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Loading, lengthening, healing.

2 phase PE?

So said, holding in mind specific adaptations of CT to, respectively, [low loads-long time] and [high loads-short time], we could try putting these principles in “layman terms”.

It seems reasonable to try a first phase with low loads, long time, typically wearing an extender, 3-6 days per weeks, 2-8 hours daily, for a total amount of 600-800 h. This should cause an “elastic dumped” adaptation of CT, reducing the resistance to strains.

The second phase should be based on high-loads, short work, 2-5 sessions per weeks. In this phase, the “elastic dumped” adaptations could go back, enhancing again resistance of CT. So, it would be wise wearing an extender at least 2 times per week x two hours.

Both phases should call for heating and cool down, how mentioned before. There is also an excellent thread by Iguana about benefits of heating and cooling on CT:

Cool Down - YES You NEED It!

An alternative approach would be wearing an extender for some hours daily and, after that, doing a brief session with high-loads. It seem that this last approach would be less effective, however.

We have yet to add some references about CT adaptations to work, but, for now, I think, would be better to digest the amount of information that has been already provided.


Last edited by marinera : 07-01-2008 at .

high load : how?

Now, as seen before (see #107, in example), the best way to deform CT (and we are speaking of permanent deformation, now) is loading it at slow rate. It means that the weight should augment slowly from low to high : dL/dt (where “L” = load and “t” = time) should be the lowest possible, the absolute load should be the max possible.

With which technique/device this slow rate of load can be obtained?

The first, natural answer is: manual stretching. As I can see, for length manual stretching is the king: there aren’t devices that allow to use a so high load, hitting in the same way the whole penis, in smooth increasing manner.

I know that many hangers will not agree, and it’s fine to me; but the sole type of hangers that I know that can apply the weight in a way similar to manual stretching are vac-hangers; by what I know, however, you can’t use a very high weight with a vac-hanger. I never tried the Redi-stretch or Cap-wench kind of hangers, so can’t speak about them. The Bib-hanger apply the load only on a part of the shaft; also, depending on the shape of the penis, it could be dangerous for nerves; finally, if you are uncut, you’ll have so much loose skin that you could export it.

More generally, hangers put the weight in un-efficient way:

a) the major stress is sustained by ligs; many men, I suspect, have ligs less resistant then TA, so one can’t use an optimal load because ligs are the limiting factor;
b) when hanging, the weight is free in space, so is exerting a tension along three vectors; if one wants length gains (one vector), the tension is partially lost. One can try a pulley to reduce such a vectorial “dispersion”, but is less easy than using free hands.
When stretching, one is exerting the tension along two vectors, and maybe approximating the one-vector-tension.

The other device that allow a slows rate loading is the pump. There are three problems here:
1. The tension is exerted on both axis, so the force are in some way “fighting each others”.
2. load can’t be so high, generally speaking;
3. if you are uncut, loose skin.

Originally Posted by ThunderSS

I am getting real tired of this shit gentlemen. Why does every rebuttal have to have a personal edge on it? You roosters trying to impress the other roosters or an unseen hen?

Yep. That’s why I’m keeping out of it. Trying to. (:

Cluck.

Well I’m more cock than hen. :rolleyes:

I am always interested to see what deductions guys draw from the scientific info on these matters, or what deductions they glean from reading thousands of posts on this site. I’m most interested in personal experience.

I will never give a vote of confidence to any one side or the other; that’s not fence-sitting, it’s the practical experience of the fact many approaches work.

I am very happy that guys want to explore both the scientific info, and what has worked for others (even of it farts in the face of what should work).

With PE I have found that taking an un-shakeable stance is never a good idea. Whichever side of the fence you fall.

I look at rat-tail data, and know that it represents a good model of connective tissue elongation. It does not show how the body adapts as a result; the tissue is dead. I look at so much scientific data and try to transpose what should work onto what actually works in practice.

I have seen some of the med guys here give it the med speak, from time to time. It impresses others. I avoid it.

