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Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
I am clamping at 102 % and use three clamps to obtain maximal pressure and tunica wall stress.


Whoa!

Dude.

Perhaps a “Don’t try this at home” warning and disclaimer?

:eek2:

Oh, and how does one measure 102% erection so precisely, I wonder?


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:


Last edited by Mr. Happy : 12-31-2007 at .

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
Ok, I’ll bite.

If we grant a “stiff tunica” will not allow significant pressure change within the cavernosa why would clamping then be more effective? Especially when we consider that by having a hard-on the in-flow of blood has been stopped?

It seems like a stiff tunica is going to be resistant no matter how the pressure is applied.

I’m also curious as to what you think the ideal clamping zone is. Mostly 80% erection is suggested - does this square with pumping at lower pressure?


Understand that I picked a very discrete point in the erection; max. As I said earlier, I believe pumping does work, at lower levels of erection as I suggested.

At peak erection, the placement of a constricting clamp over even the stiff tunica will put a significant inward force which will cause pressure to rise in the cavernosa, significantly. This adds a pressure-induced wall tension that will induce remodeling. It’s not a copper pipe; compression is possible.

The principle of applying negative pressure is that a system exposed to this pressure will attempt to dissipate the pressure difference by expanding. The expansion of a simple system like the balloon comes at the ultimate loss of the pressure within the system to decrease the pressure gradient. Expansion comes at the expense of pressure loss, not gain. This again is in a simple system.

The penis is not a simple system. You add the real issues of tunica compliance the decreases as the erection approaches max. You are not placing a direct inward force on the penis when you pump, you are in fact doing the opposite. This is why the clamp should have a greater effect at PEAK erection.

Again, I have no doubts that pumping works at lower levels of erection and I do not dispute success. But to get an understanding of a complex organ like the penis which to say the least undergoes dynamic changes experienced nowhere else in the body, you must break things down into discrete subsystems and/or situations. I picked peak erection to try to get some handle on that specific phase.

Good clarification.


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Originally Posted by sparkyx
…you are both WAY over my head with these equations, but this is the question I have.


If we are way over your head then we’re not doing this forum any good. When we are please tell us to back off and try to be more explicit. Sometimes when I’m into the science of things it can be difficult to cut the crap and just explain it plainly.

Originally Posted by sparkyx
It seems to me that the absolute pressure inside the tunica isn’t the real issue, its the expansive STRESS effecting the tunica that is what we are shooting for. Yes, I understand the concept of low compliance, but even a brick wall at some point will break.

The tunica may not expand much at the point you are discussing Pud, but I believe it can be “stressed” enough to cause productive physiologic changes, or how else can any gains from pumping be reported? Gains DO occur, so there is obviously some mechanism involved. Personally, I believe the stress produced from the pressure differential is stressing the tunica in a way that is causing expansion.


Again, don’t get me wrong I do believe that pumping works. I am not trying to be a naysayer to a method that represents a significant part of this forum. I am simply trying to breakdown a very complex system and understand it so we can explain why what we do works. Investigating complex and dynamic systems is not easy.

Sparxx, the absolute pressure within the cavernosa is important if it is the tension-stress method you are using to attack, in this case, the tunica, that is if you are clamping, jelqing or squeezing.

That being said, I agree with you with regards to pumping. Your goal is to expand the blood capacity to add a tension stress by expanding volume. And I also believe that this can be attained by pumping up to but possibly not to as great a degree at peak erection (in my assessment).

As I have said before there are no special mechanism for connective tissue remodeling in the penis. Tension-induced remodeling is the most important mechanism for connective tissue lengthening and strengthening. It works.

Originally Posted by sparkyx
Now, it may be a secondary effect of cellular grow as opposed to actually stretching the tunica, but I can only guess at this. Maybe only fractions of a millimeter of expansion, when held for certain periods of time result in cellular stimulation causing growth. Pumpers have reported for years that modest vacuum levels work far better than high levels, so maybe its not classic plastic deformation, rather cellular stimulation that drives gains.


I don’t disagree with you here. I don’t know if you’ve seen the thread I started regarding this very point:

Possible reason for PE induced growth

On a cellular level, fractions of a millimeter (microns) can and do cause deformation of the fibroblasts and stimulation of cell growth (fibroplasia) and collagen and other fiber subunit production.

So yes, if you can feel and you believe that at peak erection you are elevating the tunica (volume? from the negative pressure?) and thereby introducing a small but significant tension stress on the it, then I’ll grant you that it probably causes the remodeling you are working for.

