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Originally Posted by Dicko7X5
…………..
I’ve actually had very few shrinkages from PE. The ones I did have was back when I was new to PE.
………..

On a second reading, I noted that I missed to answer on this point.

Experts hangers (and extenders users) rarely have shrinkage because:

1) they are not using high loads;

2) the viscoelastic properties of TA are temprarily changed. To understand what it means, you can read what was posted before, but, to say it shortly, TA is loosing elasticity.

This could explain why, from time to time, hangers and ADSers can have temporary impotence or, more properly, a drop in their EQ: is well known that impotent males have often a lower concentration of elasic fiber in TA - see in example:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2542632

- so many urologists suspect that the loss of elasticity of TA plays an important role in many cases of ED.

Thanks Boss, I’ve done :) .

A little over a year ago I gave the principles of static stretching a try. I purchased the static stretcher and wore it averaging 16 hours a day with no results. I found that static stretching is a great idea in principle, and seems to work wonderfully in the realm or physical therapy; however, applying it to a penis is another story.

For instance, the device that was utilized on the woman’s knee, in the article you posted, has tremendous mechanical advantage and thus leverage over the joint. Whereas devices such as the static stretcher are limited in the amount of force they can apply to the penis because they pull straight out. There is no leverage. And, there is the attachment issue.

I believer that the reason the static stretcher was ineffective was because it wasn’t capable of applying sufficient tension to enter into the elastic region of the penis’s connective tissue.

I don’t know about you but when I perform manuals it takes several minutes before my soft tissues become stretched out and I can feel that they are no longer resisting against my pulls. I can then feel the elastic region of my CT. When I hit that point, it takes significant force in order for me to feel the ‘spring like’ resistance of the CT when pulling and I can’t hold that stretch for very long. Penis CT is tough and entering into the elastic region takes significant force without leverage.

There are only two devices that I know of that are capable of providing enough tension to the connective tissues in my penis to force it into the elastic and plastic region, and that is my hands or my Bib hanger.

Correct me if I’m wrong but, when the woman in the article adjusted the device attached to her knee just slightly farther than her normal range of motion, wasn’t she forcing the connective tissues of her knee just slightly into the elastic region and allowing the tissues to then relax into that position? The reason I made the comparison to both hanging with a Bib and performing manuals is because you can do something similar. When I do manuals I try to feel the elasticity of my CT and then hold that position for as long as I can. When I hang with my Bib I try to reach fatigue then back off the weight enough to simply hold that stretch for the remainder of my set. I think they are very similar.

If I wasn’t lowering the weight after reaching fatigue or just picking an arbitrary weight to hang I would be doing something similar to what Hobbie was referring to. However, the tension is reduced in both manuals and hanging in order to simply hold a position. Therefore, I believe that while it isn’t exact it’s similar to the application of the device in your article and static stretching. Can you think of a better way?


Then (4.5 nbpel x 4.75 mseg)

Now (5.625 nbpel, x 5.25 mseg)

Originally Posted by YGuy
When I first started PE, the PE site I joined had said in their instructions to relax as much as possible during manual stretches. The theory was, the more you relax, the further you’re going to be able to pull out. I’ve always applied relaxing during manual stretches and hanging.

With my current hanging setup, I’m not using weights as force. I attatch the hanger to my bed post, and lay flat on my back so I’m stretching straight up. I slide further down the bed for more resistance, and slide further up the bed for less resistance. Similiar to what MDC said about his stretching device, I end up about .5 further down the bed, from where I started. I start off hanging with my max stretched length, and try to relax my body and penis as much as possible(I make an effort to do this). After a few minutes, I’m able to slide further down the bed.


What do you think about this approach? This idea actually excites me. I actually think I may try this tonight. I found it in this link. Stretchers and Stress Relaxation


Then (4.5 nbpel x 4.75 mseg)

Now (5.625 nbpel, x 5.25 mseg)

Originally Posted by Dick Builder
A little over a year ago I gave the principles of static stretching a try. I purchased the static stretcher and wore it averaging 16 hours a day with no results. I found that static stretching is a great idea in principle, and seems to work wonderfully in the realm or physical therapy; however, applying it to a penis is another story.
…………………………….
If I wasn’t lowering the weight after reaching fatigue or just picking an arbitrary weight to hang I would be doing something similar to what Hobbie was referring to. However, the tension is reduced in both manuals and hanging in order to simply hold a position. Therefore, I believe that while it isn’t exact it’s similar to the application of the device in your article and static stretching. Can you think of a better way?

