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More Hanging Sets or Adding Extender

I know this is mainly a discussion about length but what if your main pursuit is girth . How would one approach that this just seems a little trickier to me . Yes jelgs but I know I can’t stay engorged for 2,3,4hrs at a time which would be nice but dangerous . I enjoy light clamping also more like edging. Any thoughts?

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
Ya I need to get going on the kegels as well! I saw quick gains in both girth and length (from pumping and hanging, respectively), but now they are slowing down post newbie burst. I need to maximize my blood flow so I will know that is not the problem if they stall out completely. I REALLY hope that never happens though!

And ya that would be an incredible overhead press. A dude at this gym I used to train at could put up 405, maybe even a bit more as he just did that for fun, not a max, and it was easy. He was a bodybuilder, surprisingly, and he would rep in the 315-365 range. This was all military press though btw, not a true press: standing with no leg drive or backwards lean. And those numbers are badass for your weight! No need to be modest. ;) . I am a similar weight and my numbers (well PR maxes - I’m not close to competition status presently) were quite similar. Bench and squat were a bit higher, but my deadlift always sucked and barely stayed ahead of my bench - I have a long torso and short limbs, good for the other two, BAD for deadlift. At one point, because of a pretty long layoff from deadlifting, I was benching and deadlifting 505 (a submax to base my training lifts off of, later got it in comp in the bench though) for a week, then I hurt my wrist and couldn’t deadlift anymore for a while. I stopped powerlifting shortly after, but that injury saved me from the embarrassment of benching more than I could deadlift in a competition. ;) And seeing you list your numbers reminded me of something funny: I always put my maxes on job applications for physical labor jobs under the “personal skills/qualities” section of my résumé, and I ALWAYS got an interview and they asked about them every time. Something to think about if you are ever job shopping. :) Ok, don’t want to turn this PE thread into a lifting discussion, but two more questions: do you powerlift raw or equipped? Are you still competing?

And just practice reverse kegelling, you’ll get it. It was hard for me too, but I got it eventually. Having control of those muscles individually as well as as a group, as they mostly work together, is what gives you the sexual benefits. I’ve only been consistent enough to just see the tip of the iceberg with those, but I really like what I’m seeing so far! In terms of strictly bloodflow improvement, however, you should be able to achieve as much improvement as you like without ever reverse kegelling properly. Might be a little slower to improve, but I really can’t see any reason why that should be the case.

Hey man. Yes I compete raw. I would like to put some gear on and do single ply someday. My deadlift is weird. It’s hard for me to use legs and hips I do almost all back unfortunately.

So to maximize gains I need to get back to focusing on jelqing and kegels?

@Marinera: Good idea to settle your’s and mem’s debate. The poll, that is.

Lengthening is all that matters: Everyone listen up, this is EXACTLY correct. We can talk about workload, toughening and fatigue as much as we want, and all those things do have an effect on the tissue’s ability to lengthen, but ultimately what it comes down to is that, to permanently be deformed and lengthened/expanded, collagenous connective tissue must be lengthened/expanded to roughly 5 percent (this varies a percentage point or two in either direction depending on the composition of the tissue in question) greater length than it is at rest. If you achieve this, you achieve permanent plastic deformation regardless of the loading parameters utilized to get there. The reason we don’t want to toughen the tissue is because that will cause it to resist stretching making the ~5% magic number harder to achieve, and, therefore we don’t want to deform the tissue too far past this range - more is NOT always better - as that is what causes the trauma that leads to scar tissue build up and toughening without generating proportionate gains.

Another thing, anyone interested in the way connective tissue works should read up on viscoelasticity. Marinera and I have mentioned it and it is a sort of complicated property, but VERY applicable to the way in which we choose our loading parameters in PE. It is this property that makes connective tissue unique among elastic/pseudoelastic materials and its component parts - creep, stress relaxation, and energy dispersal - can all be utilized to achieve greater results in PE with smaller loads, thereby reducing the risk of toughening.

@DomXZ: You have the right idea about hanging as you are minimizing toughening, and your plan to switch to an extender to maximize time at low load would probably work, at least for a while until you adapted to the increased time under stress, but the suggestion I would make would be to first try to hang a bit heavier. You have been at a low weight for so long that undoubtedly your connective tissue has adapted to it, making that “magic” deformation number of about ~5% harder to achieve, and if you aren’t breaking that threshold you will not achieve any plastic deformation, and you will not gain. Just a thought, and I have never been in your situation, but it does make sense when analyzing the way collagenous connective tissue deforms. As Marinera correctly stated, all that matters is that you are stretching things far enough.