Now if you are the impatient sort, clamping probably gives you more bang for the buck as I said before (again I don’t clamp).

Originally Posted by ThunderSS

I think you ought to buy a pump and then rethink your pressure ideas pudendum. Nothing like first hand experience to help get a handle on something.

Originally Posted by ThunderSS

Buy a pump.

Recommend me a good one and I’ll give it a few torr.

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
I think that I now found one major and relevant difference between clamping and pumping:

If you pump, the cavernous chambers are “open” towards the base of the penis. Pumpers therefore can experience going in the pump rock hard and out of the pump with a semi.

If you clamp, you are creating a closed compartment, and only therein the compliance equations really hold. Once you but a tight clamp at the base, the volume of blood is fixed. Adding another clamp theoretically leaves the volume of blood unchanged but the space within tunica is smaller because of the second clamp’s compression effect. As a consequence, the pressure will rise and - Sparky - increase the wall stress in the tunica much more then with any other method. A further pressure increase can be obtained by even more clamps, or they can be used to avoid pressure drop due to leakage of blood outside of the “closed” compartment.


I agree that this is a major difference in the “volume” effect between the two methods.

Originally Posted by pudendum
Sometimes when I’m into the science of things it can be difficult to cut the crap and just explain it plainly.


As a general rule it never hurts to to cut the crap and just explain it plainly.

Not to say that the more technical analyses and discussions aren’t welcome; they are, but it’s not a bad idea to recap such stuff in lay men’s terms just to be sure that everyone can follow.

It also makes it easier for some of our international members, where English is a second or third language, to translate - or for our translator mods to do so on the Spanish forum. Know what I’m saying?

However your post are definitely welcome, for sure. :)

Originally Posted by pudendum
Recommend me a good one and I’ll give it a few torr.


There’s cockpump.com, which is the LA Pumps Dist company, and has an excellent quality product and very good customer service.

Boston Pumps.com are also very good - though I’ve never ordered from them online - I do use some of their cylinders and their wet/dry pump. They have packages that I think beat Kaplan and some of the others.

Shop around.


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
I am clamping at 102 % and use three clamps to obtain maximal pressure and tunica wall stress.

I’m curious: One clamp gives real good expansion. What’s the logic of three??

Keep in mind that with three, you are getting no tunical wall press under each of the three clamps. That’s some unaffected inches.


_______________

avocet8

Originally Posted by avocet8
Keep in mind that with three, you are getting no tunical wall press under each of the three clamps. That’s some unaffected inches.


Great point!

ttt, do you rotate locations you clamp? Aren’t you concerned about an accordion or bellows-like tunica (wavy)?

Originally Posted by pudendum
If we are way over your head then we’re not doing this forum any good. When we are please tell us to back off and try to be more explicit. Sometimes when I’m into the science of things it can be difficult to cut the crap and just explain it plainly.

No complaint, just as Mr Happy says, its good to add a recap for us intellectually impaired.

Originally Posted by pudendum
I don’t disagree with you here. I don’t know if you’ve seen the thread I started regarding this very point:

Possible reason for PE induced growth

Read it, great thread!

Originally Posted by pudendum

On a cellular level, fractions of a millimeter (microns) can and do cause deformation of the fibroblasts and stimulation of cell growth (fibroplasia) and collagen and other fiber subunit production.

So yes, if you can feel and you believe that at peak erection you are elevating the tunica (volume? from the negative pressure?) and thereby introducing a small but significant tension stress on the it, then I’ll grant you that it probably causes the remodeling you are working for.

Now if you are the impatient sort, clamping probably gives you more bang for the buck as I said before (again I don’t clamp).

That’s assuming the higher the internal pressure the better…I don’t know if that’s true. It may well be that higher pressure shifts the mechanism into plastic deformation and brings cellular stimulation to a crashing halt. But its total speculation on my part.

Happy New Year everyone, and thanks Thunder for providing this great forum!

I would like to put here my 2 cents again, if you guys don’t mind.

I think things are becoming confusing because we have adopted a too much abstract point of view. If we are speaking about physics phenomena, we have to start by what we can observe. Let’s suppose an average penis is 6” length (NBP) x 5” girth. If we clamp so tight that 3” inch of the penis is practically “void”, we are raising the pressure at roughly double of when starting. So, if pressure in erect penis is 3 HG, clamping up to half length raise the pressure to about 6 HG.

