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More Hanging Sets or Adding Extender

Originally Posted by rootsnatty

I’m sorry if I offended you Marinera. I thought this was a dialectic discussion that was going somewhere….

I’m not offended by any means. I just like to rant like an old fart from time to time, I think you can see where I do come from. If you stay around here 6 years from now, you’ll have similar reaction like the one I had. And I like tossed salad too, don’t think I don’t like you or anything like that. Actually I wanted to tease that guy whose name starts with ‘M’ and ends with ‘emento’. Have you ever been in a pub where old people like to bitch a bit for fun? That’s it.

Heck ya Devotion! That is awesome! It’s workin so don’t mess with it. And that is awesome you have been able to gain both girth and length at the same time! I take it you don’t buy into the whole “thicker noodle is harder to stretch” thing? I really want to say I don’t as it sounds like utter pseudoscience, but SO many people on here follow that rule I find it almost impossible to do so and find myself avoiding girth exercises like the plague aside from some 50-60% erection level jelqing. You find any synergy between the bathmate stuff you do (stretches, pumping, etc.) and the other stuff you are doing for length? I suppose, as you said, it would be hard to make the distinction of what gains came from what.

Haha ya I got you Marinera. No sweat, we are definitely cool and I do see where you come from. You and Memento - like that movie Grumpy Old Men? ;) I am actually pretty honored that all you moderators responded to my thread. There are a couple other forums I post on, mostly weightlifting and performance enhancement stuff, and they are both populated with mainly good people, but people around here seem much more inviting and down to earth. I’m used to having to be quick with the facts and really go all out to defend my positions (the world of strength and conditioning is VERY polarized), but here, I don’t think that is what people are looking to do. Here, I feel like good discussions, information and support are mainly what people are interested in. I mean sometimes stuff gets like luke-warm heated, but it is NOTHING like the debates/arguments that happen at those other forums I mentioned. Maybe that is because PE is relatively more primitive/unresearched/young and people haven’t had the time or empirical facts to form concrete positions yet, but either way, I like it here more. :)

Nahh, that’s because T is the guy who made this forum the way it is.

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
Plastic and elastic deformation are not only engineering concepts. They are biomechanical concepts as well and (I really do not intend to sound pompous/arrogant here, but don’t know how else to say this) my knowledge of these concepts comes from eight years of college culminating in a masters degree, two certs for training - one of which is a CSCS, study in various books and research, years of experience training both sporting and physique athletes - along with MANY average joes, and my personal experience playing college football, strength and conditioning training for ten years, and competitively powerlifting. These are well-understood concepts relating to connective tissue. Plastic deformation happens when connective tissue is stretched so far that it cannot return to its original size. It is a function of total stretching workload - time spent stretching X intensity of stretching. (That is very simplistic but more or less accurate) Owing to that equation, I DO see how extenders can work. You maximize the time side of the equation while tension remains essentially constant. Hanging, on the other hand, does clock considerable time, but the amount of intensity it can generate cannot be matched, so the total workload is much higher. Note: overworking can lead to injury, the process should be a gradual ramping up of both time and intensity.

Now, connective tissue does become tougher, but no place in the body does it ever become impossible to stretch with increased intensity or time. Plus, hangers have come up with all kinds of creative ways around this problem like angles and fulcrums.

And a question for Marinera: has Bib ever posted proof of his massive gains? I thought of exactly what you were saying about proof before. Pics or it didn’t happen! ;)

@Behemoth: you are totally correct that more is involved in lengthening the penis than simply stretching the connective tissue, that is the reason that any good program will address the circulatory system, soft tissue fatigue, the muscles of the pelvic girdle, etc. (I know I REALLY need to add kegels!) But, in terms of what is the major limiter and number one target for length gain being that no bones are present, it is the connective tissue of the penis. The suspensory ligaments and the fibrous sheath of connective tissue - the dreaded tunica! And the rules for deforming connective tissue, no matter where in the body, are essentially the same with some slight variance between joints, membranes, and attachments.

And the thing about lifting not being a great comparison is spot on as well, they are completely different processes and similarities are largely coincidence. It almost makes me think that some people think the penis is a muscle when they talk about how in some way you need to exercise in the same manner you do when you are in the gym hittin’ the pile.

Lastly, @memento: dynamic stretching/elastic deformation is useful, but does not cause permanent increases in connective tissue length, hence the “elastic” - it stretches and the. Springs back to its former size, like elastic. That being said, dynamic stretching is GREAT to prep/warm-up connective tissue, and when done before static stretching has been shown to reduce the rate of injury and increase the effectiveness of the static stretching. So some swings when I am ready for them (can perform them safely) are probably a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion!

