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Let me give a preface: You need to know that although these are my beliefs, I didn’t actually invent these conceptualizations. They are out of the Bible. Hope this does not turn you off. Much of Christianity is really just churchianity and is a far cry from the Christianity of the Bible. These phases can be found in the lives of David, Jesus, Joshuah, Moses, as well in the lives of countless historical men. The person who has best capsulized these ideas is John Eldridge who wrote “Wild at Heart” and “The Way of the Wild Heart.” I strongly recommend them to every man, especially fathers of sons. My life has been changed by these books. He is a man’s man who speaks to men about being men and fathers. He speaks Biblical truth without being “church” or preachy.” What he says lines up with the Bible and with psychology. I am no dummy. I have two doctorates. But I have learned from these books things that I would have never learned, otherwise.

Stage Three: In stage three a man has come to the point of validation. He feels that is valued as a man by other significant men and he has reached a level of competence in the skills (fixing, making, operating, exploring, creating) that make us men. We have learned to work and be productive in some endeavor. Now one begins to evaluate one’s role among others. Among those roles is that of PROTECTOR. One prepares oneself to protect self, others, and core values. We come to realize that there are some things worth taking a stand for, fighting for, and perhaps sacrificing oneself for. Certainly any male who is a man would take a stand for and protect his own children, or wife, other children, or important principles or values. Stage Three involves becoming competent as a protector. Taking a stand on what is right. Protecting those we love in whatever way we can (from injustice, from abuse, from cultural vices, from crime, from the coming bird flue pandemic, etc.) Protection is not just physical. It is emotional, it involves character, integrity, initiative. It is a willingness to face the hardships and discomforts of opposing that which threatens the happiness or wellbeing of those we are protecting. But it takes the manly confidence we gained in phases one and two to be able to fulfill this role. It is having the wisdom to know which battles are worth fighting. And I am not just talking about being a pugnacious, combative bully. It is about being a man with enough guts to do what is best for those he loves. It is not about beating up others to prove to yourself or others that you are a man. But we become less passive and more proactive. There are 3 other stages. MXL

Originally Posted by MagnumXL
In stage three a man has come to the point of validation. He feels that is valued as a man by other significant men and he has reached a level of competence in the skills (fixing, making, operating, exploring, creating) that make us men. We have learned to work and be productive in some endeavor. Now one begins to evaluate one’s role among others. Among those roles is that of PROTECTOR. One prepares oneself to protect self, others, and core values. We come to realize that there are some things worth taking a stand for, fighting for, and perhaps sacrificing oneself for. Certainly any male who is a man would take a stand for and protect his own children, or wife, other children, or important principles or values. Stage Three involves becoming competent as a protector. Taking a stand on what is right. Protecting those we love in whatever way we can (from injustice, from abuse, from cultural vices, from crime, from the coming bird flue pandemic, etc.) Protection is not just physical. It is emotional, it involves character, integrity, initiative. It is a willingness to face the hardships and discomforts of opposing that which threatens the happiness or wellbeing of those we are protecting. But it takes the manly confidence we gained in phases one and two to be able to fulfill this role. It is having the wisdom to know which battles are worth fighting. And I am not just talking about being a pugnacious, combative bully. It is about being a man with enough guts to do what is best for those he loves. It is not about beating up others to prove to yourself or others that you are a man. But we become less passive and more proactive. There are 3 other stages. MXL

MaxnumXL, are you in another group for Wisdom Enhancement (WE)? If not, you ought to start one! You are offering these young men some very good stuff from Eldridge. It is the stuff, IMHO, that all men ought to share with their sons and other young men within our urban villages. For the last two to three weeks I have been in a very pensive/reflective mood. I don’t know if it has been precipitated by some health issues, early retirement issues, erectile dysfunction issues, or the engagements of my two oldest sons. Suddenly I find myself trying to figure out how to take them out for a few beers to affirm them and attempt to impart some of the wisdom I have accumulated so they don’t have to struggle with a lot of negative thoughts and press down a lot of emotional turmoil as they try to figure out who they are as men. My father was the alcoholic, Hoosier father whose love seemed dependent upon my accomplishments and even physical attributes. I have tried to be a father who is his antipode, but in doing so have made a whole slew of my own mistakes. I don’t want my sons always struggling as husbands and fathers to be the real men I know they can be. This is getting difficult to express, but everything you have shared in this thread is spot on. It may very well be the raison d’etre for this entire PE phenomenon.

Magnum,

I think you explain the phases fairly well, thank you. Recognizing these phases, what advice do you have?