I’m not in the business of stoking my ego; never have been.

I know the pumpers build size. The hangers build size. The ADS’ers. The clampers, the manual guys, the guys who rest, the guys who don’t. Different things work at different stages of your ‘PE career’.

If you impose a stress load on the body, it will do it’s best to adapt to that stress. I look after a lot of athletes, and their injuries; all their coaches have different ideas on training. Guess what? Some ideas have stood the test of time, but no two athletes get the same training. Sometimes it’s because muscle biopsies have shown that a certain regimen ‘may’ suit that athlete better, but mostly it’s good old fashioned trial and error. Some guys are just lucky and find the ‘right’ coach for them, with the right methods. Others don’t, and never reach their full potential; but all of them, if they train consistently, make progress in their respective sports.

Use any method of PE you like. If it gives results, tell us here. If you are a newbie, use a suitable method for newbies.

If you are heavily conditioned, you will need different methods; methods that could stop a newbie’s gains in their tracks, or cause difficulty in gaining more in the long term (but may be the only way to force further growth out of an over-conditioned dick, if unwilling to take extended decons).

Much better to think of PE as an art, than a science. Maybe it will become a science, but I bet the science will only increase gain rates by a few small percent over what the ‘art’ approach gives.

The human body wants to adapt.

Time and consistency are infinitely more important than method.


Heat makes the difference between gaining quickly or slowly for some guys, or between gaining slowly instead of not at all for others. And the ideal penis size is 7.6" BPEL x 5.6" Mid Girth.

Basics.... firegoat roll How to use the Search button for best results

Originally Posted by firegoat
…..
The human body wants to adapt.

Time and consistency are infinitely more important than method.

You know that I well agree on that.

dynamic sub-maximal loading and creeping plateau

I think this article is extremely interesting, I will comment it in a next post:

Tendons are important viscoelastic
structures……..
The stiffer the tendon, the smaller the length change and velocity during shortening and the greater the length
change and velocity during lengthening. Understanding the viscoelastic behavior of
tendon is fundamental for understanding muscle-tendon mechanics ………..
Ex-vivo studies show tendons elicit viscoelastic behavior (stress relaxation, creep, hysteresis, etc.) (De Zee, et. al., 2000) and often experience permanent deformation and stiffness changes in response to repetitive loading. This raises some perplexing questions about how these tendons respond to repetitive loading in-vivo
(tendons obviously restore rest-length over some finite time in-vivo) and whether exvivo studies accurately reflect in-vivo tendon behavior. This study quantified the magnitude of Achilles tendon dynamic creep in-vivo and compared these results to ex-vivo results.
…….

METHODS
Dynamic creep of the Achilles tendon was
quantified in-vivo for a healthy male subject
(42 years of age, 734 N).

The subject avoided placing load on the
Achilles tendon of the right leg for
approximately one hour prior to testing. The
subject then performed over 300 cyclic
contractions attempting to produce 25 % of
maximum voluntary force in 1 second
intervals. Data were collected for the initial
3 cycles and then for 5 cycles after every 50
cycles.
…………………
Tendon strain was defined as the difference between tendon length at peak force during a contraction and in its rest state prior to the start of testing, divided by the initial rest length. Tendon strain was plotted as a function of cycle number.

RESULTS & DISCUSSION

The Achilles tendon experienced dynamic creep. Tendon strain increased from 1 % to 2.4 % over the first three cycles and increased to 3 % over 50 cycles, appearing to plateau to 3.2 % thereafter (Figure 2).
…………………….
This initial response of relatively high stiffness is not accounted for in two other studies reporting
dynamic creep (De Zee, 2000 and Maganaris, 2002). This difference is likely due to pre-conditioning that is commonly performed prior to ex-vivo testing and that occurs naturally prior to most human testing.
Although this experiment shows an asymptotic response, it is unclear if and when dynamic creep ceases to take place beyond 300 cycles. How the body adapts to dynamic creep and the overall effect it has
on functional performance is uncertain.

