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Loading, lengthening, healing.

It looks like kids will soon be wearing braces that have little oscillating motors on them. :)

Thanks for posting all this great research Marinera!


Horny Bastard

Interesting thread, I used to think that the spring loaded extenders constant tension had to be more effective for increasing size than the static threaded bar design but these studies appear to show that this is probably not the case. So using a vacextender or even one of the homemade extenders and just stretching the penis out to a given length, letting it get used to that length, then stretching it out a little more and repeating over and over should give better results than the spring loaded extenders, when you think about it it makes sense since the cells can adapt during the relaxation phase. And considering that the threaded bar extenders are less expensive or can be made at home the choice seems obvious. Anyway I like reading these scientific threads alot of smart people on this board. Keep the posts coming


Last edited by JerseyDevil80 : 08-09-2008 at .

Originally Posted by mravg
It looks like kids will soon be wearing braces that have little oscillating motors on them. :)

Thanks for posting all this great research Marinera!

Thank for appreciation, mrvag. I think you should patent this idea of braces with oscillating motors, we are going to see somebody selling such a thing over the Internet. :)

Originally Posted by JerseyDevil80
Interesting thread, I used to think that the spring loaded extenders constant tension had to be more effective for increasing size than the static threaded bar design but these studies appear to show that this is probably not the case. So using a vacextender or even one of the homemade extenders and just stretching the penis out to a given length, letting it get used to that length, then stretching it out a little more and repeating over and over should give better results than the spring loaded extenders, when you think about it it makes sense since the cells can adapt during the relaxation phase. And considering that the threaded bar extenders are less expensive or can be made at home the choice seems obvious. Anyway I like reading these scientific threads alot of smart people on this board. Keep the posts coming

We don’t actually know how big could be the role of cellular proliferation in connective tissue growth, IMHO.
The more the cells in a given tissue, the harder it could be to elongate this tissue.

In other words, we have seen that CT can elongate through different mechanisms:

1) stress relaxation;
2) cellular proliferation;
3) microtears repairs;
4) creep elongation.

N. 1) and 4) should give elongation without production of new tissue. N. 2) and 3) produce new tissue.
Maybe a wise approach could be: starting elongating the existing tissue, when this can’t be elongated anymore, focusing on approaches that gives new tissue to elongate.

Using different approaches could aid in avoiding stalling gains.

Thank you as well for reading this thread and posting your views, JD80.


Last edited by marinera : 12-22-2008 at .

What happens at a molecular level?

I found this interesting article concentrating on what happens to collagen fibres at a molecular level during permanent elongation of collagen fibres due to an applied force. The subject suffers from Dupuytren’s contracture (see link) and is treated using a traction device which slowly elongates the tissues and straightens out his fingers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren’s_contracture

Download the pdf file here:
http://jhs.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/19/4/522

SUMMARY -“Continuous extension of Dupuytren’s contracture prior to fasciectomy results in a softening of the tissue, allowing straightening of the fingers. The observed change in cross-link profile indicates an increase in newly synthesised collagen due to increased turnover. This was confirmed by demon-stration of the increases in levels of the degradative enzymes, the neutral metalloproteinases, collagenase and gelatinase and the acidic cathepsins B and L. Both types of enzyme effectively depolymerize the collagen fibres, albeit by different mechanisms, leading initially to loss of tensile strength and ultimately to solubilization. We suggest that the increase in enzyme activity is generated by tension on the fibroblasts of this metabolically active tissue produced during the continuous extension of the retracted fingers. The weakening of the fibres by degradation and the increase in newly synthezised collagen provide an explanation for the extension of the tissue without trauma.”
Journal of Hand Surgery (British and European Volume, 1994) 19B: 4: 522-527

In simple terms (please correct me if I misunderstood something):

When a force is applied to fibrous collagen structures, the body produces enzymes and chemicals which degrade the fibres and weaken them. This allows the fibres to extend further than their normal range under force. Collagen synthesis occurs to restore the fibre cross-links in their new position giving permanent elongation.

In terms of PE, I would think that this is what happens when wearing an extender or ADS device. It would seem that a consistent routine (no rest days) with enough force to get those enzymes flowing is ideal.

The information we now need is how fast does all this happen?

Thanks, dongalong, very interesting article.