Wow! Great discussion all! Did not expect this when I started the thread. Thank you.

Great info here. Can you briefly go over what exercises/techniques are best besides hanging like you mentioned here: “any good program will address the circulatory system, soft tissue fatigue, the muscles of the pelvic girdle, etc.”

Originally Posted by Devotion9
I won’t remove my extender. I want those gains. At the same time, hanging is stretching on steroids in terms of endurance for your arm and grip, not necessarily because a great force of weight is used. Strengthening is a fine line to walk. But put it like this. For thirty years my cock retracted, a lot. It never went past six inches erect, not from the side even
. And now, the girth routines have thickened it. The length routines lengthened it. Life is great. I added dedicated stretching to my extender use, Bathmate stretches, and now hanging. What gain is from what? I couldn’t tell. But my dick is healthier and bigger than ever. So the safe consensus use of each approach creates changes. And OH BOY will the effort continue.

And what was the retraction from and when did it stop?

@Marinera: Ya, he is the shit!

@Ironaddict: thanks man! It’s good to hear that people here are accepting of information coming from a member with less than 20 posts. ;) OK, I will attempt to answer your questions, but keep in mind, my PE experience is limited so this is strictly coming from my understanding of tissues - especially the collagenous connective variety - and how those tissues heal and lengthen.

The circulatory system: So the veins and other blood vessels in the penis should be addressed to improve the tone of their smooth muscle and increase bloodflow. If your penis gains size or elasticity you want to be able to fill that sucker with blood when it’s time to use it, right? Well, the best way I can see to do that so far in the world of PE, exercise-wise, are jelqs and jelq variations. Jelqing causes increased blood to be “shoved” through the circulatory system, conditioning it to handle increased bloodflow. The veins become used to carrying a larger volume of blood over time and the smooth muscle surrounding the vessels should improve in tone and the elasticity of the vessels should increase to reflect this. Now, you must be careful to not damage the vessels with overwork. Blood vessel (well really most kinds of tissue) damage usually results in scar tissue formation which causes hardening and stiffness - NOT a good thing in blood vessels! Their ability to dilate and contract is essential to their normal function and stiffening/hardening hampers this - as is the case with arteriosclerosis and the cause of many strokes. Not to mention, if you burst a blood vessel you gotta take some time off more than likely. Also, integral to increased bloodflow to the penis are..

The muscles of the pelvic girdle: These muscles should be strengthened as they work the valves controlling the inflow of blood into the corpus cavernosum thereby effecting stronger and longer lasting erections - taking advantage of the improved circulatory vessels you are building with jelqs, as well as a whole host of other sexually related benefits like increased stamina, stronger orgasms, higher velocity ejaculation (OH YEAH!), and have even been said to be the first stepping stone on the road to male dry/multiple orgasms. Kegels, kegel holds, reverse kegels, weighted kegels (with towels or weights hanging from the erect penis), anal clenches and reverse clenches, along with several other pelvic girdle muscle flexes and holds are the key exercises used to strengthen these muscles.

Managing soft tissue fatigue: Now this is not something you exercise for, rather it is something you need to keep a watch for as to not allow too much of it to happen as to not be able to recover adequately between PE sessions. The corpus cavernosum, corpus spongiosum, and the glans penis all contain soft tissue of different kinds that can be fatigued and damaged. Too much of this damage is problematic for a few reasons. First, if you overly damage these tissues, just like a broken blood vessel, you will have to take a while off. Second, extensive trauma to soft tissue will also result in the formation of scar tissue. A lot of scar tissue is never desirable in any tissue as it is hard and inflexible making gains harder to achieve, and really not great for anything functionality-wise. Signs of extensive tissue trauma such as bruising, spotting, or other discoloration over a large area of the penis or very deep in hue as well as subcutaneous bleeding, relatively intense or sharp pain, more than a minimal level of swelling that sticks around, and/or lasting coldness should all be watched for and a session should be immediately discontinued if any of these signs start to show in a way that has you even remotely worried. Sorry I cannot be more exact here, everyone’s tolerance/conditioning is different but it is always better to play it on the safe side. The problem with some soft tissue damage is that the signs will not show up until later. It is important, in these cases, that the trauma be allowed to heal - a break might be necessary for a couple days.

