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A Possible Breakthrough. About TIME !

A Possible Breakthrough. About TIME !

Since mid to late 2006 I have been scouring the internet for information about the characteristics about ligaments and “permanent elongation”, which is what we all seek when targeting the suspensory ligament of the penis.

Most of the information that I would come across had already been mentioned here at Thunder’s. Nevertheless, I continued to search for more information on the net through the use of search engines. Just this week I found a few additional sites or writings that did not come up in my previous searches.

Recently I’ve began to feel that I “almost” have enough information to merit a new thread or article here on the forum. Nevertheless, I have not yet been satisfied with my level of understanding, accuracy, and the organization of the information to present. So, I’ve only continued to search and read once again.

Well, today I read over a couple of IPR threads and others about weight versus time such as the thread “More proof that long periods of hanging my be beneficial”. Reading these threads caused me to go back over one interesting study that I found, and well it so excites me to have found the information that I can’t wait any longer to further understand all of the information about elongating ligaments, or organize it perfectly.

So, here is some very interesting information that I found about how much time it takes for a ligament to recover from being stretched beyond its origanal length, which is also know as “strain” or “creep”.

“Arms et al.2 reported strains in thehuman medial collateral ligament MCL of 4% at 120°
of flexion during passive knee motion and Hull et al.13 reported human MCL strains up to 7.7%2.9% undercombined loading. Strains in these studies are based
upon in situ changes in length. The onset of mechanical
damage in the rat MCL has been shown by Provenzano
et al.21 to be at 5.1% strain after experimental preload exvivo. At strains below this threshold the tissue will return
to its original, preloaded length after a recovery time
equal to ten times the duration of tissue loading during
the test. 21 Previous studies have not studied viscoelasticbehavior at multiple deformation or load levels through-
out the physiologic domain of recoverable loading.”

So, here is the new information that I’m excited about, “At strains below this threshold the tissue will return to its original, preloaded length after a recovery time equal to TEN TIMES the duration of tissue loading during the test”.

“How is that applicable to lig focused routines” you may ask? Well first, we need to understand that for permanent elongation to take place, the ligament needs to experience a strain of just over 5.1%. Remember strain or creep is the amount of stretch that has occured in the ligament beyond its original extended length.

Well, to shoot only for a strain of 5.1% in one session may be dangerous, due to the fact that we do not know beforehand how much weight and time it will take, and one may over estimate the force required.

Still, it is my own personal belief that this is how newbies achieve easy gains. They are able to achieve a sufficient strain without using excessive force. Also, this may be how the IPR micro-cycle worked for Exeno. He deconditioned enough, “and” was able to accurately estimate the amount of weight and time needed. ADS’ing also extends time under tension, even though the tension is low, I believe that it can cover a person and give him sufficient TIME.

If you do not reach a sufficient strain in one session or day, then the IPR route is not best for you. So then this information about the time necessary for ligaments to recover from the strain is applicable in that we can hang for long enough on consecutive days, in order to accumulate enough strain that will eventually exceed that 5.1% threshold.

For example one could hang for 3 hours total each day with about 8 lbs. , or some other weight that is light enough to hang on consecutive days. If the 8 lbs. isn’t enough to produce a sufficient strain in one day, part of that strain will still be present in the ligs on the nest day.

The math would go as follows. 3 hours of the first 24 hour day hanging, which would require 30 hours for the ligament to fully recover (ten times the 3 hours). Then on the next day you hang at the same time. Only 21 hours passed since you began your last session. Only 66% or 2/3 of the recovery time has lapsed. Therefore, you can add the success of your second session on top of the strain still existing in your ligs from the previous day.

If you do not reach sufficient strain in one session or day, and then give your ligs too much time to recover, as in more than ten times the amount of time that you were hangind, your ligs will only begin to build up a resistance to that particular amount of weight (force) used. The ligs begin to build up a tolerance or resistance to a specific amount of force as soon as hanging begins, but it is very minute and increases over days and weeks. This happens by the collagen matrix beggining to align itself in the most effective manner to avoid damage being done to the ligs. Still, damage is what we are seeking, sub-failure damage, possbly micro-tears, but I need to research more in order to be sure.

Another source, that I cannot seem to find the link to again, stated that the 40% - 60% of the strain (additional stretch) is recovered in the ligament within the first hour after the load is removed. Then, the rest of the strain is recovered from within 24 - 48 hours. Well, now instead of only knowing about that broad 24-48 hours, we have an exact multiplier of ten times the amount of time that the ligament spent under the load.

The link to the site is http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/LigNLV.pdf

For it to be a true breakthrough, I’m sure that we need results in the form of length gains as proof.

Still, I feel that the many of the vets here have gained with routines that line up with this time multiplier.

