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Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

I’ve come to this thread late, but I guess better late than never.

First I have no irons in the fire on this issue as I neither pump or clamp. I personally have achieved great gains with jelqs, squeezes and slinkies. I have no bias one versus the other and respect any guy who uses any of the possible options to obtain enhancement, in this case girth.

That being said, I have to jump on board with ttt on this issue regarding a couple of points he made.

Compliance (minus the equation, which make most guys eye’s glaze and have them say no not another scientific explanation) is simply the ease of distensibility of a tissue to a given pressure. A tissue, like let say the tunica, does not have the same compliance throughout its stretch to its maximum. This means as the tunica approaches its maximum distention its ability to stretch further decrease to a very low level, that is its compliance is very low.

So what’s this got to do with clamping or pumping, you ask? A lot. I know that when I now reach full erection, my penis is hard as a rock. The tunica is at maximum distention (at least for now). The cavernosa are maximally filled with blood. The Ischiocavernosus muscles are contracting. The cavernosa pressure is 200 - 300 mmHg. No additional blood can enter the cavernosa because the pressure inside exceeds arterial pressure.

So how do you increase the tension on the tunica to achieve stress induces circumferential expansion?

I have problems understanding how a negative pressure will cause further distension of the tunica, the target of your endeavor. At maximum erection with a very rock hard tunica, pumping at pressures not exceeding medically recommended levels (200 - 250 mmHg, 270 - 340 cmH2O, 7.9 - 9.8 inHg) would have minimal effect. You will not be able to elevate the tunica to increase blood volume in the cavernosa as the pressure will still be above arterial pressure (unless you’ve got untreated very high blood pressure). I see pumping only effect at this degree of erections to be on the tissue under the skin and over the tunica (subcutaneous tissue) filled with very loose connective tissue.

Now I am not saying that pumping doesn’t have effect at lower levels of erection (as we know that jelqing does). And this maybe where potential gains may occur. I just have problems visualizing an almost non-compliant tunica being affect by negative pressure at maximum erection. I believe you’d have as much success pumping a glass penis dildo. If I’m misinformed, please let me know.

As for clamping, when placing a clamp on the penis base at max erection, you are also not adding new blood to the cavernosa (though you are moving blood away from the clamp site, probably both directions; toward and away from the head). The effect is an increase in cavernosa pressure to God only knows how high. With a low compliant tunica, the effect on pressure would be like trying to put more fluid in a copper pipe. The pressure sky-rockets. This definitely puts a significant tension on the tunica which will probably cause tension-induced fibroblast stimulation for collagen remodeling; hopefully at a greater girth.

This is a direct effect internally vs. an indirect effect with negative pressure externally. At this very specific point in an erection, I would believe that clamping has an advantage over pumping. Again, this does not mean that at lower levels of erection, the situation may be different.

Just my opinion.

Now I’d like to address a pet peeve. The use of the word lymph to describe the swelling in the penis after any PE maneuver (particularly pumping) is incorrect. It’s like saying the the Yankees beat the Red Sox in the bottom of the ninth by scoring two points. Both grate like the sound of fingernails on a chalk board.

The body has three spaces where fluid can go, the cells, inside the blood vessels and a third place outside the cells and the blood vessels known as the extracellular space. The amount of fluid in this space (known as extracellular fluid, or ECF for short) is very tightly regulated. By the way ECF represents a very significant portion of the fluid in your body.

The main function of the lymphatic system is to drain excess ECF (though there are other functions of the lymphatic system). Fluid in this 3rd space (as it is commonly called) is known as ECF, when it enters the lymphatics system and is drained to lymph nodes, it is called lymph fluid.

In general, the factors that tend to keep fluid in the blood and not flooding into the extracellular space is described by Starlings Law of Filtration which ttt alluded to. I described this in a post on a thread about excess fluid in the penis but the thread has been removed (I checked my postings). So let me briefly explain.

Fluid moves by pressure, from high pressure to low pressure, like water in a pipe. Water (which is the main component of the fluid we are talking about) moves easily through the vessel wall in the blood capillaries. The pressure in the blood capillaries is between 40 - 60 mmHg and the pressure in the extracellular space can normally be between -3 to 5 mmHg. If pressure was the only factor affecting how much fluid stayed in the blood vessels, then the 3rd space would be flooded ECF. It is not the only factor.