Pretty basic stuff you hear about a lot, but ANY program, be it hanging-, extender-, manual-, pumping-, or clamping-based needs to address the above factors and include/exclude the necessary components.

Another great post. I am vastly interested in making blood flow better and strengthening the pelvic girdle as you worded it. So really just jelqs and kegels?

I do not know how to do a reverse kegel (my core just tightens up) and what is a clench? Isn’t that the same as a kegel?

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
DomXZ, what is your hanging protocol like? Both hanging and extending utilize traction, and traction must be applied for long periods (to maximize creep and deformation) and only use JUST enough force to overcome the threshold for plastic deformation of the connective tissue a.k.a. Enough force to stretch the tissue between about 3-9% depending on what the connective tissue is composed of - and I do not know exactly what this percentage is for the tunica or ligs, but 3-9% isn’t a ton of deformation and maybe it requires less weight than you are currently hanging. When heavy stress - more than is necessary to just overcome the deformation threshold - is applied to connective tissue, that is what causes the collagenous tissue to retract/shorten and heal thicker and tougher - not a desirable thing for continuous gains. If you have been hanging heavy (well heavy is relative, I guess I mean heavier than you needed to) for a while you may have toughened your tissue so much as to make further gains difficult. From a strictly scientific standpoint, knowing nothing about your individual practices or what works best for you, switching to the lower tension of an extender would probably help with this, as would reducing your hanging weight and using longer periods with more sets to reach “fatigue,” or by taking a break from either for a while.

Weight as low as possible, which means the first set will be 3kg and consecutive sets 2kg. Heat up for 10 minutes between every set, jelq between every 2nd set. I try to get in as many as possible, usually being 5 sets. During sets I gently swing the weight. I start out before the first set with manual stretching, kegels done throughout the day.

Fatigue seems to hit around the 3rd or 4th set.

@Ironaddict: Thanks again, and yeah, that is basically it - the short answer at least. For now, jelqing is integral to every good routine as it is the best way that we know of to make veins healthier and condition them for increased bloodflow in the penile context. Here is a parallel to weightlifting that is valid that you might understand from your own experience: When you lift weights, especially like a bodybuilder with higher reps and the maximum weight you can use for the specific rep range, the increased bloodflow you get - the “pump” - causes a change in the actual density (number), size, efficiency, and prominence (visual vascularity) of the circulatory system in a muscle over time. Since you lift, I imagine you have noticed that “shoving” more blood into your muscles has resulted in changes in the appearance of your sub-surface blood vessels to some extent unless your bodyfat is high and covers them up (but it is still happening) or you ONLY have ever lifted with very low reps, powerlifting style, but even then there would be some change. It is this increase in bloodflow on a regular basis, whether from the engorgement created when you jelq or the pump you get from lifting iron, that promotes the changes in the circulatory system you want. Aside from exercising, good nutrition and hydration supplemented with B-complex vitamins, vitamin C, calcium, magnesium, arginine, and omega 3 fish oil support a healthy circulatory system as well as reducing stress and abstaining from stimulants (which are vasorestrictors), such as caffeine, nicotine, cocaine/crack, meth, other amphetamines/classic speed, ephedrine, and ecstasy, as much as possible - probably trying to avoid the last (illegal) five in that list completely. ;) And a clench is flexing your sphincter/asshole, like you are trying to pinch one off - a reverse clench would be relaxing those same muscles. A reverse kegel is the relaxation of the BC muscle, so remember you are not trying to flex anything, just consciously relax the muscle. It is the same thing as trying to piss as hard as you can, then pay attention and relax the abs and diaphragm and if you are still doing it right you should be reverse kegeling. Eventually it should become something you can do without that whole process. The problem is all those muscles work in unison to increase urine outflow and the neuromuscular pathways most people have developed activates/deactivates them in unison and it takes practice to only target the BC muscle to relax when the neuromuscular prompt you are utilizing is ‘trying to piss as hard as you can.’ Learning to control the relaxation of the BC muscle is associated with increased control. The reason you must do such a diverse set of exercises is because the pelvic girdle is a decently complex set of muscles that often work in unison, some contracting and some relaxing during a range of sexually (and other) related functions and you must be sure each muscle is being strengthened as to avoid imbalances just like other muscle groups, like the shoulder.

Also, I wanted to say your lifting maxes are pretty decent - better than most of the collegiate footballers I have worked with. Way to go! I take it “Press” is a bench press and not a press/overhead press?