Donquixote

I know your concerns. I tried to do better as a father than mine did. But as a young man who hadn’t even manifested phase one, I made many glaring mistakes. My approach is to talk with my son, one one, and probe his psyche. “Son, what mistakes did I make as your father, especially early in your life. Do you have any painful memories. What hateful remarks still haunt you? etc.” Then apologise, expressing deep sincere regret for each thing, not trying to justify what you did. Affirm your sons. (separately not together) Recount to each all the strengths you see in them. Recount all their good character traits. Share a lot of things about them that make you proud. Tell them how greatly you are that they are your sons. Share with them how much profound happiness they have brought into your life. Be specific by relating individual events. And tell them that being their father was the greatest honor that you could ever want. They are everything you could want a son to be. You are confident that they will be good husbands and fathers. At some point give them Eldridge’s book “The Way of the Wild Heart.” Let them know that if you could do it all over again that, this is the way you would have raised them. But as a young father you did not understand this yourself. Be sure the show physical affection. Men need the physical touch of another man. Hug them and tell them they have your unconditional love and admiration. I say again - MEN NEED TO BE HUGGED BY OTHER MEN. Hug your sons.

Don: Some of the things you shared sound as though you may be going through “mid-Life Crisis.’ It is a very real phenomenon. It is a time of regret about past actions, a time of feeling trapped by your past choices, and a time of feeling your own mortality. I had a deep crisis period. But I knew it would come, and I was prepared. It was real, and intense. I shed quite a few tears, but I made it through. And I am far happier on this side of it than I was before I had it. You can make it too. It is just a matter or reorganizing your perspective. Looking at the future as a great adventure to be enjoyed. Make new plans, learn new things, have fun without betraying your loved ones. I watched the movie “City Slickers” over and over as therapy. It was about 3 guys going through midlife. Billy Crystal made it through just fine. You can too. MXL

MXL,

I am 41 and my kids are 6,9,11 girl boy girl. I have some regrets, but I can change. You speak only on regrets, what about advice?

all4show

Will get back to you tomorrow. Sorry but I have to speak to a group. MXL

Originally Posted by MagnumXL
Will get back to you tomorrow. Sorry but I have to speak to a group. MXL

Thanks man, I would love to hear it.

all4show

MODS: You need to review this because it touches on the concept of God. I don’t know if this topic is unacceptable in this forum.

Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I counsel people and speak to groups….plus family obligations, and it is hard to know when I will be free. Sorry.

IN ANSWER TO SOME QUESTIONS:
Anyway, the 6 stages are Loved, accepted and validated Son, Explorer-adventurer, Protector, Lover, Ruler, and Teacher. We learn to love unconditionally without looking for reward. We learn to take charge and regulate things so they are good for all concerned…not just what we want. Finally we learn to help others through their own journeys. You really must read Eldridge’s books “Wild at Heart” and “The Way of the Wild Heart.” What he says is not new. He just says it clearer than anyone else.These books will help you and help you help your own kids.

You have asked how to move from recognizing our needs to solving problems. It is not easy. There is no quick fix. First, it is a matter of getting the self-validation our fathers should have given us as a boy. But your dad may not give it. Ultimately you need to get this validation from God who is your real father. This can be accomplished when you come to understand that he created you, he accepts you, forgives you, and loves you unconditionally. There is a place in God’s heart that no other human can fill but you. He designed you, gave you your native talents and skills,delights in you, and is pleased with what he made. Constantly affirm to yourself and to Him that you are accepted and and have all it takes to be a man, fully a man. If you have problem with guilt, ask His forgiveness…it is yours for the asking. Read the story of the “Prodigal Son” in Luke 15;11-24. I often tell him how much I appreciate his unconditional love and acceptance of me. I tell him that I accept His validation of me as a man. And I tell him I know that I have what it takes to be a man. The N.T. says “I can do all things through Christ who enables me.” Accept that you are God’s beloved son whom he made and purchased. When this is settled in you mentally, it will gradually become settled in your feelings, too.

After this, proceed on through the other stages. Go out and explore the world. Try new things, develop new skills, learn to canoe, or bike, or climb rocks, or camp or other things. Start over. Take self defense, work out, learn to shoot a gun, go hunting and fishing. Work your way on through the various stages. But, by all means read the 2 books. Get them at the library or better yet, buy them. They are cheap at Amazon.com.

I now enjoy a big dick (8.5 X 7) (pumped) for different reasons. It is for fun with my wife, not to try and prove to myself and others that I am more manly because of its size. MXL

Starting to smell a little like a Promise Keepers agenda here isn’t it?