REFERENCES
De Zee, M. et al. (2000). J Appl Physiol, 89,
1352-1359.
Maganaris, C.N. (2002). J Biomech, 35,
1019-1027.

IN VIVO QUANTIFICATION OF ACHILLES TENDON DYNAMIC CREEP
Russell Dunning, B.S. and David A. Hawkins, Ph.D.
Human Performance Laboratory, Biomedical Engineering Graduate Group
University of California, Davis

ww.exb.ucdavis.edu/faculty/Hawkins/index.htm

That is quite an interesting article marinera. :)


Heat makes the difference between gaining quickly or slowly for some guys, or between gaining slowly instead of not at all for others. And the ideal penis size is 7.6" BPEL x 5.6" Mid Girth.

Basics.... firegoat roll How to use the Search button for best results

Thank you FG :) .

Do you want to play a little with that?

One of the reasons why I found the article cited in post #155 is related to this:

author’s are speaking of dynamic creep as a cause of permanent deformation, where before we have seen that many others experts are pointing out that creep-related deformation is not permanent deformation. As the attached diagram shows (l-s.jpeg, from “A Joseph Threlkeld - The effects of manual therapy ..”,cited ), however, some physiological stimulus can be so high to cause some micro-failure and so permanent elongation (not creeps related).The area of micro-failure is really short and near to the area of injury.

So, is the deformation the last article is speaking about permanent deformation, elastic deformation, or both?

The load applied is low, because only about 25% of max contraction.

After three 1 second cycles, that are supposed to cause s.c. “conditioning elongation”, the elongation gain in 47 cycles is 0.6%; the next 250 cycles gives only another 0.2% elongation, after that a stalling in length gain appears.

So, in only 300 seconds of low-load, fast repetitive loading, a plateau is obtained, whereas the plateau obtained with a constant low appears after 6-8 hours.

Attached Images
l-s.jpg
(99.8 KB, 55 views)

Last edited by marinera : 07-05-2008 at .

What is the micro-failure load?

A very important question : what’s the load that could cause micro-failures (so permanent elongation) without causing macro-failure (injury)?


Noyes et al* estimated that macrofailure of CT occurs at approximately 8% elongation of the CT structure but that microfailure begins at approximately 3% elongation. If I make the simplifying assumption that the stress-strain curve is linear and use the elongation estimates of Noyes and colleagues for microfailure and macrofailure, CT would begin to experience microfailure at around 224 to 1,136 N (24 - 115 kg).

*Noyes FR, Butler DL, Paulos LE, Grood ES.
Intra-articular cruciate reconstruction, I: perspectives
on graft strength, vascularization and
immediate motion after replacement. Clin Orthop.
1983; 172:7 1-77.


A. J. Threlkeld, cited, pag. 5.


Now, before you go hanging a cow with your penis, you could read this article:
Vacuum Erection Associated Impotence and Peyronie's Disease

Lawrence S. Hakima, Ricardo M. Munarriza, Haluk Kulaksizoglua, Ajay Nehraa,
Daniel Udelsona and Irwin Goldsteina
aDepartment of Urology, Boston University School of Medicine and Department of
Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering, College of Engineering, Boston University,
Boston, Massachusetts.

American Urological Association, Inc. Published by Elsevier
Inc.
Clinical Urology: Original Article
Vacuum Erection Associated Impotence and Peyronie's Disease
Lawrence S. Hakima, Ricardo M. Munarriza, Haluk Kulaksizoglua, Ajay Nehraa,
Daniel Udelsona and Irwin Goldsteina
aDepartment of Urology, Boston University School of Medicine and Department of
Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering, College of Engineering, Boston University,
Boston, Massachusetts.

Available online 25 November 2005.


A 66-year-old potent man used a nonmedical vacuum erection device (cylinder plus
a hand pump without a pressure-release valve and a doughnut-shaped ring at the
base without tension bands) after having achieved a spontaneous rigid erection.

