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Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

Originally Posted by pudendum

Unlike ttt, I don’t believe that the tissues outside the tunica have any affect on pressure transmission, until they fill with edema fluid (that is they become edematous; like the Michelin Man).

Reconsidering, I think that you are right. Fluids are incompressible and inextensible, which - physically speaking is the same. Edema formation actually decreases the pressure in the sealed tube due to the volume expansion, but as long as you keep the pressure constant you will maintain the pressure gradient, even in the presence of edema formation. Saying that, I must also say, that Mr.Happy was right. Hear me, Mr.Happy?

That, however, would upgrade pumping a lot in my opinion, since the pressure gradients can be quite high. Intuitively, I still favor clamping. May be because my gf complains about the fluffiness of my dick after heavier pumping. This (edema, doughnut etc.) never occurred with clamping.

It is very satisfying to state at this point that we (I at least) are gaining a higher level of understanding the physics and the biology that stands behind pe and allows us to make our dicks bigger. In that sense I am not unhappy to err from time to time. Rather, every error proves that it’s not a waste of time to hang out at ThunderSS’s and discuss these issues.

Thank you all for discussing and..

.. Happy new Year


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by pudendum
If instead the balloon was in a flexible plastic tube closed at one end with a nylon mesh core holding it taut, the consequences would be difference. It is not a simple system. You now have a low compliance situation, much like the tunica. Let say we can inflate this balloon to 250 mmHg to simulate cavernosa pressures within the taut tunica. As I posted before, the amount of pressure transmitted across fluid filled tissues depends directly on the amount of distensibility or compliance of the tissues it is made of. Now lets generate a negative pressure outside this. I picked peak erection with a very tight tunica for a reason. The amount of negative pressure actually transmitted across the tube to the fluid within the balloon will be restricted by the very low compliant nature of the restricting cover

Wrong.

The pressure transmission is not restricted by the compliance C, whether it is low or high. What is restricted is the expansive effect (volume change, dV) of that pressure gradient (dP). Remember the formula

C = dV / dP. If C is low, for a given dP, there is only a small dV. But this small dV (volume increase inside the tunica will increase the wall stress in the tunica. And that is the stimulus for growth.

Amen.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by pudendum
.. However, even with intense kegels, it is hard to imagine that you can distend the tunica appreciably with enough indirect pressure ..

Pudendum: there is no such thing as indirect pressure.

Only pressure gradients are physically speaking relevant.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
Saying that, I must also say, that Mr.Happy was right. Hear me, Mr.Happy?


Every once in a while it happens.

However, in fairness, my position on that particular topic was not my own. It was just one that I’ve read here before that made the most sense to me. :)

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
Intuitively, I still favor clamping. May be because my gf complains about the fluffiness of my dick after heavier pumping.


The women I’ve been with have not noticed any “fluffiness” if we’ve gotten busy soon after a pump session. Nor have I - unless I’ve overdone it - or come close to overdoing it. Then there is a sense of it being a little spongey, which I assume is a low-level donut effect. I really try to avoid this, though, and pump at levels low enough to get expansion, but not so high as to have this effect.

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
It is very satisfying to state at this point that we (I at least) are gaining a higher level of understanding the physics and the biology that stands behind pe and allows us to make our dicks bigger. In that sense I am not unhappy to err from time to time. Rather, every error proves that it’s not a waste of time to hang out at ThunderSS’s and discuss these issues.


A very good point. And one that I must (as we all must) keep in mind when debating points we disagree with.

Well said.

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
Thank you all for discussing and..

.. Happy new Year


You too, sir.


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
Pudendum: there is no such thing as indirect pressure.

Only pressure gradients are physically speaking relevant.


Agree. My statement is imprecise.

What I am trying to say is that unlike the usual distending pressure of the cavernosa and methods that directly increase that pressure, pumping’s negative pressure is an influence that ‘indirectly” effects the tunica by means other than by increasing cavernosa pressure.

That’s all.

Originally Posted by pudendum
Agree. My statement is imprecise.

What I am trying to say is that unlike the usual distending pressure of the cavernosa and methods that directly increase that pressure, pumping’s negative pressure is an influence that ‘indirectly” effects the tunica by means other than by increasing cavernosa pressure.

That’s all.

The tunica doesn’t know or experience the difference between direct or indirect pressure. Only, according to it’s compliance, it translates a pressure gradient in a volume change which increases the wall stress in the tunica.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
Wrong.

