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Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

That’s great info pud, thanks.

When I compared to a wetsuit, I wasn’t referring to the actual structure, just the idea of how it can seem really tight, for example around your arm, but if you flex, it still stretches.

What I am wondering about is how the drawing you posted translates into 3 dimensions. In other words, how pulling longitudinally effects the fiber orientation in the radial direction, or visa versa.

Also, I wonder how that structure is modified from PE induced growth. I have heard the theory in the past, that breaking the elastin fibers causes a gain in flaccid size by allowing the unfolding, but what exactly needs to happen to cause erect gains?


Horny Bastard

Well this is very confusing with positive and negative arguments and a allot of great information to absorb. I want to buy a pump one minute while reading and then I think that clamping is the answer. Can we do a pole on what worked for the brothers on thunders. I don’t know how to establish a pole on this site. A pole may aid in a members decision to pump or clamp.

example:

Did pumping work for you in girth gains? yes/no
Did clamping work for you in girth gains? yes/no

This will allow us to get stats on both.

It is never to late to learn a new trick, gg. Try starting a new poll in the polls forum. You do it just like any other new thread, and then there is a box you check that says “add a poll to this thread” or something. You’ll see it is pretty self explanatory.

PM me if you run into problems.


Horny Bastard

Originally Posted by mravg
That’s great info pud, thanks.
When I compared to a wetsuit, I wasn’t referring to the actual structure, just the idea of how it can seem really tight, for example around your arm, but if you flex, it still stretches.
What I am wondering about is how the drawing you posted translates into 3 dimensions. In other words, how pulling longitudinally effects the fiber orientation in the radial direction, or visa versa.
Also, I wonder how that structure is modified from PE induced growth. I have heard the theory in the past, that breaking the elastin fibers causes a gain in flaccid size by allowing the unfolding, but what exactly needs to happen to cause erect gains?


The tunicas they studied were fixed in formalin (stretched or unstressed) and then sectioned into viewable thicknesses. There are definitely two layers in the tunica; an inner layer with circumstantially directed fibers and an outer with longitudinal directed fibers. They do not identify which layer their microscopic sections were taken from. I would believe that the collagen and elastic fiber orientation would be no different in either layer since the tunica expands in two directions with engorgement.

I believe the effects of lower erection PE would be to increase the collagen and elastic fiber length and that the undulations would be wider to fold these longer collagen fibers when the tunica is at rest. I don’t think that ‘breaking” elastic fibers should be a goal. This folded orientation appears to be important and when the elastic fibers are destroyed, tunica fiber “folding” is disrupted. That can’t be a good thing. This new information reinforces my concern regarding the risk of high intensity “loaded” tunica tension PE.

Thanks for clarifying your neoprene example.

Originally Posted by gg43
Well this is very confusing with positive and negative arguments and a allot of great information to absorb. I want to buy a pump one minute while reading and then I think that clamping is the answer. Can we do a pole on what worked for the brothers on thunders. I don’t know how to establish a pole on this site. A pole may aid in a members decision to pump or clamp.

example:

Did pumping work for you in girth gains? yes/no
Did clamping work for you in girth gains? yes/no

This will allow us to get stats on both.


There was a thread started within the last week (and for some reason at this late hour with blurred vision my searches are not successful) that is polling this exact information (at least if my memory is not shot). Help me on this guys.

You need to understand that not every thread or post on this forum is going to result in immediate usable PE advice. This thread was started to get a better understanding of the mechanisms behind clamping and pumping and why are they different. The results are confusing; my head is spinning as well at times. Posting results is important, but it will not answer the questions why. We know PE works, we’re trying to figure out why.

Originally Posted by pudendum
When the pressures exceeded 750 mm Hg, the undulation orientation of the collagen and the elastic fibers is destroyed and does return to the rest orientation position. (See the bottom panel of the attached file, the broken elastic fibers stick out like hair).

This is very interesting.

Do you think that “Showers” we subject to higher pressures at some point?

Does it also explain growth in flaccid length from PE?

Originally Posted by pudendum
I do disagree regarding the 102% erection and do agree with ttt that it can be achieved. If you measure your penis at peak erection several times without penis rings and get a consistent average, this average will be your 100% value. Any increase above this is going to be greater than 100%.


I would define peak erection in a different manner:

The maximum erection that one can achieve by stimulation.

Even using this definition I would say that more than peak erection is possible, and I can prove it (only) with my own clamping experience (because I don’t have any fluid build-up if I clamp. The results are beyond any doubt and others had the same experience before me.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by pudendum
There is a difference. When you stress your hamstring muscles (and specifically the tendons and sheaths) to touch your toes, you are stretching against an unloaded muscle. The tunica at peak erection is loaded. The difference is critical. The tendons elongate (as I have mentioned before) from connective tissue remodeling at a longer fiber length. The tension added to the tunica at peak erection leads to tension-induced connective tissue remodeling at a larger fiber diameter not length (stronger not longer).

I agree that the model I presented is not the best, but as far as PE, I can experience the same pliability gain from low level clamping or pumping. There is some load, I agree, but the pliability gain may be a factor of time than intense pressure. Then when maximum force is applied, the expansion is greater.

Are you saying the tunica is not pliable? Or not pliable under maximum stress? I guess I cannot under stand how it can be disputed? I have clamped to over an inch or more of solid base girth with absolutely no fluid.