I find interesting also the few details of TEC reported in the article:


………
The continuous elongation technique (or Technica di Estensiona Continua, TEC) has been developed by
Messina (1989) and Messina and Messina (1991) for patients with such serious contracture of the fingers that amputation is often the only alternative. The fingers are slowly extended on an adjustable frame over a period of 2 to 3 weeks until the fingers are straight, at a rate of 2 mm per day prior to fasciectomy. Initially resistance to stretching is high, but is gradually reduced until at the end of the 2 to 3 week period the tissue is noticeably softer and more pliable. There is no visible evidence of tissue rupture or haemorhages at operation. The ability to stretch these long-term tough contractures, and the gradual reduction in resistance to the applied tension, suggests that it must be due to a change in the properties of the collagen, the major mechanical component in the tissue.
Collagen fibres are generally considered to be virtually inelastic, and this mechanical strength of collagen is
dependent on the formation of a series of intermolecular cross-links between the collagen molecules in the fibre………

So, TEC appears somewhat similar to Static Progressive Stretching. This approach seems to produces elongation without microtears, if I understand correctly: fibers aren’t broken, but the cross-links between collagen molecules are degraded and, then, new cross-links are estabilshed in the stretched molecules of collagenous tissue.

The query that comes in my mind : is such a technique good for not-contracted tissue? It has been developed for contracted tissue, not similar to healty tissue:


………
We have also shown that a low but significant level of these cross-links was maintained in the long-term Dupuytren’s patients (15-20 years) indicating a higher turnover of collagen than the unaffected
aponeurosis even after many years. This localized high turnover is reminiscent of hypertrophic scar tissue,
which, in contrast to normally healed scar, does not mature (Bailey et al, 1975), that is, achieve a low
turnover with a consequent maturation of the crosslinks, comparable with that of the surrounding dermis.
The role of collagen in Dupuytren’s disease has recently been reviewed (Bailey, 1990). It has long been known that Dupuytren’s tissue possesses a higher proportion of fibroblasts than normal surrounding tissue, and several groups have shown that under tension in vitro fibroblasts can be stimulated. For example, Miekle et al (1980) have shown that tensile mechanical stress on collagenous tissue also results in the release of increased amounts of collagenase.
……….

There are studies reported earlier in this same thread, however, that supports the idea that low, continuous stretching applied to collagenous tissue lead to significant changes in properties of collagenous tissue; maybe these changes are based on the same biochemichal process started by TEC.

Another point: what happens when the stretching device is removed? At the bottom of the study:


……
The release of the tension should, if the fibrotic tissue is not surgically removed, lead rapidly to contraction
and reversion to the original position of the finger as the activated fibroblasts revert to normal, and contraction occurs through the action of the myofibroblasts on stable collagen fibres.

Is that true for normal, healthy tissue, also?

dongalong, thanks for that information. That was great!

Marinera, I’ve still been away from PE and inactive, and I haven’t been reading about the science behind CT deformation lately either. Still, I’ve been visiting Thunders from time to time. I noticed your thread months ago, and read a bit of it. In the last couple of days I took a look at this thread again, and this time I decided to catch up on it a bit.

In one of your more recent post you referred to an earlier post that you made, #155. So, I went back and read it. I then noticed that the page that the other post after it was also filled with some pretty good info. In fact, I want to reply to some of your statements or questions on those posts.

Originally Posted by marinera
Tendon strain increased from 1 % to 2.4 % over the first three cycles and increased to 3 % over 50 cycles, appearing to plateau to 3.2 % thereafter (Figure 2).[/b]
…………………….

REFERENCES
De Zee, M. et al. (2000). J Appl Physiol, 89,
1352-1359.
Maganaris, C.N. (2002). J Biomech, 35,
1019-1027.

ww.exb.ucdavis.edu/faculty/Hawkins/index.htm

First, I’m thankful that you found a study that explains some of the effects of cyclic loading. In fact, I believe that the term used to describe the effects of cyclic loading on CT is hysteresis. I’m especially excited to see the percentages of strain induced after a specific number of loading cycles.

Originally Posted by marinera
So, is the deformation the last article is speaking about permanent deformation, elastic deformation, or both?

Whether or not the strain was elastic or plastic (permanent) was not made clear, but my opinion is that most of it was elastic, while a small percentage of it may have been plastic, for example .2%, but I’m just throwing that out as an example.

I believe that a strain of 3.2% after 300 reps is something to be excited about, especially when combined with the info that you posted in post #159:

Originally Posted by marinera
Noyes et al* estimated that macrofailure of CT occurs at approximately 8% elongation of the CT structure but that microfailure begins at approximately 3% elongation.

If indeed microfailure must be reached in order to create permanent gains, then the above example of cylic loading causing a strain of 3.2% may explain how gains are created by jelqing.