There are large proteins in the blood besides the blood cells which cannot diffuse through the blood vessel wall at the capillaries. Everybody has probably heard of osmosis. For those that haven’t or don’t know what it means, it is the diffusion of water from areas of high concentration (meaning water) to low concentration. Since there are large proteins in the blood but very few proteins in the ECF, the concentration of water in the ECF is higher, so diffusion is from ECF to the blood. This counteracts the pressure effect describe above.

This system is not perfect. There is a net loss of fluid to the ECF, though it is small. If it is not reabsorbed by capillaries, it moves around the 3rd space to equalize the pressure. The increased overall pressure in the 3rd space causes the flied to move towards lymph channels where it is taken away by lymph vessels to nodes.

Anything that alter this balance between pressures and protein concentrations can effect the amount of ECF, very rapidly. Negative pressure within the extracellular space, which can be expected with pumping at high levels of erection as the cavernosa reaches maximal volume, will cause an increase pressure difference which will counteract the blood proteins ability to hold fluid in the vessels and ECF volume will increase.

The same can be true for clamping. When the clamp is placed, pressure within the arteries and veins increase. This will also affect the pressure difference between the capillaries and the 3rd space. This will increase ECF volume until the pressure in the extracellular space rises to a level when the blood proteins can maintain the fluid in the blood. So during clamping, ECF volume will increase but not to the volume as in pumping.

So why am I peeved. The excess fluid in the extracellular space is called edema, not lymph. The vast majority of the effect of negative pressure on fluid build up is at the capillaries, not from drawing appreciable quantities of lymph fluid back into the penis.

You ask how fast can this fluid move out of the capillaries to fill the 3rd space. Well, a good example is a young well conditioned scuba diver whose tank runs out of air and he tries to take a breath against an empty tank. The negative pressure he generates to take this breath is enough to immediately (within seconds) fill his lung with fluid. This is called flash pulmonary edema. The negative pressure throws the factors out of balance instantaneously.

Sure the penis is not the lungs, but the principle is the same. The amount of pressure required to pull significant amounts of lymph fluid into the penis would probably turn the penis inside out. Besides, the amount of pressure within the extracellular space from the increased ECF that the negative pressure would produce would not allow fluid to enter the penis from the lymph vessels. The lymph channels would have a lower pressure and excess ECF, in fact, would be pushing its way into the lymph vessels and not out.

Guys, the excess fluid in your penis is edema fluid and not lymph fluid.

I hope I’ve explained this clearly.

Originally Posted by pudendum
I hope I’ve explained this clearly.


Yes. Yes indeed.

You seem to making a similar point that ticker is making.

Thanks for clearing up the difference between lymph and edema; a very good correction.

I’m just a little unclear about this bit:

Quote
Now I am not saying that pumping doesn’t have effect at lower levels of erection (as we know that jelqing does). And this maybe where potential gains may occur. I just have problems visualizing an almost non-compliant tunica being affect by negative pressure at maximum erection. I believe you’d have as much success pumping a glass penis dildo. If I’m misinformed, please let me know.

It seems if that were true, then it would be near impossible to gain any girth from pumping, but that does not appear to be true. At least not in my experience.

Are you saying that girth gains are more likely from pumping at a lower hg pressure?


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

The answer to that is correct. In addition, the increased pressure in the tunica stops blood flow to it. It therefore exists in low oxygen environment. This is why the 4 hour limit to full erection, after which it is called priapism. After this period, the fibroblasts in the tunica begin to die and the released enzymes which cause collagen fibers to breakdown.

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
Are you saying that girth gains are more likely from pumping at a lower hg pressure?


No I think the gains are probable at lower levels of erection while the tunica is more compliant, not lower vacuum pressures. That would be my thought.

I do not dispute that gains occur with pumping. There is too much evidence on this forum and elsewhere that it works.

Originally Posted by pudendum
The answer to that is correct.

There is only the blood in the penis that it started with?


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Yes, specifically for the cavernosa. Venous outflow is restricted and cavernosa pressure is higher than arterial pressure, so no new blood will enter it. The spongiosum has some blood turn over because it tends to shunt blood directly from the arteries to veins particularly in the head until peak erection when it acts more like the cavernosa and out flow stops.

Thanks for the physiology lessons. :)

Originally Posted by pudendum
No I think the gains are probable at lower levels of erection while the tunica is more compliant, not lower vacuum pressures. That would be my thought.