The pressure transmission is not restricted by the compliance C, whether it is low or high. What is restricted is the expansive effect (volume change, dV) of that pressure gradient (dP). Remember the formula

C = dV / dP. If C is low, for a given dP, there is only a small dV. But this small dV (volume increase inside the tunica will increase the wall stress in the tunica. And that is the stimulus for growth.

Amen.


Agree, I was not correct in my explanation. To err is human, to grow a bigger penis is, priceless.

My goal was to compare negative pressure effects to other positive pressure methods. The point of all of the girth methods is to distend the tunica to get the tension-induced remodeling. It all is a matter of degree.

Yes, compliance is a refection of a change in volume in a vessel (say the cavernossa) with respect to a given change in pressure. It is also just as true that if since the compliance of the tunica is the same in all the PE methods used, the shift of blood within the cavernosa (by clamps, squeezes, jelqs) causes a far greater change in pressure. Why?

If C = Change in volume (dV)/change in pressure (dV), then if compliance is the same:

dV1/dP1 = dV2/dP2.

You ask, what the hell is he talking about? Well it’s actually quite simple. PE methods that move blood into the penis will change volume. For a given compliance the amount of blood volume increase will yield a given change in pressure (the more volume, the more pressure), which in our case is the pressure tension we are looking for to stimulate tunica expansion.

However for pumping, the changing factor (the dependent variable; that’s for you ttt) is pressure (unlike volume for clamping). In a very low compliance situation, the ability to dissipate a pressure gradient is very low (think of trying to affect a pressure change across a brick wall; unlike the ease of alleviating the change across the wall of a balloon).

The change in pressure (dP or delta P or whatever you want to call it) in the complaince equation is NOT the change in pressure across the tunica (negative pressure outside with the pump and 200 - 300 mmHg inside). It is the change of pressure INSIDE the cavernosa. As I said, like with the brick wall example and not like the wall of a balloon, a stiff tunica will not allow a significant pressure change within the cavernosa; this means the pressure gradient is maintained (across the tunica, unlike with the balloon). So the change in pressure in the cavernosa will be small and the resulting change in volume for that pressure change will be small as well.

There is another factor involved here as well. Where is this small change in volume going to come from? If cavernosa pressure is already above arterial pressure, it won’t come from outside the penis. It will, in fact, come from the movement of a small volume of blood from that portion of the penis not within the pump, that is, from the base of the penis to the root of the penis at the pelvis. (In clamping, the pressure changes will affect all the penis, root to glans). So in reality you are adding little volume to the system so that the effect on tunica deformation will be very small in comparison to direct pressure methods.

So in my mind, excluding all the side effects of either clamping or pumping, in my mind you get far more bang for the buck with clamping over pumping.

I hope this is a little clearer.

Originally Posted by pudendum
So in my mind, excluding all the side effects of either clamping or pumping, in my mind you get far more bang for the buck with clamping over pumping.

I hope this is a little clearer.


This has been clear since you began posting.

And it may well be true for you, and others. I still remain unconvinced that a flat, across the board statement can be made with confidence.

Originally Posted by pudendum
As I said, like with the brick wall example and not like the wall of a balloon, a stiff tunica will not allow a significant pressure change within the cavernosa; this means the pressure gradient is maintained (across the tunica, unlike with the balloon). So the change in pressure in the cavernosa will be small and the resulting change in volume for that pressure change will be small as well.


Ok, I’ll bite.

If we grant a “stiff tunica” will not allow significant pressure change within the cavernosa why would clamping then be more effective? Especially when we consider that by having a hard-on the in-flow of blood has been stopped?

It seems like a stiff tunica is going to be resistant no matter how the pressure is applied.

I’m also curious as to what you think the ideal clamping zone is. Mostly 80% erection is suggested - does this square with pumping at lower pressure?


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
Wrong.

The pressure transmission is not restricted by the compliance C, whether it is low or high. What is restricted is the expansive effect (volume change, dV) of that pressure gradient (dP). Remember the formula

C = dV / dP. If C is low, for a given dP, there is only a small dV. But this small dV (volume increase inside the tunica will increase the wall stress in the tunica. And that is the stimulus for growth.

Amen.

If this is correct (and I assume it is) then this explains how pumping CAN work. If this wasn’t true, then I would be at a loss to explain what we know to be correct…that pumping DOES work when properly applied. That “properly applied” being the key word.