For example, it has be stated that most (other than newbies) require ten hours or more of hanging in order to see gains. Now, if a guy followed the hanging 101 routine, he would hang 5 on, and 2 off. If he followed the rule of 10 hours or more, he would hang at least 2 hours each day. With two hours hang time, 6 x 20 minutes, and 10 minutes rest between each session, at least 3 hours have been spent on the daily routine. Now that leaves him 21 hours before the next day sessions. Using the “ten times” rule regarding hang time for recovery, the strain in his suspesory ligament will last for 20 hours, almost 21. That may be the very reason for the 10 hour minimum hang time threshold for those who are not newbies. Also, I have reason to believe that ADS’ing will slow down the rate at which the strain is lost in the ligs. This may be how light ADS’ing is effective. Also, somewhat heavier ADS’ing may even add additional buildup of strain/creep, however it may be minute, or only be more effective at slowing down the loss/recovery of strain/creep. (when I use the word recovery, I’m not refering to healing, but to the ligament lossing the strain or creep that was induced in it) This may be why ADS’ing combined with heavier work is helping some begin to gain. This also “possibly” explains newbie gains, and gains by vets with extensive routines that exhibit the use of heavier weights (sub-failure damage/beyond 5.14% in one day), or more time (enough time with light weigts/force to accumulate strain over consecutive days).

I’m going on further than I initially intended, much further. I need to stop for now.

So, what are your thoughts?

Oh, all rights remain with the authors of the study. The reference or work cited is the link above.

Excellent article, Kojack: more support for the ADS/Never Let It Turtle model of PE.

GM

Good find.

Yes, the fidings of the study do support the use of an ADS.

Most importantly, we now know that the additional stretch created in your suspensory ligament by hanging weights last ten times the amount of hang time. So, if you hung 5 lbs. for 1 hour, the additional stretch (strain/creep) in your ligs will last 10 hours (10 x 1 hour).

That is as simple as I can put it. Possibly I should have stated things in this manner.

I agree with Glandmaster.

Kojack, does this only apply to hanging, or does it apply to manual stretches as well?

Originally Posted by GlandMaster
Excellent article, Kojack: more support for the ADS/Never Let It Turtle model of PE.

GM


The aim of life is self-development. To realize one's nature perfectly - that is what each of us is here for.

~Oscar Wilde~

quik4life, it would apply to any time that you are stretching the ligs. In the case of manual excersises, think of total time under tension. It does add up when counting all stretches and jelqs for a given session. To be honest with you, I believe this is most easily applied to haging, followed by extenders and so on.

Permanent elongation requires a strain of 5.1%, so using that multiplier of 10 x time under tension, one can find the total time necessary if one wants to accumulate strain from one session to he next.

Newbies and very deconditioned experienced PE’ers, and hardcore heavy PE’ers, may achieve a strain of or near 5.1% in a single session or day, therefore allowing for rest days is OK. It is actually best for newbies, since they are new to PE, and can easily over do it. It also fits with heavy routines, since heavy work puts stress on the other tissues of the penis besides the ligs, and they need recovery.

The main thrust of this information is that, unless you achieve a sufficient strain in the ligs in one session, more time is necessary for lesser strains to accumulate and become strains that eventually, over multiple days, cross the 5.1% yeild point.

In my opinion, this is why members have gained with both everyday routines, and routines that include rest days. You either add up small successes over consecutive days, or you make larger successes on your on days.

Well, it seems that very few members have become excited about this info. I want to say though, that I’m not complaining about this, and that the lack of excitement is probably a good thing. You see, this was only a theory that I had based the science of how ligaments permanently elongate. No doubt that ligs permanently elongate after a strain of 5.1%, but this was done in one session, such as one hanging session. Further research has led me to believe that this would basically be a “ligament sprain”. Sure the lig would be longer, but you’d have more scar tissue after healing, and possibly more pain and injury to “other” tissues of the penis. My theory was that it would be optimal to reach a strain of 5.1% by adding the 2% stretch of one day upon the next day’s session. Again, this was only a theory, and theories are to be tested and stormed with other information in order to prove them wrong. Ony if they pass are they then considered accurate.

Here’s the actual link to the exact study about permanent elongation occuring after the strain reached 5.1%. http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/LigSubFailDmg.pdf

Quote
Statistically, the onset of structural damage (us) was found to be at a strain of
5.14% from preload, and this level of strain can be seen
to be well within the linear region of the stress-strain
curve for the rat ligaments used in this study (Figs. 5).
The 95% profile likelihood confidence intervals for
structural damage are 4.50–5.69. The onset of changes
in cellular damage (uc) was found to be 0 (e 5 0%). That
is, statistically, changes in cellular damage in rat
MCLs begin with the application of ligament strain
from preload, and structural damage occurs at strains
.5.14% from preload.

