases in tunica tension. But at what cost. I believe that all three of the methods you suggest have a high potential for injury if done incorrectly. Even though the mechanism of repair of injury is the same (with the exception of a much higher number of inflammatory cells; IPR), is it worth the cost? I can only answer that for myself.

This forum has readers (and posters) with very high motivation to get larger quicker. So we have to be careful of what we say or how we say it. These high intensity maneuvers should be discussed with the proviso and warnings that you should not attempt these without long-term conditioning with basic PE routines and then only with great care to reduce the chance of injury.

I do disagree regarding the 102% erection and do agree with ttt that it can be achieved. If you measure your penis at peak erection several times without penis rings and get a consistent average, this average will be your 100% value. Any increase above this is going to be greater than 100%.

Originally Posted by wadzilla
Perhaps I took for granted what others might think regarding the term “erection.” I am not talking about subcutaneous fluid buildup (that’s more akin to “swelling”). I’m talking about the mechanism of a true erection. So once your CC/CS has fully filled with blood - i.e., “100%,” then there ain’t no more. And, by the way, this state of true 100% does not require a pump or clamp in a healthy man - just extreme arousal and, perhaps, some “edging.” But it’s an all-natural process. Any size you get beyond that (in the short term, of course) is liquid - and that liquid is not blood.

So many guys here seem to think that if you can force the penis to become harder & harder & harder - i.e., clamps, pumps, multiple clamps, etc. - that that’s going to somehow “trigger growth.” I would argue that the harder a penis becomes, the more non-compliant the tunica becomes, therefore the more difficult it becomes to achieve growth.

And you seem to misunderstand the admonition to avoid turtling. That has nothing to do with your mythical “102% erections.” It’s simply the concept of trying to maintain semi-inflation (“plumpness”) for as long as possible post-workout. And, guess what….that’s in a non-fully-erect penis (with, therefore, a more compliant tunica)…..at the risk of drawer further sarcasm from you, YES, I also wrote about that before: mild to moderate, long-term stresses being uniformly maintained against the tunica in a semi-erect state slowly deforming the tunica - or causing “creep,” whichever word you prefer. :)


I believe you are right on target with at least what I have posted on this thread. Others have differed. We’ve have disagreements on this thread (which has become quite long) but I think there has been some better understanding by all regarding mechanisms. How these connective tissue mechanisms apply to different PE maneuvers at different levels of erection is what has caused the most lively (and fun) debate.

I personally have no feelings about turtling (other than as a PI) one way or the other.

Originally Posted by wadzilla

So once your CC/CS has fully filled with blood - i.e., “100%,” then there ain’t no more. And, by the way, this state of true 100% does not require a pump or clamp in a healthy man - just extreme arousal and, perhaps, some “edging.” But it’s an all-natural process. Any size you get beyond that (in the short term, of course) is liquid - and that liquid is not blood.

The way I view the tunica, I would guess that you can have greater than 100% erection, if you supply greater force on the tunica than you normally are able.

The tunica has some elastic properties. This is discussed in the study that Avocet found, (which I will link below, since I don’t think anyone has yet).

An elastic material has a property called modulus of elasticity, which describes how much the material will elongate when a tensile force is applied. If it takes a lot of force for small elongation, that material has a high modulus, and visa versa.

Elastic by definition means that it can deform and return to its orginal position. If you stretch beyond the elastic range (beyond 100% elongation), then you have begun plastic deformation, meaning the material will not go back to its original shape.

So I picture the tunica as a fairly high modulus elastic material. If you picture the neoprene fabric of wet suit, I think that works.

So when your penis starts to become engorged, I believe you are not intially stretching the tunica, but unfolding it until it gets to it’s unstretched circumference. At this point you are partially engorged. Then, blood pressure increases which increases tension on the tunica, and causes a little bit of stretch. When you are at full erection, that does not necessarily mean you have reached full elongation of the tunica. You could still be in the elastic range. So, increasing internal pressure above normal, could cause a little more stretch.


Horny Bastard

Originally Posted by mravg
The way I view the tunica, I would guess that you can have greater than 100% erection, if you supply greater force on the tunica than you normally are able.
The tunica has some elastic properties. This is discussed in the study that Avocet found, (which I will link below, since I don’t think anyone has yet).
An elastic material has a property called modulus of elasticity, which describes how much the material will elongate when a tensile force is applied. If it takes a lot of force for small elongation, that material has a high modulus, and visa versa.
Elastic by definition means that it can deform and return to its orginal position. If you stretch beyond the elastic range (beyond 100% elongation), then you have begun plastic deformation, meaning the material will not go back to its original shape.