First point: could we agree that this kind of work (remembering that clamps are so tights that volume under them is near zero) will easily cause a serious injury to the tunica albuginea? I suppose “Yes”. We could have a tears of tunica compressed by clamps, but also a break of tunica in the unclamped area, and damages in the glans as well.
Let’s see what happens with a pump: raising pressure to 6 HG will lead to same injury? Do a try, you’ll find the answer is “Not”.

So: analogous levels of pressure aren’t affecting in the same way the tunica when pumping as it happens when clamping. This is a fact.

Is theoretically possible raising pressure in the pump so much that same degree of stress on the tunica is obtained? Theoretically, yes. But let’s see what happens with lower numbers.
A clamp (so tight that volume under of the penis gripped is zero) wide 1 inch should cause a raise in the pressure inside tunica of roughly 1/6 higher. A practical experiment will tell us that 1) the expansion obtained is near (or above) dangerous levels; 2) the penis is rock-hard.
Translating that pressure to pumping, it would be a 3.5 Hg; this is a level of pressure not dangerous at all. This confirm what we have observed above.

What would be a level of pressure so high that tears or break of tunica would happen by pumping? I don’t think that even at 12 HG of pressure this could happens – let’s relate to what ttt just said about his experiment with pump. But what would happens (for most of us) using a 12 HG pressure when pumping? Easily, “fluff” penis, temporary ED, loss of sensitivity etc..

So: using a pump, the pressure is deforming other penile tissue’s than tunica more than it happens by clamping. It means: pressure is affecting (and deforming) tunica more when clamping than when pumping. It means again that, for our goals, pressure is more profitably used when clamping than when pumping. In the first case, tunica resistance is the limit; in the second, not.

The explanation of this fact could be that others tissue than tunica (and/or limph build-up) are, to use a metaphoric term , absorbing the pressure.

I can’t say better than that, and if it’s not clear, I apologize in advance.

I want to add an attempt of a more formal description of what I mean. This is in blue color, so those not interested in details can miss it- it is not essential, and could be confusing.
All of you have also to remember that I’m not a phisicist, and this is just a try for a “second level” reading, if you get what I mean.

Pressure (P) is what we want to use for deforming the tunica.
Pressure should act on volume (V) of tunica.
Changes in volume are (dV).
Deforming effect is D.
While the absolute value of D should be P/dV, if we want a relative measure, or index, we have to relate dV to starting V.
So: D= P/(dV/V).
If penis was only made of tunica, higher levels of P should lead to higher D values in a linear way.
But if penis was made of, in example, three different tissues, the higher pressure level could be not so linear; i.e., I suppose (a physicist or engineer should chime in) this:

P = (P1+P2+P3)/3=(D *dV1/V1 + D *dV2/V2 + D *dV3/V3)/3.

Otherwise said, when clamping P is pressure hitting tunica entirely. When pumping, P is the median pounded value of those P(n) values- this is what we read on the pump-gauge.
Moreover, the maximum level of P that can be obtained is correlated to the mini-max of that these P(n) we want : the lower value of each max P(n) value.
This mini-max P(n) is, itself, dependent to the maximal D value we want on each tissue : the lower value of each max D(n) value.

Others things related to penis anatomy, observed by our thread-MEDS, can of course concur as well in limiting the maximum value of P that can be obtained, or the effectiveness of P on tunica deformation.

I’m not chewing on this tonight. Simple question, what is HG? What pressure units are these. I’m not familiar with it.

Originally Posted by avocet8
I’m curious: One clamp gives real good expansion. What’s the logic of three??

Keep in mind that with three, you are getting no tunical wall press under each of the three clamps. That’s some unaffected inches.

I start with one. As soon as the erection diminishes (5-10 min) slightly I place the second one just next to the third one. Later (5 more minutes or so), I place the third one right below the glans. Total session time 10-20 min. Aim: very high stress in in the glans (I have good base girth, mainly from hanging. The glans is ok, but I would like to add that little extra kick (which is hard to achieve according to what I read).

Also, bib-hanging people often claim girth gains right at the location where the hanger compresses their dicks. I never understood why that is so, but if it should be true the clamps wouldn’t even hinder girth gains at the compression points, let alone the expanded parts. If you change the position of the clamps every once in a while or from session to session that effect will be marginal anyhow.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
There’s cockpump.com, which is the LA Pumps Dist company, and has an excellent quality product and very good customer service.

That stuff is expensive but excellent quality.

Give it a few mm Hg.


Later - ttt

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