The subject had, as a consequence, a dorsal curvature and a mid-shaft Peronie’s plaque.
According authors, the plaque was due a too high pulling forces, because the hand-pump used had no pressure-release valve and because the penis was eretced when pulled by the pressure.

This “prohibitively high” pulling force was estimated in about 29 pounds (roughly 13 kg). So much force had, in the authors’ opinion, damaged the mid-shaft tunica and the crus (veno-occlusive dysfunction).

Link


Last edited by marinera : 04-09-2009 at .

Look at your FL?

Let’s reflect a moment on this:

The region of microfailure overlaps the end of the physiologic loading zone. Microfailure represents the breakage of the individual collagen fibers and fiber bundles that are placed under the greatest tension during progressive deformation. The remaining intact fibers and bundles that may have not been directly aligned with the force or those that had more intrinsic length absorb a greater proportion of the load. The result is progressive, permanent (plastic) deformation of the CT structure. If the force is released, the broken fibers will not contribute to the recoil of the tissue. A new length of the CT structure is established that reflects the balance between the elastic recoil of the remaining intact collagen and the resistance
of the intrinsic tissue water and glycosaminoglycans to compression.

J. A. Threlkeld, cit., pag. 63-64

If we suppose that TA = tendon, and if we are using high-loads, than a longer FL, lasting more than some hour, is the signal that micro-failure have been produced, that rest or lighter work si required in the next days, and that we have achieved permanent gains.

On the other hand, this simple translation is empirically hard, because FL is dependant largely on blood-flow, water retenction, degree of flaccidity etc. etc..


Last edited by marinera : 07-06-2008 at .

Originally Posted by marinera
Elastic gains are not gains.

If one stretch with a significative load, after a couple of, let’s say, 30” stretches, your penis is not elongated anymore. Also, it tends to return to it’s original length.


Yes, I think we can agree that elastic gains are temporary. And yes, they do return to the original length eventually, that’s the reason I don’t take rest days when training. I don’t want to end up back where I started, I want to accumulate more temporary gains before he old ones have completely reverted back - an evolution. I think this is the key to gaining.

You say the penis is not elongated anymore after a certain amount of time. I think this is the part where the plastic deformation begins and the elastic gains becomes permanent. Elastic gains plays a key-role in my view. I believe every permanent gain derives from elastic gains as I explained earlier.
What do you mean by 30”? Minutes?

Originally Posted by marinera
If you repeat the stretches again and again, you are avoiding the elastic response - that’s why you can hung a bit more when flaccid.


I don’t understand this bit. What do you mean by elastic response and how is it that repeated stretches helps avoiding it?

Originally Posted by marinera
Add even more stretch, and your tissues are having significant damages, so you don’t hung longer - you actually have shrinkage. This is a sign you have to rest.


I’ve actually had very few shrinkages from PE. The ones I did have was back when I was new to PE.

Originally Posted by marinera
Repeat this kind of work day after day, month after month. You can have gains, but the price you have to pay is: over-strengthened tissues, higher risks of injuries. The adaptation process is not optimal: you are having, at some degree, a kind of pathological adaptation (don’t take the word “pathological” in a too much technique meaning, however).


I don’t really understand, how do you think gains work? Are you talking about actual growth theories?

Originally Posted by Dicko7X5
Yes, I think we can agree that elastic gains are temporary. And yes, they do return to the original length eventually, that’s the reason I don’t take rest days when training. I don’t want to end up back where I started, I want to accumulate more temporary gains before he old ones have completely reverted back - an evolution. I think this is the key to gaining.

You say the penis is not elongated anymore after a certain amount of time. I think this is the part where the plastic deformation begins and the elastic gains becomes permanent. Elastic gains plays a key-role in my view. I believe every permanent gain derives from elastic gains as I explained earlier.
What do you mean by 30”? Minutes?

I don’t understand this bit. What do you mean by elastic response and how is it that repeated stretches helps avoiding it?

I’ve actually had very few shrinkages from PE. The ones I did have was back when I was new to PE.

I don’t really understand, how do you think gains work? Are you talking about actual growth theories?