Thank you for your feedback, D B.

The first thing I want to note, is that authors of those articles (both mine and the one linked by Hobby) where using the stretching on a contracted joint, not an healthy one; we can reasonably think that the principles used can be transferred to lengthen an healthy body-part, but it’s not certain, rigorously speaking.

So said, I think the main difference between the hangers approach and static stretchers approach (if properly used) is: the hangers apply a load to the tissue, attempting to allow the tissue to adapt to this load with an elongation.
Static stretchers allow the tissue to stay at a given length, so the tissue adapt to that length. I know it could appear a nominalistic difference, because in both approach is applied a tension. But, in the first case, load is the goal, in the second case load is just a means.

I’ll try to say it in a more clear way:

if the load is applied, the tissue elongate to relief the stress; but, if you are hanging, the elongation will not relief the stress- the weight is still stressing. If you are stretching at a given length, using a weight or any other tension-mechanism, once the tissue is elongated, the stress is diminished. So, I think that, theoretically, stretchers could lead to a better adaptation. In the case of hanging, the body could react thickening the tissue, because is “confused” - like it was saying : “Ehi, I have elongated the tissue but the stress is still there: so I have to make it stronger, this way the stress will be less harmful” - if it’s clear what I mean.

Another point is: many hangers (devices) have to be “un-weared” after 15-20 minutes. If you want to reach the creep deformation, this time is too short.
On the other hand, as you noted, and as I’ve said many times here, the penis is hard to deform (reaching microfailures) applying an high load, because the CT react in a elastic way, toughening and shortening, and this abrupt high load can lead also to scar tissue production : attempting to obtain a creep-deformation seems a better approach.

Manual stretching, with a progressive, smooth tension, repeating 3-5 sets of 15-60 seconds, is a good way. It’s really fatiguing for your whole body, I well agree.

If you want to use the Bib hanger, I suppose a way to apply the static progressive stretching could be starting the hanging “set” standing on a stairway or such, and going a bit higher every 5 minutes; just to give an idea. Another way would be using a Bowflex machine.

You could imagine other ways, let me know.


Last edited by marinera : 07-09-2008 at .

Originally Posted by Dick Builder
What do you think about this approach? This idea actually excites me. I actually think I may try this tonight. I found it in this link. Stretchers and Stress Relaxation

Yes ,it is a good example of the same principles we are speaking right now -Static Progressive Stretching. Yguy had incredible gains, maybe this approach was one o the reasons of his success.

Good found :up: .

Its interesting that YGuy also used supplements that help with joint pain (glucosamine and chondrotin). Maybe once he stretched to a certain point, using Glucosamine and chondrotin helped “cement” or keep his ligs at the length they were stretched at instead of making them “tougher” like some people think.

Just a thought.

I fully understand the difference between static and dynamic tension and agree with your synopsis. However, in order to make my point, would you agree that when the woman in the article forced her knee slightly beyond its normal range of motion, for that five minute interval, do you think that the tissues relaxed entirely? Or, do you believe as I do that there was still some residual tension on the CT when she released the device? The reason I bring up this point is because I believe that when weight is reduced after achieving fatigue, when hanging, the tissues can relax a bit because the force was reduced, resulting in an equilibrium of sorts. In other words, there is no longer sufficient force to overcome the tissues elasticity, creating plastic deformation. The reduction in weight returns the tissues back into or below the elastic range. Granted, the force is not removed entirely. However, I don’t believe it is in the subject’s knee either. But, you are correct, it isn’t exactly static in nature.

Originally Posted by marinera

In the case of hanging, the body could react thickening the tissue, because is “confused” - like it was saying : “Ehi, I have elongated the tissue but the stress is still there: so I have to make it stronger, this way the stress will be less harmful” - if it’s clear what I mean.

I’m not exactly clear on this. Creep based approaches involve constant tension.

Originally Posted by marinera

Another point is: many hangers (devices) have to be “un-weared” after 15-20 minutes. If you want to reach the creep deformation, this time is too short.

I agree. However, this patient utilized the stress relaxation technique in five minute intervals in a thirty minute set, which is very similar to manual stretching and hanging. Besides, most articles that I have read that utilize the creep deformation you are talking about are dynamic in nature, utilizing a low load over a span of eight to twelve hours.