Of course we can only repeat any other paragraph that this is not for newbies. Newbies stick to the newbie routines! Otherwise read and think. Be careful, you have only one dick. No use making it big but non-functional.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by SteadyGains
Are you saying the tunica is not pliable? Or not pliable under maximum stress? I guess I cannot under stand how it can be disputed? I have clamped to over an inch or more of solid base girth with absolutely no fluid.

I am with you, Steady.

Pudendum is an academic mind (smart ass, as ThunderSS noticed), but without experience in neither pumping nor clamping if I remember correctly.

Pe is pretty much an empirical “science”. We are trying to work on the theoretical background in this thread, but must keep in mind that the theories should not contradict our experience.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by gg43
Well this is very confusing with positive and negative arguments and a allot of great information to absorb. I want to buy a pump one minute while reading and then I think that clamping is the answer. Can we do a pole on what worked for the brothers on thunders. I don’t know how to establish a pole on this site. A pole may aid in a members decision to pump or clamp.

Example:

Did pumping work for you in girth gains? Yes/no
Did clamping work for you in girth gains? Yes/no

This will allow us to get stats on both.

As I said, I think just about everything works. You just need to do it consistently. I have to admit that I gave up jelqing a while ago, but it has me considering it once again.

Originally Posted by wadzilla
And you seem to misunderstand the admonition to avoid turtling. That has nothing to do with your mythical “102% erections.” It’s simply the concept of trying to maintain semi-inflation (“plumpness”) for as long as possible post-workout. And, guess what.that’s in a non-fully-erect penis (with, therefore, a more compliant tunica).at the risk of drawer further sarcasm from you, YES, I also wrote about that before: mild to moderate, long-term stresses being uniformly maintained against the tunica in a semi-erect state slowly deforming the tunica - or causing “creep,” whichever word you prefer. :)

No - I was generally suggesting in the original sens to never let it turtle (pe-weights, ads, adc etc.).

And I am not trying to be sarcastic. Sorry.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
I am with you, Steady.

Pudendum is an academic mind (smart ass, as ThunderSS noticed), but without experience in neither pumping nor clamping if I remember correctly.

Pe is pretty much an empirical “science”. We are trying to work on the theoretical background in this thread, but must keep in mind that the theories should not contradict our experience.

It reminds me of the academics arguing whether steroids worked or not (70’s).

Pudendum seems very open minded and a great thinker, but I think to apply all his knowledge he has to take things into his own hands, so to speak.

I agree this is a good thread, I like to ground it in the empirical as well.

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
Nope. I’d rather you found a College of Bullshit at this particular point in time ttt. I seem to be running into a lot of that lately. Nothing to do with you or this thread though. But I could be the Dean of Bullshit with no problem. :)

Can I teach at your College? - When can I start?


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by pudendum
I hope you don’t mind, but I’m going to correct something you said. As I said in an earlier post, lymph is the fluid in lymph vessels that drain to lymph nodes and ultimately back into the blood circulation. Fluid outside cells is called extracellular fluid (ECF). When ECF increases and causes swelling (aka, fluid build up) it is called edema. This edema fluid will overtime enter the lymph channels and “become” lymph. It may sounds like a case of semantics, but this is the more correct terminology. It’s kinda like capitalizing Kegel, it’s just what it’s called.

In a couple of posts ttt and I talked about the factors that cause fluid to leave the blood vessels (at the capillaries) and become ECF (and if too much, edema). It is a balance between 2 factors. One is the pressure difference between inside of the capillaries (which is 30 - 50 mm Hg) and outside the capillaries (which can be between -3 to 5 mm Hg). This difference would cause the fluid in the blood to exit the vessels and become ECF. The other factor is caused by the differences between the amount of proteins inside (high) and outside (low) the capillaries. Blood proteins do not pass out of the capillary. This difference in proteins tends to draw water back into the blood vessels by osmosis and “holds on” to it; water travels back into the capillary because amount of water is higher outside the vessel and lower inside the blood because of the proteins. (Mravg - this is a difference between hydrostatic pressure and oncotic pressure).

The balance between these 2 factors in normal situations keeps fluid inside the blood vessels. There is a small leak normally and this is why there is a lymphatic system in the first place; take ECF back to the blood and keep the space outside of the cells relatively “dry.”

Pumping and clamping alter this balance.

Pumping causes the pressure outside the capillaries to become very negative. This causes the pressure difference between inside and outside to become even larger. This causes fluid to exit and increase ECF. As pumping is sustained, the negative pressure difference remains high and over time fluid builds up (edema).

Clamping increases the pressure in both the arteries and veins so that the pressure difference across the capillaries gets higher and fluid would leave into the the ECF. The difference between clamping and pumping is that the clamps keep the ECF from moving around and leave the penis. Because of this, pressure outside the capillaries rises quickly, balancing the pressure difference and the fluid loss will be small. The other thing is that clamp times are short, so the time for fluid loss is also short.

I think this is the reason for the differences in fluid build up (edema) between pumping and clamping. I hope this is clear.

The main reason is that in pumping the primary pressure effect is under the skin (where the edema forms) but in clamping it is under the tunica. Therefore, clampers usually experience no or little edema at least compared to pumpers.


Later - ttt

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