@Everyone: Also, keep in mind that connective tissue uncrimps before beginning to deform either elastically or plastically, so that ~5% deformation threshold required for permanent plastic deformation is longer than you think, and cannot be simply measured as you do not know how much unfolding your connective tissue is doing. It must instead be measured by whether or not you are achieving permanent deformation and gaining.

@Ironaddict: I think you should keep lifting raw, it is way more badass and lifting equipped changes the lifts significantly, well not really the deadlift, but you have to find the “groove” in the squat and basically learn an entirely different bench pressing technique that more resembles a hybrid close-grip/reverse-grip bench in mechanics - an entirely triceps-based movement. And only really the bench can be increased by a massive amount when equipped, the deadlift really won’t be aided by gear because of its mechanics, but some believe that equipped powerlifting is easier on your joints and safer. I do not subscribe to that theory. :)

And ya, kegels and jelqs are important. I can’t say for sure, however, that if you really start getting after them you will start gaining again like a newbie, but it will not hurt and could be what is stalling your gains!

@Plaidshirt: Regarding the connective tissue in your penis and girth gains, while it might be more ideal to expand the tunica for very long periods of time, it is NOT necessary to achieve gains in girth. Same goes for length, otherwise people could never gain from stretch variations and other manual exercises that usually last under a couple minutes. Really all that matters is that you slightly overcome that deformation (in this case expansion) threshold. The reason time is important in connective tissue deformation is that collagen’s viscoelastic properties grant it the ability to “creep.” That is, if a constant stress is placed on connective tissue it will continue to lengthen over time without needing to increase the stress/load. Now, logically, it would seem then that more time would always be beneficial to maximize creep, but the deal with creep is it follows a curve. The curve looks (roughly) like the nine to twelve part of a clock (except is not truly circular and the twelve o’clock part continues on to infinity getting closer and closer to the maximum creep limit but never quite getting there as it flattens out more and more as it approaches it) on a graph where the x-axis represents time and the y-axis represents deformation. Sorry about having to explain that in words, I don’t know how to or if I’m allowed to (being a new member) post a picture of a graph, hope it made some sense. Anyway, the point is creep happens fastest at the beginning of a held stretch with a constant load, but quickly slows down as time goes on, eventually becoming an imperceptible lengthening in a certain amount of time. This time frame is not definite because everyone is different, but in a ten minute clamping session where good expansion has been achieved, no matter who we are talking about here, creep should be close to maximized and would be yielding only imperceptible lengthening or at least quickly diminishing returns by the end of the set, more than likely. Now, also impacting quick girth gains is the structure of the tunica itself. The tunica resembles muscle fascia as it is composed of “stacked” layers of collagenous connective tissue where the grain of each subsequent layer runs in the opposite direction of the layer underneath. This criss-crossing of collagenous sheaths makes the tunica, and muscle fascia, very strong and tough. Due to this fact, girth gains are usually harder to bring about as can be seen in their relative smaller increases for just about anyone. But another thing to keep in mind is that in most cases an increase in girth will increase penis volume by a greater amount than an equal increase in length! See what I posted previously about muscle pumps and bodybuilders using synthol to see another couple examples of connective tissue membranes (muscle fascia which is, as I have said, very structurally similar to the tunica) being expanded - it definitely happens, and a muscle pump is a relatively short-lived phenomenon.

Hi Rootsnatty,

You are pumping out some great posts there but the ‘big block of text ‘style of writing is detracting from your posts. Try to break it up into some smaller paragraphs to help with peoples comprehension (especially helpful for the guys that have English as a second language).

***************

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
@Plaidshirt: Regarding the connective tissue in your penis and girth gains, while it might be more ideal to expand the tunica for very long periods of time, it is NOT necessary to achieve gains in girth.

Same goes for length, otherwise people could never gain from stretch variations and other manual exercises that usually last under a couple minutes. Really all that matters is that you slightly overcome that deformation (in this case expansion) threshold. The reason time is important in connective tissue deformation is that collagen’s viscoelastic properties grant it the ability to “creep.” That is, if a constant stress is placed on connective tissue it will continue to lengthen over time without needing to increase the stress/load.

Now, logically, it would seem then that more time would always be beneficial to maximize creep, but the deal with creep is it follows a curve. The curve looks (roughly) like the nine to twelve part of a clock (except is not truly circular and the twelve o’clock part continues on to infinity getting closer and closer to the maximum creep limit but never quite getting there as it flattens out more and more as it approaches it) on a graph where the x-axis represents time and the y-axis represents deformation. Sorry about having to explain that in words, I don’t know how to or if I’m allowed to (being a new member) post a picture of a graph, hope it made some sense.