Now, oddly enough, I originally posted this thread to show the imformation the amount of time that it takes for a ligament to return to its original length, which is supposedly 10 times the time under load.

Here’s a quote from that study which is at this link, the same as in my first post. http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/LigSubFailDmg.pdf

Quote
At strains below this threshold the tissue will return
to its original, preloaded length after a recovery time
equal to ten times the duration of tissue loading during
the test.21

So, there the info is in a bit more clarified form.

Oh, thankfully a moderator suggestion that I should have put the info in quotes. I foolishly thought that he meant qoutation marks, when he actualy mean a QUOTE. So I learned how to do it.

It was just a theory of mines that this info could help set broad guidlines for a routine. I’m kinda throwing the idea of accumulating stretch up to a 5.1% out of the window, since I believe plastic deformation may occur at lower levels of strain. Still, knowing that ligaments fully return to their previous length after 10 times the duration of tissue loading is helpful regarding the understanding of frequency, and ideas behind ADS’ing.

I’m really excited about this break through. Long slow static stretch! Long slow jelqs!


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

I’m not sure about how this would, or could apply to jelqing. In fact, the only thing that I feel is applicable is knowing that if you hang for one hour, the ligs have returned to normal after 10 hours of being at rest, unless an ADS is used which may slow down the ligs from returning to their previous length completely. Month530 called it “gain retention”. That may be exactly what an ADS, or very light weights do.

Originally Posted by Kojack10
I’m not sure about how this would, or could apply to jelqing. In fact, the only thing that I feel is applicable is knowing that if you hang for one hour, the ligs have returned to normal after 10 hours of being at rest, unless an ADS is used which may slow down the ligs from returning to their previous length completely. Month530 called it “gain retention”. That may be exactly what an ADS, or very light weights do.

I like bed fowfers and fowfers, in fact I’m doing fowfers now. Similar principle to adds or hanging, or even traction. You break a leg the paramedics put a traction device on your leg it hurts like hell pull it pulls the bones back into alignment so they can mend. Or if a trochantor is out of alignment the traction motion pulls the leg until the socket lines up again. Or in some cases keeps the leg still so no further damage is done.

Ligaments are like rubber bands but eventually they will stretch to a new position a larger one instead of returning back to the same shape and elasticity. Dick are made of elastic tissues able to stretch and eventually come to a different longer position.

As far as jelqing goes it would apply in that the longer it takes to reach the end of your penis the better the gains. 3-5 seconds, 5-10 seconds. Especially if your jelq down for lig work as oppose to jelqing up for tunica.

Well anyway, has this worked for you have you tried this out this theory?


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

Hi Kojack,

I appreciate the article. I believe it explains the mechanism behind why the routines of some of the old timers, that claim to have gained several inches, worked.

Take a look at the routine BIB was doing. He hung till reaching fatigue, lowered the weight and hung some more. He also hung several sessions throughout the day and never really took any days off. By doing sessions throughout the day and not taking days off, the collagenous tissues never returned to their original length. Each subsequent stretch pulled the tissues back out and possibly just a little bit more.

On a side note, I really don’t see how this article proves that an ADS would be beneficial. I believe it takes the same level of tension in subsequent stretches (done within the ‘ten times’ recovery period) to overcome the bodies ability to recover, returning the tissues to their original length, as it did during the first stretch. Therefore, I don’t believe an ADS can do anything to build up to that magical 5.1% unrecoverable stretch. If it doesn’t bring on fatigue, the tension is just too light.

Hey Kojack. I’m willing to test this out. I only use manual exercises but I could try to concoct an all day routine to accumalate the strain before the 10x healing has finished. How long (if at all) do you believe the rest period should be once you’ve crossed that 5% threshold?


Started:| 14 cm (unsure if BP or NBP) EG (mid-shaft) - 10.75 cm |

Current:| NBPEL - 17 cm; EG (circum scar) - 10.75 cm; (base) 14 cm |

Short-t Objective:| NBPEL - 18.5 cm EG (circum scar) - 11.5 cm |

Originally Posted by Dick Builder
Hi Kojack,

On a side note, I really don’t see how this article proves that an ADS would be beneficial. I believe it takes the same level of tension in subsequent stretches (done within the ‘ten times’ recovery period) to overcome the bodies ability to recover, returning the tissues to their original length, as it did during the first stretch. Therefore, I don’t believe an ADS can do anything to build up to that magical 5.1% unrecoverable stretch. If it doesn’t’t bring on fatigue, the tension is just too light.