I think the references I’ve posted on this thread are directed to explain some basic points about connective tissue adaptation. One of these points is the real meaning of “plastic deformation”, or “creep deformation”.

“Plastic deformation” and “creeps” are generally used when speaking of the behavior of not-living things - a road, a piece of metal etc.. In this field, “plastic deformation” means “permanent deformation”; “creep deformation” is the same phenomena, and relates to how this plastic deformation happens.

When transferred to connective tissue, “creep deformation” is not permanent : the tissue is returning, slowly, to it’s original state. That’s what I can read in the studies cited here.

To have real permanent deformation of CT you have to cause microfailures. So you have to apply an high load; and you want to apply this high load for a brief amount of time, to avoid macrofailures (AKA injuries).

Now: if you are applying a load lighter than the load required to cause micro-failures, you are attempting to cause “creep deformation”. Repeating the process again and again, you have to suppose, will cause some microfailures- But, if you want to reach this goal, you should try to obtain a plateau in the “creep deformation”; when the creep deformation is stalling, the load start to cause microtears easier - that’s because the CT is opposing less resistance to load.

The best way to cause “creep deformation” (according to most studies) is to apply a constant, low load for many hours - that’s because the higher the rate/time and the amount of the load, the higher the shortening response of the elastic tissue.

We have seen that a constant, low load, applied continuously, cause a plateau after several hours, when a low-medium load, applied cyclically at fast rate, cause a major plateau after 50 s. If the load is applied at a constant rate, say raising the tension at 0.2 lbs/ 1 s, for 10 sec, starting from very low tension to high loads, we should expect that the plateau is touched in, let’s say 2 minutes : so, four cycles of 30 s (or 30”).
That’s the way physiotherapists recommend to stretch : 4-5 sets x 15-30 s. After 4-5 cycles of stretching, there is no more elongation: so, short-time elastic adaptation is stalling, and (maybe) some degree of microfailures adaptation is “activated”.

This explication is maybe lacking of one of “the piece of the puzzle” : the stress-relaxation. I will speak of that in the next post. But I hope the above resume has some logical sound already.

Sorry I didn’t read the whole thread, it got a bit out of control hehe :)

What I mean by plastic deformation (PD) is when the elastic gains has reached a point where microtears/microfailure start to happen and the deformation becomes permanent. As I understand it PD is a result of microtears/microfailure so they go hand in hand.

I don’t think you have to (I didn’t) use high loads to cause PD/microfailure but as you suggest it might be more effective.

For me, practically, I seem to reach PD/microfailure after about a gain of 0.5-0.7 centimeters. If I stop at 0.4 cm it will revert back, but if I keep going to about 0.5-0.7 cm PD/microfailure kicks in and the gains get permanent. This is individual, some people are just more or less elastic.

But from what I understand you acknowledge that gains that is not yet permanent slowly returns to it’s original size, then wouldn’t rest days be counter-productive?

Originally Posted by Dicko7X5
…………
For me, practically, I seem to reach PD/microfailure after about a gain of 0.5-0.7 centimeters. If I stop at 0.4 cm it will revert back, but if I keep going to about 0.5-0.7 cm PD/microfailure kicks in and the gains get permanent. This is individual, some people are just more or less elastic.

But from what I understand you acknowledge that gains that is not yet permanent slowly returns to it’s original size, then wouldn’t rest days be counter-productive?

It seems that, basically, we have similar views on this subject.

Maybe, applying cyclically medium loads for many hours daily will lead to micro-tears when temporary gains (creeps deformation) will start stalling; I supposed the same about extenders use. But this is just an hypothesis.

Rest-days when using low loads are not mandatory; but, after a given amount of time, and a given frequency, there is no more benefit in applying such a low load; I think these posts are somewhat interesting, on this point:

matti - Penimaster anyone tried it?

matti - Penimaster anyone tried it?

DrMT - Penimaster anyone tried it?

there are many posts of this kind - what they suggest?