Originally Posted by pudendum

The change in pressure (dP or delta P or whatever you want to call it) in the complaince equation is NOT the change in pressure across the tunica (negative pressure outside with the pump and 200 - 300 mmHg inside). It is the change of pressure INSIDE the cavernosa. As I said, like with the brick wall example and not like the wall of a balloon, a stiff tunica will not allow a significant pressure change within the cavernosa; this means the pressure gradient is maintained (across the tunica, unlike with the balloon). So the change in pressure in the cavernosa will be small and the resulting change in volume for that pressure change will be small as well.

OK, first of all, this is a really great discussion Pud and TTT…this is some of the finest I’ve seen yet here at Thunders, thank you both.

Second, you are both WAY over my head with these equations, but this is the question I have.

It seems to me that the absolute pressure inside the tunica isn’t the real issue, its the expansive STRESS effecting the tunica that is what we are shooting for. Yes, I understand the concept of low compliance, but even a brick wall at some point will break.

The tunica may not expand much at the point you are discussing Pud, but I believe it can be “stressed” enough to cause productive physiologic changes, or how else can any gains from pumping be reported? Gains DO occur, so there is obviously some mechanism involved. Personally, I believe the stress produced from the pressure differential is stressing the tunica in a way that is causing expansion.

Now, it may be a secondary effect of cellular grow as opposed to actually stretching the tunica, but I can only guess at this. Maybe only fractions of a millimeter of expansion, when held for certain periods of time result in cellular stimulation causing growth. Pumpers have reported for years that modest vacuum levels work far better than high levels, so maybe its not classic plastic deformation, rather cellular stimulation that drives gains.

TTT, as far as sponginess from pumping, it can be totally avoided with lower vacuum levels. The question then becomes can vacuum levels low enough to prevent edema, be high enough to produce tunica expansion…for you. I really wonder if everyone does, I personally think its a very small window for most, and I suspect for some, it doesn’t exist.

You are all making excellent points here ant pudendum is correct in stating that the volume and pressure changes inside are the variables related to compliance.

Anyhow, I have been rethinking the problem and as I said before, I intuitively believe that clamping is superior to pumping (I am practicing both, btw.).

I think that I now found one major and relevant difference between clamping and pumping:

If you pump, the cavernous chambers are “open” towards the base of the penis. Pumpers therefore can experience going in the pump rock hard and out of the pump with a semi.

If you clamp, you are creating a closed compartment, and only therein the compliance equations really hold. Once you but a tight clamp at the base, the volume of blood is fixed. Adding another clamp theoretically leaves the volume of blood unchanged but the space within tunica is smaller because of the second clamp’s compression effect. As a consequence, the pressure will rise and - Sparky - increase the wall stress in the tunica much more then with any other method. A further pressure increase can be obtained by even more clamps, or they can be used to avoid pressure drop due to leakage of blood outside of the “closed” compartment.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by sparkyx
That “properly applied” being the key word.

I think with either practice that has to be taken into account. Otherwise what are we talking about?


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Originally Posted by sparkyx

It seems to me that the absolute pressure inside the tunica isn’t the real issue, it’s the expansive STRESS effecting the tunica that is what we are shooting for.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by sparkyx
TTT, as far as sponginess from pumping, it can be totally avoided with lower vacuum levels. The question then becomes can vacuum levels low enough to prevent edema, be high enough to produce tunica expansion.for you. I really wonder if everyone does, I personally think it’s a very small window for most, and I suspect for some, it doesn’t exist.

That’s exactly the problem. I’ve tried pumping with a very tight tube and get very impressive length expansion, and with a thicker tube with very nice girth expansion.

With girth it’s hard to tell precisely what happens because of edema but as for length I would say that pretty high pressures are required. I went up to 20 inch Hg (only once; - NOT RECOMMENDED) for experimental reasons and due to the fascination to see my dick grow from 18,5 at that time to 20 cm. I had severe swelling and lasting, may be permanent discoloration from that single “experiment”.

At 10 inch Hg (still more than recommended by experienced pumpers) I am getting much less expansion, at 6 I would have to try (needs a lot of patience to see a significant effect, I suppose).

Anyhow, length is the way to check girth effects as well, since - as pointed out by pudendum: girth is circumferential length (I love that one :) .


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
I’m also curious as to what you think the ideal clamping zone is. Mostly 80% erection is suggested - does this square with pumping at lower pressure?

I am clamping at 102 % and use three clamps to obtain maximal pressure and tunica wall stress.


Later - ttt

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