So I picture the tunica as a fairly high modulus elastic material. If you picture the neoprene fabric of wet suit, I think that works.
So when your penis starts to become engorged, I believe you are not intially stretching the tunica, but unfolding it until it gets to it’s unstretched circumference. At this point you are partially engorged. Then, blood pressure increases which increases tension on the tunica, and causes a little bit of stretch. When you are at full erection, that does not necessarily mean you have reached full elongation of the tunica. You could still be in the elastic range. So, increasing internal pressure above normal, could cause a little more stretch.


I did pull that paper, if you want a copy I can email the pdf to you.

At peak erection I don’t think elastic fibers (of which the contribution of elastic fibers to collagen fibers is quite low) play a role at peak erection. Yes the tunica is a viscoelastic structure. However, stretch beyond the peak erect state is not a function of elastic fibers, but in fact is super tension stretch of collagen fibers, much like in the heavily loaded muscle tendon.

Originally Posted by mravg

I think the answer lies in the observation that pumping creates so much more lymph build up than clamping. So obviously there is something different between increasing internal pressure compared to decreasing external pressure. So why is there such a difference in lymph?

My thought is that lymph build up from clamping is specifically due to trauma. Lymph build up from pumping is somewhat do to trauma, but at low pumping levels it is due to pulling force of the vacuum. Your thoughts?

Originally Posted by wadzilla

There is no such thing as any erection beyond 100% - whether you pump, clamp, pump with clamps on, wrap a clamp around your pump.or stick the pump up your ass, etc.

Wad, it is my theory due to experience that stress over time allows the tunica to be come pliable and stretch past 100%. It is like stretching your hamstrings, I can barley touch my toes in the first 2 minutes, but after 15 minutes, I am lying my stomach flat on my thigh reaching way past my toes. Now if I continue to due this regularly my starting point will be much farther along. This just seems intuitive?

Certainly you see the same thing while stretching your penis, why wouldn’t it be the same for girth?

Wad and Pudendum,

I said this in a prior post, the goal would not be to find the maximum amount of pressure the penis or tunica can withstand, but the least that provides for growth.

I know that the Sickle-cell anemia models point to a low but continual pressure at work.

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
Because the increased internal pressure (clamping) has no big influence on the tissue between the skin and the tunica.

By contrast, if you pump, the tunica is indirectly affected: the pulling effect is transmitted from the skin to the tissue under the skin to the tunica. Therefore, tissue pressure (Pt in the equation) decreases and that favors filtration of fluid from the blood into the tissue, according to starlings equation. I’ll try to remember that equation as good as I can (pudendum correct me if necessary):

V/t = C (Pi - Pt) - r * (pi - pt)

Where V/t is the Volume of fluid filtered across the semipermeable microvascular blood membrane, C is a Conductivity factor, r is a reflection coefficient for the macromolecules at the membranes depending on the size of the macromolecules relative to the pore size of the membrane, P are hydrostatic pressures, p are oncotic (= colloid osmotic) pressures (resulting from macromolecules), I is intravascular and t is tissue).

That’s why.

Also, you can generate far higher internal pressure with clamping with far less edema being generated.

However, higher isn’t always better.

I think that one of the big variables in PE is the tunica. I think someone quoted a study where they said there can be a huge variation it the number of layers and thickness for different men.

I think that the tougher your tunica, the more a technique like jelquing, (which allows you to stress small areas of an “unloaded” tunica) or leveraged stretching (like Wantsmores, which use a blunt edge to focus force into an “unloaded” tunica or hanging, which again allows stretching an “unloaded” tunica.

What I mean by “unloaded” is again, I believe due to the woven structure of the tunica, its a lot like a seat belt, when its loose, its stretchable, when pulled tight, its very solid, except its more like a fabric “woven” of seat belts.

So the more “inflated” the tunica is, the stronger it is structurally AT THAT MOMENT, not including the potential for tissue toughening as a physiologic response to high stress (different issue than I’m discussing). I think effective PE produces a certain amount of “tissue derangement” or spreading of the “seat belt” threads within the tunica “fabric”. I believe it this “derangement” that is critical to gains, and if the tunica is very strong, unreasonably high levels of pressure on the “loaded” fabric would be needed to produce any derangement.

That’s why I believe if a guy isn’t making gains with reasonable levels of force from clamping or pumping (and ruling out over training and neg PIs) that I think he would respond better to unloaded methods that focus force into small areas of the tunica.