@DomXZ: Wish I could be of more help, but your program looks pretty solid to me. I’m guessing you are not going too heavy if it is taking four sets to reach fatigue on most days. You are probably right and maybe just need to give the type of hanging you are doing a break for a while in favor of lighter work, an extender, or just a break from everything. One question though: do you hang daily? Oh. And one more: how long did it take you to get to the weights you are using?

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
@Ironaddict: Thanks again, and yeah, that is basically it - the short answer at least. For now, jelqing is integral to every good routine as it is the best way that we know of to make veins healthier and condition them for increased bloodflow in the penile context. Here is a parallel to weightlifting that is valid that you might understand from your own experience: When you lift weights, especially like a bodybuilder with higher reps and the maximum weight you can use for the specific rep range, the increased bloodflow you get - the “pump” - causes a change in the actual density (number), size, efficiency, and prominence (visual vascularity) of the circulatory system in a muscle over time. Since you lift, I imagine you have noticed that “shoving” more blood into your muscles has resulted in changes in the appearance of your sub-surface blood vessels to some extent unless your bodyfat is high and covers them up (but it is still happening) or you ONLY have ever lifted with very low reps, powerlifting style, but even then there would be some change. It is this increase in bloodflow on a regular basis, whether from the engorgement created when you jelq or the pump you get from lifting iron, that promotes the changes in the circulatory system you want. Aside from exercising, good nutrition and hydration supplemented with B-complex vitamins, vitamin C, calcium, magnesium, arginine, and omega 3 fish oil support a healthy circulatory system as well as reducing stress and abstaining from stimulants (which are vasorestrictors), such as caffeine, nicotine, cocaine/crack, meth, other amphetamines/classic speed, ephedrine, and ecstasy, as much as possible - probably trying to avoid the last (illegal) five in that list completely. ;) And a clench is flexing your sphincter/asshole, like you are trying to pinch one off - a reverse clench would be relaxing those same muscles. A reverse kegel is the relaxation of the BC muscle, so remember you are not trying to flex anything, just consciously relax the muscle. It is the same thing as trying to piss as hard as you can, then pay attention and relax the abs and diaphragm and if you are still doing it right you should be reverse kegeling. Eventually it should become something you can do without that whole process. The problem is all those muscles work in unison to increase urine outflow and the neuromuscular pathways most people have developed activates/deactivates them in unison and it takes practice to only target the BC muscle to relax when the neuromuscular prompt you are utilizing is ‘trying to piss as hard as you can.’ Learning to control the relaxation of the BC muscle is associated with increased control. The reason you must do such a diverse set of exercises is because the pelvic girdle is a decently complex set of muscles that often work in unison, some contracting and some relaxing during a range of sexually (and other) related functions and you must be sure each muscle is being strengthened as to avoid imbalances just like other muscle groups, like the shoulder.

Also, I wanted to say your lifting maxes are pretty decent - better than most of the collegiate footballers I have worked with. Way to go! I take it “Press” is a bench press and not a press/overhead press?

@DomXZ: Wish I could be of more help, but your program looks pretty solid to me. I’m guessing you are not going too heavy if it is taking four sets to reach fatigue on most days. You are probably right and maybe just need to give the type of hanging you are doing a break for a while in favor of lighter work, an extender, or just a break from everything. One question though: do you hang daily? Oh. And one more: how long did it take you to get to the weights you are using?

Thank you again! I am going to start doing way more kegels, that may be why I am not growing, blood flow is “eh”.

Yes those are power lifting numbers. My OHP is 265. I couldn’t imagine ever doing it with anywhere near 4.oh my gosh. I weigh 265 lbs so my numbers are “good” but not amazing. They are class 1 lifts, not quite elite.

My penis sometimes is rather firm while soft, I suspect that it is a pelvic floor issue. Erections are fine, just not as full/hard as they should be In my opinion. I don’t thin I am ever able to fully relax my BC muscle.

People, please when quoting a very long post cut it just to make clear what you are referring to, like this

Originally Posted by rootsnatty

@Ironaddict: Thanks again, and yeah, that is basically it - the short answer at least. For now, jelqing is integral to every good routine as it is the best way that we know of to make veins healthier and condition them for increased bloodflow in the penile context. Here is a parallel to weightlifting that is valid that you might understand from your own experience: When you lift weights, ……….

Ya I need to get going on the kegels as well! I saw quick gains in both girth and length (from pumping and hanging, respectively), but now they are slowing down post newbie burst. I need to maximize my blood flow so I will know that is not the problem if they stall out completely. I REALLY hope that never happens though!