We can theorize that an ADS does not put enough tension on the ligs to create any additional strain/stretch. That’s just a theory too, it may very well induce some strain even if it is minimal depending on how much force is used. Well, if it doesn’t add strain, it may very well slow down the amount of time that it takes for a lig to return to its previous size. I really believe that an ADS does this, at the least, while it may create gains on its own for some with deconditioned ligs.

Kingpole, I have not tested these theories or tried them. I’m just returning to PE once again, and I’m really trying to gain a better understanding of what it takes to permanently lengthen connective tissue. I’m currently hanging 1 lb. for 3 hours every day, and wearing an ADS in the evening. I’ve been doing this for just over a week. I use the vac attachment from a vac extender.

redeyez, I’d hardly know where to begin, except to advise for am, mid-day, and pm stretches of light to moderate intensity. I’d suggest that you take a look at Yguy’s routine (if that is how you spell it?). He did manual exercises for much of his gains, and would do them spread out over the day. As for the rest period, I’d only ADS for about 2-4 weeks, then do nothing for 2-3 months.

As for that 5.1% threshold, I’m “not sure” it needs to be our aim. Yes, once that amount of strain is reached, the stretch is permanent, but that degree of strain occurring in one session would result in a ligament injury, basically a “sprain”. Now, reaching that degree over many days would not be a sprain, but I am not qualified to be certain on this issue.

What we are shooting for is plastic deformation in the ligament. It may begin to occur at lower strains, such as a 2% strain. In this case, the ligament would probably lose most of additional stretch, but may be ever slightly longer, as in micro meters, or nano meters, and certainly not millimeters.

This quote from he same study and link is causing me to consider this.

Quote
Early studies of mechanical properties of tendons and ligaments disclosed that irreversible mechanical
behavior (and presumably damage) occurs at relatively low levels of strain [2.5–4.5% beyond preloaded reference
levels (32, 38)].

and

Quote
Strain in fibroblasts during in vitro equibiaxial testing on membranes are often higher than the tissue strains at which we are reporting cell
damage (e . 2% from a preloaded state).

This information that is quoted in the same study lead me to believe that the plastic range may begin at about 2.5% strain. I am “not sure” though. I am continuing to reread the information. The quote says that cell damage begins at about 2%, and the first one says that irreversible mechanical behavior occurs at low levels of strain, about just over 2.5%. Again, I am not sure!

Ok, some people might say that I am speaking too soon, since I am not sure. Well, my intent for starting this thread was to begin a debate and discussion in order to learn together. Some of you may comprehend something that I do not understand.

What I do know is that some of the stretches and exercises that I have done have only taken me into the elastic range. The ligament fully returns to its original length after this type of stretch. Yet, if plastic deformation is achieved, some extra length is gained, even if it is undetectable because it measures only micrometers.

What do we have to do in order to induce plastic deformation?

1. Warm up with a warm compress.
2. Keep the warm compress on while stretching, hanging, or using an extender, for up to 30 minutes, or the first half of the hanging set.
3. The force needs to be applied for a long duration. Low forces should be considered in order to prevent over training, and avoid damaging “other” tissues of the penis.
4. Consider using a cold pack for the last 10 minutes of the hanging set. This is thought to help cause plastic deformation in the ligament.

How often should this be done, as in every day, or multiple times per day is up for discussion. Any ideas?

I say go low force such as 5 lbs. after deconditioning, and do a morning set with a vac hanger. Start with 20-30 minute sets, and work up to 45 minutes - 1hr. Then, wear an ADS through the day. It may be possible to do another evening set, or even a mid-day hanging set. Watch you PI’s ! The physiological indicators mentioned by sparkyx. If negative indicators arise, do only one set in the morning. Back off as needed. (vets may need heavier weights, judge accordingly) Also, the longer the total hang time, the better, as long as the weight is low enough.

Read the thread, “More proof that long periods of hanging may be beneficial”, it is stickied to the top of this forum.

This is the routine that I plan to begin. I will start off with 45 minute sets because I am experienced with hanging, and with the vac extender.

Oh, the link for the information quoted in this post is in the 7th post on this thread, the silver neep link.

This makes sense to me. Although I haven’t been measuring, so there is certainly an element of subjectivity in what I am writing here, I have recently been seeing some good gains. I haven’t had time to do my pumping/jelquing routine as much as usual, so I have started stretching every time I go to the bathroom. I spend about 5 minutes each time, several times a day. The danger is that I dont usually warm up. So far, no problem. I just take it easy. Anyway, I am constantly, not letting my penis “turtle” and I swear I am seeing gains. I do this everday without rest days.

Hi

I started hanging about 2 pounds about 8 hours a day for about one week.

Well I think it is helping my flaccid length, I have not checked EL yet. I think it should work.

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