Adversely, if you are using high-loads (causing micro-tears), rest days are mandatory if you want to avoid injury.

The problem is: what happens when you are using medium loads?

Keep posting, Dicko, your views are really interesting to me :thumbs:

stress relaxation

Let’s look again an article that I posted before in this thread:


Treatment of a Knee Contracture Using a Knee Orthosis Incorporating Stress- Relaxation Techniques
…………
Creep-based therapies apply a constant load over a prolonged period of time. Examples of creepbased therapies
include what is called “dynamic splinting” (using devices that apply a constant load to a limb segment 011 either side of a joint with a contraction for 8-12 hours) and traction. Stress-relaxation techniques apply a constant displacement and allow the stress to decrease as a function of time, presumably as the tissue relaxes. Use of serial casting' (using sequentially applied casts), use of turnbuckles (adjustable mechanical devices that increase range of motion [ROM] by altering the position of a contracted joint in incremental
steps), and some forms of manual therapy are based on stress relaxation. Progressive stretching techniques,
where joints are maintained in positions, are based on stress-relaxation concepts because there are incremental increases in the stretch applied to soft tissues. Physical therapy based on a progressive
stretching protocol is one example of a manual approach for restoration of ROM.
………….

The following protocol was adhered to for this patient. The orthosis was adjusted to a positiorl matching the angle of the contracture and applied to the patient
………….
The patient increased extension by rotating the ratchet on the orthosis until resistance was met. The resistance point is similar to the “RI” point (or point at which first resistance is met) used in manual therapy.':' The patient maintained the position for approximately 5 minutes to allow for tissue stress relaxation to occur. The duration of 5 minutes was selected based on the use of this approach to rehabilitate patients with elbow coritractures.After 5 minutes had elapsed, the patient then increased the joint position further into extension
until new resistance was met. This cycle was repeated six times during each 30-minute treatment session.
……….
The settings on the orthosis are patient directed; thus, the patient and not the device determines the maximum stretch imparted during each step of therapy. The patient is actively integrated into the rehabilitation program. The use of stress-relaxation conditions also makes it possible to incremenitally
advance the joint in 5-minute stretch-and-hold steps, because relaxation of the tissue is allowed to occur.

…………….

The patient used the orthosis for 29 days. One 30-minute session was completed on each of the first 7 days. The patient used the orthosis for two sessions on each of the next 7 davs.
During the last 15 days, the patient used the device three times per day.

Candy M Jansen
JE Windau
Peter M Bonutti
Mark V Brillhart
Physical Therapy . Volume 76 . Number 2 . February 1996

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/reprint/76/2/182.pdf

This article explains a technique, not a specific adaptation process. It’s unclear how authors can exclude that creeps were produced in CT; it seem this technique is directed to cause permanent elongation trough microfailures overriding the elstic reponse of CT and it’s resistance to abruptive elongation.

The first one who wrote about this kind of technique, by what I know, was hobby:

Stretchers and Stress Relaxation

Elasticity

Adversely by what somebody argued before in this thread, this is not similar to what hangers do; this was noted also by hobby:

Originally Posted by hobby
Hanging weights relies on creep to do the stretching and deforming. The times given above were for stress relaxation. Sort of apples and oranges - different approaches to accomplish the same thing.

An example of stress relaxation is using a stretcher that utilizes turnbuckles. If you attach and crank it out to a fixed length, the tissues will “relax” into that length and the tension will reduce. In other words, what feels like a good stretch at first won’t after the tissues relax. You’ll then be able to lengthen it some more to feel the same degree of stretch.

Check out this page advocating “static progressive stretching.” Here’s a post where I wondered how this technique would compare to our usual focus on creep. One of these days I’ll try it.

A quote from the page linked above (in case it moves again :) ):

Authors of the case-studies regarding stress-realaxation claims this technique is about 30 times more efficient than creep-based stretching. And, as authors explained in the same article, this technique is similar to manual stretching.

On stress-relaxation, see also the post #40


Last edited by marinera : 07-09-2008 at .
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