In fact, reaching a strain of 3% by any method of PE may very well be how permanent gains are being achieved. That was the whole point of my thread in the hanging forum called “A Possible Breakthrough”. In that thread, I didn’t present the information well. I also mixed up some other unproven ideas in with the information about reaching a targeted strain percentage, which further complicated the thread and mislead readers. Also, I first stated that the target was around 5.14%, but later found that information from the researcher Noyes stating that microfailure begins to occur at 3%.

I later became unsure that microfailures needed to be created in order to create permanent elongation in connective tissue. This was due to reading other convincing threads about the science of PE, particularly the one’s like dongalong’s post that mention changes in collagenous tissue due to a biochemical response to loading for extended periods of time. That may occur, but that is what has made me question the theory of PE by microfailure.

I must say that the microfailure theory seems to explain how gains are created by all of the different methods used. For example, suppose that ads’ing creates a strain in the CT of 2.5%, then the jelqing that follows the ads’ing more easily crosses over the strain target of 3%. I believe that you used the term “elastic dumping” in your way of explaining this.

Originally Posted by marinera
Microfailure represents the breakage of the individual collagen fibers and fiber bundles that are placed under the greatest tension during progressive deformation. The remaining intact fibers and bundles that may have not been directly aligned with the force or those that had more intrinsic length absorb a greater proportion of the load. The result is progressive, permanent (plastic) deformation of the CT structure.

J. A. Threlkeld, cit., pag. 63-64

I would like to pull out a phrase from the cited information that you posted marinera: “The remaining intact fibers and bundles that may have not been directly aligned with the force”. I believe that is why moves like V-stretches, fulcrum hanging, and using PE weights as a fulcrum while doing manual stretches creates further gains after initial gains have slowed. The fibers that were not “directly aligned” while doing the non-fulcrum stretching were not reaching microfailure, then they are targeted by using a fulcrum. To me, this is evidence that supports the theory of gains being created by inducing microfailure in the connective tissue.


Last edited by Kojack10 : 08-25-2008 at . Reason: ad a sentence

Thank for your views, Kojack10. The thread you a are referring in your post is this:

A Possible Breakthrough. About TIME !

I guess that ADS works basically on creeping, so on temporary changes of the viscoelastic properties of collagenous tissue. This has pros and cons: pros are that tissue becomes not harder, but easier to deform, as in someway the study posted by dongalong suggests; another pro : you have less probability of injuries with this approach.

The con is: permanent gains are really difficult to achieve with this technique (low load / prolonged time). The best approach would be using an ads to reduce the elasticity of collagenous tissue, and after that causing micro-failures by an high-load approach (manual stretching, hard hanging, jelqs etc.).

Specifically to cyclic loading: some studies suggest the cyclic loading is better than continuous loading, where other studies suggest the adverse. This ambiguity is a consequence of the fact that a microscopic observation of the connective tissue changes caused by different approaches is often lacking.

It is very probable that the response to cyclic loading depends on the very specifics composition of the given tissue: in example, if the tissue is highly elastic, cyclic loading could cause an enhanced shortening response and an enhancement of the elasticity, due to the cellular proliferation process started by the intermittent loading. I. e., intermittent loading could make tunica albuginea less pliable, exactly the adverse of what we want. On the other hand, intermittent stretching with high load could easily cause a so high level of microfailures to easily lead to a major injury.

The only thing that is clear to me, at this point, is: a low-tension/prolonged time approach is advisable, but it should be used in conjunction, or alternate to, a different kind of approach, like, as you said, fulcrum stretches, jelqs, hanging and so on.


Last edited by marinera : 08-25-2008 at .

I believe that the use of an ADS helps keep the penile tissues softer and more relaxed. I called this having the right “state of dick” in an older thread I started. The ADS used at the time was Monty’s PE weights, but this uses a different kind of tension than a static stretch. I used a very light weight, less than .5 lb, so I’m not sure how much different this would be from a static stretch since the pull was marginal.

Marinera,

How do you propose wearing the ADS…meaning for how long do you think it needs to be applied before the “main” from of PE is performed? Can you propose an optimum routine based on the literature to maximize creep type gains AS WELL as micro-trauma induced gains…or would that be counter-intuitive? My gains have been very minimal, and I believe this is in part due to a naturally large girth as well as very elastic tissues (grower). I am doubtful that manual efforts can produce enough load for me to gain length, even with tissues in a relaxed or weaker state. Interesting read…what I can understand at least.

Originally Posted by rushmore


Marinera,

How do you propose wearing the ADS…meaning for how long do you think it needs to be applied before the “main” from of PE is performed?

Or after (?)