Anyway, the point is creep happens fastest at the beginning of a held stretch with a constant load, but quickly slows down as time goes on, eventually becoming an imperceptible lengthening in a certain amount of time. This time frame is not definite because everyone is different, but in a ten minute clamping session where good expansion has been achieved, no matter who we are talking about here, creep should be close to maximized and would be yielding only imperceptible lengthening or at least quickly diminishing returns by the end of the set, more than likely.

Now, also impacting quick girth gains is the structure of the tunica itself. The tunica resembles muscle fascia as it is composed of “stacked” layers of collagenous connective tissue where the grain of each subsequent layer runs in the opposite direction of the layer underneath. This criss-crossing of collagenous sheaths makes the tunica, and muscle fascia, very strong and tough. Due to this fact, girth gains are usually harder to bring about as can be seen in their relative smaller increases for just about anyone.

But another thing to keep in mind is that in most cases an increase in girth will increase penis volume by a greater amount than an equal increase in length! See what I posted previously about muscle pumps and bodybuilders using synthol to see another couple examples of connective tissue membranes (muscle fascia which is, as I have said, very structurally similar to the tunica) being expanded - it definitely happens, and a muscle pump is a relatively short-lived phenomenon.


A well tailored suit is to women what lingerie is to men.

A well PE'd Penis gives girls the "Wow Eyes"

I :surf: therefore I am

This is such a good thread, wow. So when we hang, and use an extender after, there really shouldn’t be all that much tension then?

Originally Posted by marinera
Behemoth, this could help you
How to upload pics

Sorry to cite myself, but it seems nobody read this
marinera - More Hanging Sets or Adding Extender

I know it is basically a marketing thing for a device, but the info on which it is based have good independent backup.

Sorry I should have made myself clearer Mariner, that was a copy of Rootsnatty’s post to show him how much easier it is to read when the text is not in one big block, I’ve fixed it now :)


A well tailored suit is to women what lingerie is to men.

A well PE'd Penis gives girls the "Wow Eyes"

I :surf: therefore I am

Rootsnatty thank you for your response to my question.

I have a decent knowledge of anatomy/physiology, biomechanics/biochem, etc., from other pursuits. You guys are pushing the envelope enough that, while I can follow it, I don’t feel comfortable enough to try and contribute. Fascinating stuff thought, thank you.

This is one of the things that separates these forums both from commercial and fringe/kook sites. We know that PE works but we don’t exactly or entirely understand how/why. Beyond that? Well, we continue to gather data and cross reference knowledge. We debate theory and conduct experiments. But we don’t latch onto a tenuous, connect the dots, plausible sounding theory to “sell” what we have.

Plaidshirt: Targeting girth is much trickier for most. Some guys gain nicely in that regard from generic PE. That and the conditioning factor is why it’s best to start out with the basics. And the tree trunk effect compliments/counteracts the baseball bat effect; so hanging works well in that regard. I don’t know if the extender guys report a similar phenomena. Some guys have reported success with using a roomy tube to pump for girth. Length from pumping tentds to occur after the penis starts hitting the tube sides. Also ulies, clamping horses, etc. Just be careful.


Running a Massive Co-Front.

Girth

Iamaru thank you for you response also to my question . In the fall of 2011 I had a pump with pressure gauge from a well known brand but I had a problem with their cylinders cracking just after one use at low pressure at the top where it disconnects , four cylinders in about a two month time frame . Do you have any suggestions for a good pump and cylinder set up?

@Behemoth: Thank you for the advice, I will make sure I do that. When I am writing forum posts/emails sometimes I do get a little too “stream of consciousness” in my writing. I have a good memory for these kinds of facts and I tend to just start regurgitating. Stream of consciousness writing and someone with English as a second language trying to read it does indeed sound very tough and fills my head with the image of a foreigner trying to read Ulysses or some of Kurt Vonnegut’s books, like Breakfast of Champions (I think the pictures in that might even make it harder) - funny, but not pretty. ;) So I guess I’m saying I’ll make sure to break things up!

@Marinera: Totally missed that post! That was a great article/study. I always just figured creep was the viscoelastic property responsible for the most efficient plastic deformation of tissue because it causes the tissue to lengthen more and more over time, but with no real proof. Glad I know how important stress relaxation is now!