Last edited by sparkyx : 01-08-2008 at .

Originally Posted by pudendum
I think the jury’s still out on this one. Something tells me you and I are going to agree to disagree on this one. Thunder too I’ll bet, though he might be cracking.

I always crack if the evidence is overwhelming :)


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by sparkyx
I believe if a guy isn’t making gains with reasonable levels of force from clamping or pumping (and ruling out over training and neg PIs) that I think he would respond better to unloaded methods that focus force into small areas of the tunica.

Well said.

Excellent post.

You’re very clear and your logic is sound - it accounts for the variation’s in individual anatomy. Which was my frustration earlier in the thread. I don’t think one can say “Pumping is better” or “Clamping is better” across the board (even in Italian). I think each individual responds differently, which is why some things work better for some and not others.

This is a great thread, though. Lot’s of good thinking going on.


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
I think each individual responds differently, which is why some things work better for some and not others.

I agree, with this statement. I think if you are breaking down lifting techniques for instance, it is good to know the reasons why things work, but it is not always necessary. People get wedded to one method or another and get offended if someone says they are doing it wrong or not doing it in the best way.

Certainly one exercise does not work for all and if you find something that works, keep doing it until it doesn’t work anymore, but please share the information too.

Again like the gym, just about any form of exercise will help you, just do not over due it and hurt yourself. Now if you are an elite athlete trying to get that last tenth of a second off of the 100 meter or if you want to try to gain 2 inches on you dick in 4 months then there is a real need for a science. But other than that, you can wander along and make gains and do well, you just might waste a little time.

Originally Posted by mravg
The way I view the tunica, I would guess that you can have greater than 100% erection, if you supply greater force on the tunica than you normally are able.
The tunica has some elastic properties. This is discussed in the study that Avocet found, (which I will link below, since I don’t think anyone has yet).
An elastic material has a property called modulus of elasticity, which describes how much the material will elongate when a tensile force is applied. If it takes a lot of force for small elongation, that material has a high modulus, and visa versa.
Elastic by definition means that it can deform and return to its orginal position. If you stretch beyond the elastic range (beyond 100% elongation), then you have begun plastic deformation, meaning the material will not go back to its original shape.

So I picture the tunica as a fairly high modulus elastic material. If you picture the neoprene fabric of wet suit, I think that works.
So when your penis starts to become engorged, I believe you are not intially stretching the tunica, but unfolding it until it gets to it’s unstretched circumference. At this point you are partially engorged. Then, blood pressure increases which increases tension on the tunica, and causes a little bit of stretch. When you are at full erection, that does not necessarily mean you have reached full elongation of the tunica. You could still be in the elastic range. So, increasing internal pressure above normal, could cause a little more stretch.


Iguana started a thread sometime back presenting an abstract of a study of the tunica where he was interested in applying some of the findings to practical PE methods. (Weight/Math Question - ???) The abstract was rather sparse with information and the purpose of the study was unclear. I promised to get a copy of the whole paper. I finally did today (I had to dig it out of the library stacks). This study directly addresses some of your ideas here.

They looked at tunicas from cadavers. Yeah it’s from dead guys penises. But because the connectives tissue is predominantly non-cellular fibers and even after these guy (and their dicks) were pickled in formalin, their tunica architecture remained intact and close to that of us live guys. They were concerned about tunica rupture and the tolerances of it to pressure tensions. So they exposed the penises and tunica parts to several pressure stresses.

They took pieces of tunica and with a special device (a tensioometer) were able to expose it to measurable pressures and then to hold this stretch so they could prepare it for viewing by microscope. They compared the collagen and elastic fiber at rest and while stretched. They saw that the tunica is mainly collagen and only a small part elastic tissue. The collagen fibers undulate like the look of a side winding snake. The elastic fiber component run longitudinally attached to the bends in the undulations. It appears that the elastic fiber pull the collagen fibers into this sidewinder snake look when the tunica is at rest. (see the top panel of the attached file)

When the tunica was stretched by pressures at about 375 mm Hg, the collagen fibers pulled straight just like the elastic fibers and they run parallel. They also found that if the pressure tension was allowed to return to rest before the tunica was prepared for microscopic viewing, the tunica fibers returned to this same rest orientation.

When the pressures exceeded 750 mm Hg, the undulation orientation of the collagen and the elastic fibers is destroyed and does return to the rest orientation position. (See the bottom panel of the attached file, the broken elastic fibers stick out like hair).