It’s OK here now MagnumXL, this thread is a test of sorts, to see if there is enough support for an old guys’ forum. Fuck, I know I am going to catch hell from avocet yet again for that. ;)


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Thunder

No, I have only heard of “Promise Keepers”….never been and don’t know their agenda. I did not want to offend anyone in referencing God or Scripture. I was asked what I thought was the solution, so I gave it as best as I have experienced and understood it. Thanks Thunder, MXL

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
It’s OK here now MagnumXL, this thread is a test of sorts, to see if there is enough support for an old guys’ forum. Fuck, I know I am going to catch hell from avocet yet again for that. ;)

Thunder, why on earth would a post like this (or these) worry you? I think it is important for each of us as men to try to grasp some of the deep issues behind our drives to do things like wanting a bigger and better penis. We really need to know why it drives some of us, but not all of us. You can’t tell me that what MXL has posted here for these last number of days hasn’t percolated in the minds of most men who read the posts. And I am willing to bet that many of those readers found at least some scintilla of recognition or identification with their own drives and journeys. To deny anything that MXL has presented here, or worse yet, to remove it lest it offend is to say that we are no different from salmon swimming inexorably upstream to do something that we know we have to do without having any sense of why. I don’t know Avocet well. I haven’t been around long and haven’t read all of his posts, but I have found him to be a well-educated and compassionate thinker who would never disdain an idea that might help any of us have a better grasp of who we are and why.

Greetings:

I think a TOFF would be a pretty good idea - I know I’d be pleased to contribute to it. What’s cool about this website though is the free-for-all that goes on in the individual threads, specific forums not-withstanding - and that is, the generally friendly and professional way egos are mostly set aside and ideas are exchanged. I know I’m a different and, hopefully, better person for sharing in the rich dialog that goes on here as I have learned and benefited a great deal. And, in the spirit of reciprocity that energizes and adds significance to all we do, I hope to make a contribution that somehow can make a difference to another member.

Oh Yeah, I almost forgot . . . TOFF = The Old Farts’ Forum :)

Cheers,

MrTiPS

(64 yrs young - looking for new training wheels)

Originally Posted by Donquixote
Thunder, why on earth would a post like this (or these) worry you? I think it is important for each of us as men to try to grasp some of the deep issues behind our drives to do things like wanting a bigger and better penis. We really need to know why it drives some of us, but not all of us. You can’t tell me that what MXL has posted here for these last number of days hasn’t percolated in the minds of most men who read the posts. And I am willing to bet that many of those readers found at least some scintilla of recognition or identification with their own drives and journeys. To deny anything that MXL has presented here, or worse yet, to remove it lest it offend is to say that we are no different from salmon swimming inexorably upstream to do something that we know we have to do without having any sense of why. I don’t know Avocet well. I haven’t been around long and haven’t read all of his posts, but I have found him to be a well-educated and compassionate thinker who would never disdain an idea that might help any of us have a better grasp of who we are and why.

It’s not worrying me DonQ. If it did, I would do something about it. If it gets too thumper, I’ll throw the devil into it, just for “balance”.

I was teasing avocet, inside joke maybe. Maybe not.


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Oh dear. It looks like I’m the ancient one here. Now just over the wrong half of 77.

I started going to the gym when I was 22 and have been involved in sport (Rowing. But not now) and weight training ever since. I’m still a regular 3 /4 sometimes 5 times a week, swimming occasionally,gym user although Knee trouble has slowed me down -Too much heavy squat work over the years., but I still can compete with quite a number of younger guys. and rather a lot of Younger Older Guys

Social life is restricted as I’m very deaf - due to an idiot dentist.. But Thunder’s keeps me on my toes brain-wise.

I started Pe’ing about 2½ years ago and have made some gains length and breadthwise so it’s still possible - even when ancient!.

More weight than I like at present, 12 stone 5’11 But will have that off for holidays, When I hope to go Nudist. Wey-Hey!

Oh yes. Silver hair on patchy covered head but eye-brows, pubes and body hair dark as always (well, when they are allowed to grow)

Go for it.

Tit

Originally Posted by petitfaun
Oh dear. It looks like I’m the ancient one here. Now just over the wrong half of 77.

I started going to the gym when I was 22 and have been involved in sport (Rowing. But not now) and weight training ever since. I’m still a regular 3 /4 sometimes 5 times a week, swimming occasionally,gym user although Knee trouble has slowed me down -Too much heavy squat work over the years., but I still can compete with quite a number of younger guys. and rather a lot of Younger Older Guys

Social life is restricted as I’m very deaf - due to an idiot dentist.. But Thunder’s keeps me on my toes brain-wise.

I started Pe’ing about 2½ years ago and have made some gains length and breadthwise so it’s still possible - even when ancient!.

More weight than I like at present, 12 stone 5’11 But will have that off for holidays, When I hope to go Nudist. Wey-Hey!

Oh yes. Silver hair on patchy covered head but eye-brows, pubes and body hair dark as always (well, when they are allowed to grow)

Go for it.

Tit

Wow I had no idea you were that old. Congrats man - you are still active and vital.

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