Originally Posted by marinera

On the other hand, as you noted, and as I’ve said many times here, the penis is hard to deform (reaching microfailures) applying an high load, because the CT react in a elastic way, toughening and shortening, and this abrupt high load can lead also to scar tissue production : attempting to obtain a creep-deformation seems a better approach.

Forgive me but, I’m not exactly following your reasoning here. Are you referring to static-stretching as bad? Are you saying that hanging involves an abrupt high load, or just a high load? I’m confused. Earlier you had stated that static stretching is 30% better than a creep based approach.

Originally Posted by marinera

Authors of the case-studies regarding stress-realaxation claims this technique is about 30 times more efficient than creep-based stretching. And, as authors explained in the same article, this technique is similar to manual stretching.


Then (4.5 nbpel x 4.75 mseg)

Now (5.625 nbpel, x 5.25 mseg)

Hey guys I haven’t been on here in quite awhile due to we are moving and have had my my other little one come down from up north for her summer vacation with us.

This brings me to whats been going on with my PE stuff and that is nothing for the last 2.5 weeks. I have had no loss in size so that is good but I will not be able to PE for the next 2 to 3 weeks so this is a prime time to put the rest or no rest part of the debate to the test at least for me, as I am against it, but in all fairness and due to things out of my control I will do no PE at all for at least 5 weeks.

1. Is 5 weeks enough of a brake from PE.

2. I will only do static stretching with the static stretcher light and heavy but will use no weight from springs. This light style of stretching is what you are talking about Marinera I think but not really sure. If you could let me know if this is what you are talking about then we will be on the same page for my work out. All other PE stuff will be sent to the new house in IL in storage so no chance for me to stray of the path. I will do this for 3 months straight.

3. Marinera if jelqing is on your regimen I will be able to do it 3 times per week when I start back at PE if this is what you recommend then I will incorporate this in to my PE as well. Ow many jelqs would you say is a good number and at what erection level do you think is best and what speed do you suggest.

If I have left anything out on this type of PE let me know and I will included it into my work out when I start back in 3 weeks. If I gain then I will be the first to say you were right and I was wrong.

Either way I will let everyone know what is going on once I start back at it.


Current stats march 2008= Nbel 6.75 Bpel 7.5 Eg 5.5

Goal by the end of next year Nbel 8.5 Eg 6.5

You raise good points, Dick Builder, I’ll try to answer as I can:

Originally Posted by Dick Builder
I fully understand the difference between static and dynamic tension and agree with your synopsis. However, in order to make my point, would you agree that when the woman in the article forced her knee slightly beyond its normal range of motion, for that five minute interval, do you think that the tissues relaxed entirely? Or, do you believe as I do that there was still some residual tension on the CT when she released the device? The reason I bring up this point is because I believe that when weight is reduced after achieving fatigue, when hanging, the tissues can relax a bit because the force was reduced, resulting in an equilibrium of sorts. In other words, there is no longer sufficient force to overcome the tissues elasticity, creating plastic deformation. The reduction in weight returns the tissues back into or below the elastic range. Granted, the force is not removed entirely. However, I don’t believe it is in the subject’s knee either. But, you are correct, it isn’t exactly static in nature.

I can’t know if, in the experiment we are speaking of, the CT was completely relaxed after 5 minutes; however, the goal of that kind of device was to reach the max relaxed state before stretching a bit more the tissue. According to principles we have seen explained in the studies I posted, the lower the load, and the slower the rate when applying that load, the faster visco-elastic adaptation; so, the CT elongate and the tension on it is reduced.
After a while, the tissue should be mantained at that length with a reduced tension (weight if you are hanging).
But it’s difficulty to reproduce this process with weigths.

The classic “step by step” procedure that hangers advocates is pretty different, to my eyes:
a) they start with, (just to say) 10 lbs, doing (again just to say) 4 sets. When “fatigue” is felt, the weight is reduced. What is this “fatigue”? Only hangers are speaking of that ( if you agree, we will deserve a specific anlasys of fatigue in the coming posts).

b) at this point the weight is reduced because, if don’t, you are not able to hang anymore.

This seems a way to reach microfailures, not viscoelastic deformation, doing cyclical loading with medium weights. It doesn’t seem the best way to reach visco-elastic adaptation.The load is fighting against, both, the elastic (shortening) reaction of CT and the inner strength of fibers (I hope it’s clear).