Horny Bastard

Originally Posted by rushmore
I believe that the use of an ADS helps keep the penile tissues softer and more relaxed. I called this having the right “state of dick” in an older thread I started. The ADS used at the time was Monty’s PE weights, but this uses a different kind of tension than a static stretch. I used a very light weight, less than .5 lb, so I’m not sure how much different this would be from a static stretch since the pull was marginal.
………

The main difference is not in the force that is pulling but is how it’s pulling: weights pull in somewhat a dynamic way, where an extender/stretcher should pull to a given length. If you apply a weight, the tension is never diminished over the time, when if the penis is stretched at a given length, the tension in the tissue is relaxed after a while: this starts with Stress Relaxation phenomenon, and over the course of the time causes creeps-elongation. We want the penis to adapt to a longer state, not to an higher weight.

Originally Posted by rushmore
…………
Marinera,

How do you propose wearing the ADS…meaning for how long do you think it needs to be applied before the “main” from of PE is performed? Can you propose an optimum routine based on the literature to maximize creep type gains AS WELL as micro-trauma induced gains…or would that be counter-intuitive? My gains have been very minimal, and I believe this is in part due to a naturally large girth as well as very elastic tissues (grower). I am doubtful that manual efforts can produce enough load for me to gain length, even with tissues in a relaxed or weaker state. Interesting read…what I can understand at least.

I have the same your belief here: many PEer have a too strong tunica, so causing microfailures with hanging/manual stretching is not easy. Adversely, a creep elongation should be easier to achieve: here the strength of TA makes no big difference. Once the tissue is “creeped”, we have less elasticity in the tissue, less resistance to microfailures.

I believe an extender should be used for at least 30 minutes, and up to 6-8 hours, before manual stretches; the more the device is used, the more the tissue is relaxed.

Once microfailures are produced, one should rest IMHO: why wearing again the extender? If one wants more microfailures, a bit more high-load should be applied; if one wants creeps, he should wear the extender when the tissue is relaxed.

I believe that if microtears are really produced, the penis react shortening; this is a protective response that should be allowed, because, as firegoat pointed, broken fibers will be “rebuilt” in a longer state even if the tissue isn’t stretched while it’s healing: the resting length of connective fibers is longer, so the fibers will be repaired in a longer resting length, so they will be longer when stretched:


……..
Microfailure represents the breakage of the individual collagen fibers and fiber bundles that are placed under the greatest tension during progressive deformation. The remaining intact fibers and bundles that may have not been directly aligned with the force or those that had more intrinsic length absorb a greater proportion of the load. The result is progressive, permanent (plastic) deformation of the CT structure. If the force is released, the broken fibers will not contribute to the recoil of the tissue. A new length of the CT structure is established that reflects the balance between the elastic recoil of the remaining intact collagen and the resistance
of the intrinsic tissue water and glycosaminoglycans to compression.

J. A. Threlkeld, cit., pag. 63-64


(see #160)

Stretching the tissue when it is healing, this is required when major injuries are caused in a tissue, and, even in this case, the tension is never applied right after the trauma, but only after several weeks.


Last edited by marinera : 08-26-2008 at .

Originally Posted by JerseyDevil80
Interesting thread, I used to think that the spring loaded extenders constant tension had to be more effective for increasing size than the static threaded bar design but these studies appear to show that this is probably not the case. So using a vacextender or even one of the homemade extenders and just stretching the penis out to a given length, letting it get used to that length, then stretching it out a little more and repeating over and over should give better results than the spring loaded extenders, when you think about it it makes sense since the cells can adapt during the relaxation phase. And considering that the threaded bar extenders are less expensive or can be made at home the choice seems obvious. Anyway I like reading these scientific threads alot of smart people on this board. Keep the posts coming

What are other folks’ views on this? ie, Static versus Dynamic?

We need to find out how fast everything happens.
Extender wearing isn’t any faster than any other PE technique judging by some members’ results.
The routines linked in my thread - Design The Ultimate Fast Gains Routine
are all different but the results are equally as fast.
It would seem that manual stretches held for a few minutes are long enough to get beyond creep into the microfailure zone for some men - for example, Wadzilla’s Big gainer friend.
This makes me think that wearing the extender before a PE routine, although beneficial, probably isn’t as efficient as long manual stretches.

Noneone, I have a spring-loaded extender with a modified vacextender attachment. I normally keep it at a minimum tension because I once caused a blood blister at the tip of my glans after I’d set it up so that the springs were totally compressed. The uncompressed springs offer a bit of safety but the tension seems to be enough, judging by the 5mm I’ve gained during the last 3 weeks. :)

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