Being that both extenders and hanging are creep-based methods of lengthening, how do you think static progressive splinting can be applied to PE to maximize stress relaxation and, as this is the fastest way to soften tissue and achieve end-range lengthening and be able to move on to a further end-range (as the study states), maximize total end-range time? That traction device I saw on this site that uses the big threaded you to periodically apply incrementally increased traction and hold the penis at greater and greater lengths, allowing for stress relaxation to take place at each level of stretch followed by further lengthening of the end-range stretch works in the same fashion as a static progressive splint. I have seen extenders that only use threaded arms without the spring-loaded hydraulics as well. The shitty thing about trying to create a static progressive splint for your penis is that, so far, nobody has come up with a way to keep the penis under traction 24/7 (for circulation reasons) as you can with a splint designed to apply torque to a joint, and, therefore, the tissues have to be periodically allowed to shorten and then they must be re-stretched.

So, could someone - preferably an engineer that is also a urologist and genius - please get on building something like this? ;)

Also, after viewing those results I would like to know quantitatively how much faster stretch relaxation techniques work as compared to creep-based methods because I noticed that some of the creep-based techniques examined outperformed other stretch relaxation-based techniques aside from static progressive splinting. If, when using a similar apparatus, the difference is marginal then perhaps a stress relaxation-based PE system/device would not be too much of an upgrade over our creep-based extenders and hangers. And stress relaxation certainly requires a great deal more work and attention as you must progressively increase the stretch length incrementally rather than just letting the device increase it for you constantly over time as is the case with creep-based systems.

@Ironaddict: Not very much tension is a bit of a generalization as the degree of tension is relative to a person’s experience and the conditioning/toughness of their penile tissues. I would define the proper tension as JUST enough tension to breach the threshold for plastic-deformation, as I’ve said before. The minimum amount of stress to achieve this. Now, as you deform your connective tissue and the other tissues of the penis, they will strengthen (some strengthening/toughening is unavoidable with current PE protocols, perhaps every possible protocol) and more stress will be required to stretch them to a length that produces plastic deformation. So, at some point, the absolute force being applied might be considerable, but it will only create enough tissue strain to just breach the plastic deformation threshold because of increased tissue strength.

@Plaidshirt: I pumped at the beginning of my recent dedicated approach to PE and had to stop because of how quickly I began gaining girth - I was after length first in my long-term PE plan and I honestly can’t say why I bought a pump with those specific goals, it was an impulse buy. Also, most of those gains I achieved stuck around and appear to be permanent, even mid-shaft which is usually not affected by hanging, my current approach.

The pump I used was the Size Matters Penis Pumping Kit (the Advanced model). It has a gauge, a pistol-grip hand pump (like a brake bleeder or the Kaplan), a quick release button, a shitty leather adjustable cock ring, and a 9 (and some change) inch X 2.25 inch hardened acrylic cylinder which I took down to between -6 and -7 bars Hg of vacuum pressure eventually and had no tube integrity problems, I mean there was not even an indication that such a thing might ever happen at those pressures - no cracks, straining sounds, nothing. I maxed out the length pretty quickly under vacuum but never even got close to the sides (my cock was 4.875 inches in girth when I started and got to 5.25 inches at the end of my pumping run about a month later), so unless you got a coke can it should work well for girth for a long while. It is, I would say, comparable to the Kaplan Pump, though I never used the Kaplan, but did not come with any instructions (I was told by the sex shop lady that the Kaplan has detailed instructions). All the instructions you should need, however, are on this site! :) It was around 100 dollars, also much cheaper than the Kaplan (and the cylinder is bigger).

And I want to go on the record again saying that I believe pumping is an effective method for permanently increasing girth both in theory and in practice. Like lengthening connective tissue, expanding connective tissue just requires that it be expanded just past the threshold for plastic deformation, this expansion can be generated by several different methods, and pumping should work towards that end in theory. Clamping may be even more effective, most people think so and I’ve never tried it, but I believe pumping works well too.

Re: static progressive splint. A cheap autoextender will do that, just take out the springs or wind to the point where the springs are completely compressed.


Thunder's Place: increasing penis size one dick at a time.

Ya Memento that would work. Well taking the springs out and just using the screws to increase length. If they are all the way compressed they are still exerting a constant force though, and that makes it a creep-based system where the penis is not held at a constant length until you make the adjustment - eventually the springs will push themselves out causing constant creep rather than ‘end-point stretch, stress relaxation, move to new end-point stretch, and on and on.’ And I saw one cheap extender that was just two long screws, as I mentioned above, but I can’t remember the name of the company - I want to say the company’s name had the word “love” or “luv” in it but I could be wrong. Still, using an extender as a SPS is less than ideal because you can’t wear it all day and night like you can with an SPS. So that is what we need: an extender that uses a screw system only, without springs, that can be worn all day and night. Or something similar.

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