So lower erection, but higher hg, eh?

Interesting, as recently I have begun experimenting with pumping from a flaccid state to a full erection, and varying hg levels, as well as time.

I’ve also recently just acquired a wet/dry pump.

Originally Posted by pudendum
I do not dispute that gains occur with pumping. There is too much evidence on this forum and elsewhere that it works.


Well said. How do you feel about loose skin? Just kidding. :leftie:


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
Makes the old saw about going into the pump erect need questioning.


I have been doing just such questioning recently, but only to myself.

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
My thought on this was always that the erection reduced the amount of lymph buildup, er, edema and allowed for more blood to be drawn in.


This is what I thought too.

I do find that an erection (or even two :) ) is the best way to eliminate donuts if one is guilty of going too far.


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

The blood flow to the skin is also decreased, this may explain the observation of decreased edema build up when pumping at full erection. At lower levels, when blood flow to the subcutaneous tissue (below the skin) is still good, this would be the time that edema formation potential would be the highest.

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

I do find that an erection (or even two :) ) is the best way to eliminate donuts if one is guilty of going too far.

The second erection would put increased pressure on ECF to push it out into the lymph vessels and decrease the donut.

Originally Posted by pudendum

The blood flow to the skin is also decreased, this may explain the observation of decreased edema build up when pumping at full erection. At lower levels, when blood flow to the subcutaneous tissue (below the skin) is still good, this would be the time that edema formation potential would be the highest.

However with some sort of barrier, either a condom, silicone sleeve, or some say with water (i.e. water pumping) that subcutaneous flow would likely be mitigated, yes?


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Here is a good reference to the blood flow during erection. Concentrate on the cavernosa.

Quote
Activation of the autonomic nerve produces a full erection, that is, filling and trapping of blood in the cavernous bodies. After full erection is achieved, contraction of the ischiocavernosus muscle (from activation of the somatic nerves) compresses the proximal corpora and raises the pressure in the entire corpora well above the systolic blood pressure, resulting in rigid erection (Table 37–1) This rigid phase occurs naturally during masturbation or sexual intercourse but can also occur from slight bending of the penis, without muscular action. The erection process can be divided into phases, as shown in Table 37–1 and Figure 37–2. The hemodynamic of the glans penis is somewhat different. Arterial flow increases in the glans in a manner similar to that in the shaft. Because it lacks the tunica albuginea, however, the glans functions as an arteriovenous fistula [direct shunting of blood from arteries to veins without traveling through capillaries] during the full erection phase. Nevertheless, during rigid erection, most of the venous channels are temporarily compressed, and further engorgement of the glans can be observed.

Chapter 37. Male Sexual Dysfunction. Tom F. Lue, MD in Lange Urology, The McGraw-Hill Companies, 2007. via Access Medicine

Here is a reference on long erections (priapism) resulting from prolonged normal physiologic venous obstruction (basically part of the normal erection process). Shows the trapping of blood in the cavernosa, though not the spongiosum:

Quote
The patient with low-flow priapism (ischemic [very low oxygen]) usually presents with a history of several hours of painful erection. The glans penis and corpus spongiosum are soft and uninvolved in the process. The corpora cavernosa are tense with congested blood and tender to palpation. The current theories regarding the mechanism of priapism remain in debate, but most authorities believe the major abnormality to be physiologic obstruction of the venous drainage. This obstruction causes buildup of highly viscous, poorly oxygenated blood (low O2, high CO2) within the corpora cavernosa. If the process continues for several days, interstitial [fluid in tissue] edema and fibrosis of the corpora cavernosa will develop, causing impotence.

Chapter 38. Disorders of the Penis & Male Urethra. Jack W. McAninch, MD in Lange Urology, The McGraw-Hill Companies, 2007. via Access Medicine

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
However with some sort of barrier, either a condom, silicone sleeve, or some say with water (i.e. water pumping) that subcutaneous flow would likely be mitigated, yes?


I would agree (particularly a sleeve) because you are raising the pressure in the 3rd space or extracellular space with these methods and thereby decrease the pressure difference between the capillaries and the extracellular space. This would allow the blood proteins to maintain balance between it and pressure difference (described above) and prevent the flood of fluid into the 3rd space and decrease edema.

The use of these maneuvers would definitely be beneficial.

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