Hangers could do a better imitation of Static Progressive Stretching process, as I see things, starting with a really low load and sligthly augmenting this load after a given amount of time: if the elastic resistance that CT is opposing is reduced, the tissue can be elongated, safely (avoiding tears and scars), a bit more - and the load applied can be augmented safely as well. So, one is “walking” safely from the viscoelastic (temporary) adaptation to the microfailures region (permanent deformation).

I know it seems to counter-addict the “phylosophy” of SSP, but I don’t think the authors of that case-report are really explaining what happened in the tissue of patient, maybe they aren’t also understanding it; let’s re-read this (#40):


“Taylor et al.4 experimented with rabbit muscle/tendons and felt that the main response to stretch could be explained by viscoelastic properties alone, exclusive of reflex effects. They found that denervated muscles responded similarly to the innervated muscles in flexibility testing. Interestingly, they found that most of the stress relaxation took place within 12 to 18 seconds of stretch and there was insignificant relaxation afterwards. They also found that in static stretching, 80 percent of the stretch occurred after the first four stretches and stretching afterwards improved elongation very little. Of course we are dealing with rabbit tendons — are there any human volunteers in the audience?”

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/11/04/27.html

I think the authors of the case-study on SSP are excluding creep-elongation withou any reason; the SSP could just be a way to produce creep-elongation (visco-elastic adaptation) in short-term applying low-loads at slow rate, touching microtears-based elongation in the last 5 minutes. The goal of that authors, on the other hand, was not to explain deeply CT adaptation: they wanted to give empirical-scientific basis for an orthopedic device - it’s a mix of advertising and scientific experiment, if you get what I mean.

Originally Posted by Dick Builder
…………
However, this patient utilized the stress relaxation technique in five minute intervals in a thirty minute set, which is very similar to manual stretching and hanging. Besides, most articles that I have read that utilize the creep deformation you are talking about are dynamic in nature, utilizing a low load over a span of eight to twelve hours.
……………….

A constant, low-load, applied in a continous way for many hour is the best way to reach creep deformation without micro-failures. We want this deformation because we want that most of the load wil be able to cause microfailures in the smarter way: the minimal amount of time and effort, the minimal scar-production, the minimal shortening reaction of collagenous tissue. So, I wrote of the 2-phase PE approach.

But, if one is in a hurry for gains, given that a low-load/slow-rate is the basic principle for best viscoelastic deformation, SSP is kind a “micro-version” of that 2-phase PE approach: in 25 minutes (but I think for TA the time should be slightly longer) you have most of the viscoelastic elongation, in the last 5 minutes you have a small amount of microfailures. Heating and cooling can enhance this approach. That’s it :) .

Hello diesel, I hope things are going well for you.

Originally Posted by diesel220

1. Is 5 weeks enough of a brake from PE.
……..

It depends on how much high-tension work have you done.

Originally Posted by diesel220

……………………
2. I will only do static stretching with the static stretcher light and heavy but will use no weight from springs. This light style of stretching is what you are talking about Marinera I think but not really sure. If you could let me know if this is what you are talking about then we will be on the same page for my work out.

Try this:

a) wear the stretcher extending to a bit less than your NBPEL;
b)stay there for 3 minutes;
c) extend another 1/8”;
d) stay there for 3 minutes;
e) extend another 1/8”;
f) stay there for 5 minutes;
g) add another 1/8” extension;
h) stay there for 10 minutes;
i) if you can, repeat steps g) - h), staying 15 minutes.

Do this work 1 times/day the first day, 2 times/day the 2d day, 3 times/day the 3d day. After that, take a day off and repeat the cycle from the day 1.
Take a week-off after 4-5 weeks or if you feel fatigued.
On the 2d month, you could add 5-10 minutes of manual fulcrum stretching (V-stretch, memento’ stretch et similar) after the stretcher-work (but check your feelings, don’t overdo). firegoat explained very well the best way to do manual stretches, but I can’t remember the thread : I’ll link here when I’ll find.

Let us know how it goes.

Originally Posted by diesel220

……………
3. Marinera if jelqing is on your regimen I will be able to do it 3 times per week when I start back at PE if this is what you recommend then I will incorporate this in to my PE as well. Ow many jelqs would you say is a good number and at what erection level do you think is best and what speed do you suggest.
………….

If there is any “holy-grail” of PE, it’s jelquing in my opinion. I think even jelquing 10 minutes, 1 day per week, can give a synergistic effect with any kind of PE technique one is using. About number and frequency, there aren’t any fixed numbers: you have to go with your feeling. If you don’t have time to do wet-jelqs, do dry-jelq for 5-10 minutes - be cautious, dry-jelqs are harder on your unit then wet.