And ya that would be an incredible overhead press. A dude at this gym I used to train at could put up 405, maybe even a bit more as he just did that for fun, not a max, and it was easy. He was a bodybuilder, surprisingly, and he would rep in the 315-365 range. This was all military press though btw, not a true press: standing with no leg drive or backwards lean. And those numbers are badass for your weight! No need to be modest. ;) . I am a similar weight and my numbers (well PR maxes - I’m not close to competition status presently) were quite similar. Bench and squat were a bit higher, but my deadlift always sucked and barely stayed ahead of my bench - I have a long torso and short limbs, good for the other two, BAD for deadlift. At one point, because of a pretty long layoff from deadlifting, I was benching and deadlifting 505 (a submax to base my training lifts off of, later got it in comp in the bench though) for a week, then I hurt my wrist and couldn’t deadlift anymore for a while. I stopped powerlifting shortly after, but that injury saved me from the embarrassment of benching more than I could deadlift in a competition. ;) And seeing you list your numbers reminded me of something funny: I always put my maxes on job applications for physical labor jobs under the “personal skills/qualities” section of my résumé, and I ALWAYS got an interview and they asked about them every time. Something to think about if you are ever job shopping. :) Ok, don’t want to turn this PE thread into a lifting discussion, but two more questions: do you powerlift raw or equipped? Are you still competing?

And just practice reverse kegelling, you’ll get it. It was hard for me too, but I got it eventually. Having control of those muscles individually as well as as a group, as they mostly work together, is what gives you the sexual benefits. I’ve only been consistent enough to just see the tip of the iceberg with those, but I really like what I’m seeing so far! In terms of strictly bloodflow improvement, however, you should be able to achieve as much improvement as you like without ever reverse kegelling properly. Might be a little slower to improve, but I really can’t see any reason why that should be the case.

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
@DomXZ: Wish I could be of more help, but your program looks pretty solid to me. I’m guessing you are not going too heavy if it is taking four sets to reach fatigue on most days. You are probably right and maybe just need to give the type of hanging you are doing a break for a while in favor of lighter work, an extender, or just a break from everything. One question though: do you hang daily? Oh. And one more: how long did it take you to get to the weights you are using?

No, I realized that longer periods with lighter weights worked better through trial and error.

And yeah, I do hang daily. Progression wise; started with 0.5kg, and two 15 minute sets, worked up to 2kg in intervals of 0.5kg, increased to 20 minutes and after that 1 extra set per week. I’ve tried heavier weights in the first set and then drop lower to get fatigued sooner, applying as much heat as possible, swinging and fulcrums. Between all of that only lots of heat and stupid amounts of sets (14 sets being the highest) seem to give good fatigue. Heat I can do, 14 sets not so much.

Maybe this could be of interest of yours:

” Creep is a loading condition where a constant force is applied to a material over a long period of time. Thus force or load is held constant while the displacement is allowed to vary (Fig.7). Stress Relaxation is another loading condition that can be applied to a viscoelastic material. The subject material is held in a fixed displacement. Thus displacement is constant while the force is allowed to vary (Fig. 8). With SPS, a series of incremental increasing displacements are held constant over a prescribed period of time (Fig.9).
…….
We monitored both Stress Relaxation and Creep modulii as a function of time. We then plotted the results (Fig. 13). Our experimental results confirmed our mathematical predictions that when Stress Relaxation is employed, a viscoelastic material becomes softer or more pliable sooner than when Creep is employed.
…..
Dramatic variations in Total Treatment Time (TTT) and Treatment Days (TD), along with permanent gains in ROM were observed. The average TTT per direction was 2240 hours for turnbuckles, 1025 hours for dynamic splints, 712 hours for serial casting and 66 hours for SPS/Stress Relaxation.

TTT for the prescribed SPS/Stress Relaxation approach was up to thirty-four (34) times shorter than other methods evaluated here. Similar results were noted when comparing modalities by Treatment Days (TD). Variations of TD ranged up to 286% from averages of 140 days for turnbuckles, 91 days for dynamic splints, to 49 days for SPS/Stress Relaxation (Fig. 16). Based on the results, the principle of SPS/Stress Relaxation is ten (10) times more efficient than serial casting, eighteen (18) times more efficient than dynamic splinting and thirty (30) times more efficient that using a turnbuckle.”

http://web.archive.org/web/20030204…m/research.html

What I said? Don’t focus on the weight you apply, focus on how far your penis is stretched.

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