They also looked at the elasticity coefficient of the tunica. Even though the tunica is predominantly made up of collagen fibers, the elasticity coefficient of the tunica as whole is mid way between that of the collagen and elastic fibers individually. They believe that this is due to that undulation pattern of the collagen fibers in the tunica at rest. This fiber “slack” adds to the elasticity of the tunica as a whole.

I think this orientation makes the tunica the “high modulus elastic” tissue you described. The “unfolding” you describe is the straightening of the undulating collagen fibers. You’ll have to educate me about the skeletal structure of a piece of neoprene, but from what you describe unfolding must be true.

I don’t agree that at peak erection you have not reached full elongation. If collagen fiber elongation is not near maximum when the tunica compliance at peak erection is so very low, it’s damn close. Yes, you can stretch above 100%, but as pressure rises and tunica wall tension rises, the risk of tunica damage rises as well.

This is an interesting study. There is other information that I will post in Iguana’s thread.

Bitsch M, et al. The elasticity and the tensile strength of the tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa. Journal of Urology 143 (1990) 642 - 5.

mravg - I think your assessment is correct.

Attached Images
Tunica orientation.jpg
(18.0 KB, 63 views)

Originally Posted by SteadyGains
Wad, it is my theory due to experience that stress over time allows the tunica to be come pliable and stretch past 100%. It is like stretching your hamstrings, I can barley touch my toes in the first 2 minutes, but after 15 minutes, I am lying my stomach flat on my thigh reaching way past my toes. Now if I continue to due this regularly my starting point will be much farther along. This just seems intuitive?

Certainly you see the same thing while stretching your penis, why wouldn’t it be the same for girth?


There is a difference. When you stress your hamstring muscles (and specifically the tendons and sheaths) to touch your toes, you are stretching against an unloaded muscle. The tunica at peak erection is loaded. The difference is critical. The tendons elongate (as I have mentioned before) from connective tissue remodeling at a longer fiber length. The tension added to the tunica at peak erection leads to tension-induced connective tissue remodeling at a larger fiber diameter not length (stronger not longer).

Originally Posted by sparkyx
Also, you can generate far higher internal pressure with clamping with far less edema being generated.

However, higher isn’t always better.

I think that one of the big variables in PE is the tunica. I think someone quoted a study where they said there can be a huge variation it the number of layers and thickness for different men.

I think that the tougher your tunica, the more a technique like jelquing, (which allows you to stress small areas of an “unloaded” tunica) or leveraged stretching (like Wantsmores, which use a blunt edge to focus force into an “unloaded” tunica or hanging, which again allows stretching an “unloaded” tunica.

What I mean by “unloaded” is again, I believe due to the woven structure of the tunica, its a lot like a seat belt, when its loose, its stretchable, when pulled tight, its very solid, except its more like a fabric “woven” of seat belts.

So the more “inflated” the tunica is, the stronger it is structurally AT THAT MOMENT, not including the potential for tissue toughening as a physiologic response to high stress (different issue than I’m discussing). I think effective PE produces a certain amount of “tissue derangement” or spreading of the “seat belt” threads within the tunica “fabric”. I believe it this “derangement” that is critical to gains, and if the tunica is very strong, unreasonably high levels of pressure on the “loaded” fabric would be needed to produce any derangement.

That’s why I believe if a guy isn’t making gains with reasonable levels of force from clamping or pumping (and ruling out over training and neg PIs) that I think he would respond better to unloaded methods that focus force into small areas of the tunica.


I agree.

It looks as though the tunica structure is not woven like a seat belt. The post I just made regarding the tunica orientation with undulating collagen fibers suggests otherwise. BUT, this does not in anyway dilute your premise.

Nice post.

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
You’re very clear and your logic is sound - it accounts for the variation’s in individual anatomy. Which was my frustration earlier in the thread. I don’t think one can say “Pumping is better” or “Clamping is better” across the board (even in Italian). I think each individual responds differently, which is why some things work better for some and not others.


I think this is correct to a point. If someone is performing high intensity PE and making no gains, I am concerned that it is because of the building of stronger thicker connective tissue fibers. I think that even unloaded tunica tension may not be successful if performed at this time (though I may be wrong). I believe this is the point where the decon break is a factor. I believe that after collagen fiber diameter decreases, lower erection level PE would be more successful.

I’ll stick my neck out to say that very high intensity PE against a loaded tunica (peak erection) may have short term successes but I believe that unloaded tensions (meaning at a lower erection level) are far more beneficial and have a higher chance of yielding success.

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
This is a great thread, though.


You can not write the information presented in this thread as being useless because of individual variability.


Last edited by pudendum : 01-09-2008 at .
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