Do jelqs after the stretcher-work.
About the erection level when jelquing, I think most vets recommend anywhere in the 50%-80% range.

Originally Posted by ShyMplsMale
Its interesting that YGuy also used supplements that help with joint pain (glucosamine and chondrotin). Maybe once he stretched to a certain point, using Glucosamine and chondrotin helped “cement” or keep his ligs at the length they were stretched at instead of making them “tougher” like some people think.

Just a thought.


I found that interesting too. Last summer I had the time to hang daily and put on a half inch in a three month span. I was also taking triple strength Osteo bi-flex due to a torn meniscus during that time period. I thought at the time that taking that supplement was counterproductive to my PE because I was trying to weaken my CT not strengthen it. Maybe Yguy was on to something. I may start taking it again. .


Then (4.5 nbpel x 4.75 mseg)

Now (5.625 nbpel, x 5.25 mseg)

Originally Posted by marinera
I can’t know if, in the experiment we are speaking of, the CT was completely relaxed after 5 minutes; however, the goal of that kind of device was to reach the max relaxed state before stretching a bit more the tissue. According to principles we have seen explained in the studies I posted, the lower the load, and the slower the rate when applying that load, the faster visco-elastic adaptation; so, the CT elongate and the tension on it is reduced.
After a while, the tissue should be mantained at that length with a reduced tension (weight if you are hanging).
But it’s difficulty to reproduce this process with weigths.


I know that after wearing the static stretcher and slowly working it out to my measured erect length. (Which is were the device was meant to be adjusted to. I don’t believe it was capable of stretching to my bpfsl.) There was still some slight tension on the tissues. There had to be in order to maintain that position.

Originally Posted by marinera
The classic “step by step” procedure that hangers advocates is pretty different, to my eyes:
a) they start with, (just to say) 10 lbs, doing (again just to say) 4 sets. When “fatigue” is felt, the weight is reduced. What is this “fatigue”? Only hangers are speaking of that ( if you agree, we will deserve a specific anlasys of fatigue in the coming posts).

b) at this point the weight is reduced because, if don’t, you are not able to hang anymore.


I think you have the general idea. However, I don’t think many hangers start out at their max weight - I don’t. I just returned from about a two month break and my max weight is now 10 pounds. I started my first set this morning with a 5 pound weight, 50 % of max, and slowly add weight as my tissues adapt. Once fatigue is reached I begin lowering the weight till I’m comfortable – maintaining the stretch. I try to reach fatigue on every set. So, I am adding and removing weight during each set based on comfort level.

What is fatigue? I imagine I’ve slowly removed the elasticity of the tissues and have just touched (very lightly) into the plastic region. That’s when I reduce the weight in order to maintain that stretch, or position, for the duration of my set.

I’ve felt the same sensation when performing manuals in conjunction with my hanging routine. However, the sensation comes on much faster and is more intense. It also requires me to lower the intensity for the duration of the stretch.

What do you think it is?

Originally Posted by marinera
This seems a way to reach microfailures, not viscoelastic deformation, doing cyclical loading with medium weights. It doesn’t seem the best way to reach visco-elastic adaptation.The load is fighting against, both, the elastic (shortening) reaction of CT and the inner strength of fibers (I hope it’s clear).

Hangers could do a better imitation of Static Progressive Stretching process, as I see things, starting with a really low load and sligthly augmenting this load after a given amount of time: if the elastic resistance that CT is opposing is reduced, the tissue can be elongated, safely (avoiding tears and scars), a bit more - and the load applied can be augmented safely as well. So, one is “walking” safely from the viscoelastic (temporary) adaptation to the microfailures region (permanent deformation).


I think what you are saying here is pretty close to the way I hang, which is how I’ve interpreted Bib’s approach.

Just to change the subject a bit:
I get the impression that you feel as though hanging is a more intense routine than manuals. Myself, I believe that manuals are a much more high intensity-low duration technique as compared to hanging. When I’m performing manuals I believe I am putting much, much more tension on my unit than with hanging and for a much shorter duration. A manual stretch goes from zero intensity to max within a minute, with hanging the tension ramps up much, much slower and ends with a much lower intensity than a manual stretch. What do you think?


Then (4.5 nbpel x 4.75 mseg)

Now (5.625 nbpel, x 5.25 mseg)

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