Cya, that’s how I feel too … I have no complaints with my gains thus far, but I am almost without doubt that there are certain things that can be done to help gains come easier and help those who have done PE and have nothing to show for it make gains (even though guys who gain absolutely nothing are not as common as gainers, everyone deserves something to show for the work they put in). I was particularly interested in Winstrol because it weakens the bonds that collagen forms to itself making it one of the most promising things I have looked at thus far. I’m going to research a bit more and hopefully I’ll be able to set up an experiment.
I don’t know if I’d be willing to try relaxin. Would need to research it more first. Oh, and get a government grant to cover the cost of the pills, but that might interfere with my grant for studying flatulent penguins.
Here’s another option for the brave.
Great Hobby! I hope you find it to be safe enough for experimentation. The cost would only be in the name of science……..PE science..
I’m not injecting anything…….Any volunteers for that????? Thunder? :chuckle:
Hey, I read about this at either CC or PE Forums before I found Thunder’s. I thought someone had made it up. :p
Anyways … sounds painful. If it weren’t for the fact I don’t think there is a chance in hell it would penetrate the dermal layers, I (probably) would have already tried topical cortisone. I have heard that it softens collagen as well.
There are transdermals that are deep penetrators. Some arthritic medications are transdermal and for them to work, they need to be capable of penetrating all the way to the effected area. Some use MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) which is a relative to dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO). DMSO is commonly used as a penetration enhancer for BBers with Steroids and Prohormones.
I’ve looked at this too, but I fell on the other side of the fence - deciding that the kind of action winstrol has on collagen would not be good for our purposes. I actually think that depressing collagen deposition would be the way to go. You can get relaxin from beyond-a-century slightly cheaper (but only slightly). I would be willing to try this except that I think the dosages they supply are pitifully small, and would probably be insignificant. All the studies I’ve seen use many times higher dosages.
As for PGE1, is suspect you’d run into trouble with a priapism, unless you could guarantee that it *only* reached the sheath and not the CC.
PGE2 looks a more likely candidate, but at a couple of hundred dollars a shot it’s beyond the reach of most.
If anybody finds a source of relaxin at a serious dose (400-500mcg) then I’ll volounteer as a guinea pig.
Could you tell me in particular why you don’t think the effects of Winstrol would be beneficial to PE? I’m definitely not saying you are incorrect by any means, I am just curious to know your reasoning (and of course see if it makes me rethink my own :p ).
Welcome Shiver. Shiver and I have spent countless hours going over pertainant information regarding PE. We have shared much of our findings and theories. He can add greatly to our quest here. In some areas, he is much more informed than I.
Yeah, I have read quite a bit of what he has posted publicly and I know he is well-informed when it comes to supplements and their effects. I have of course been curious as to the effects of prostaglandin as well, but I had to bring this up because I have at least seen posts on the possibility of prostaglandin as a PE supplement, but I have never even seen Winstrol brought up
About relaxin: What are the specifics on the effects it has? IE - how much dosage would it take to actually make a difference? How long does it last per dosage? Does it just increase elasticity, or does it increase the ability of the collagen to stretch? (If it is just increases the elasticity, could that not do just the opposite being that it would take more stress to get the tissue stretched to the point of plastic deformation?)
Please don’t confuse my messed up opinions with fact! :o )
The reason I looked into winstrol was because some well meaning supplier sent me 10g powder as compensation for a delay in delivery for ECA tabs some time back. I don’t use roids, so it sat in the cupboard until I came across it one day and wondered “what if?”.
The info I found suggested that although winstrol increased collagen deposition drastically, it did it in a haphazard way, which reduced tensile strength. If I was looking to use AAS to increase deposition then I think this would be bottom of my list, as I would want a uniform matrix of crosslinking.
Collagen integrity aside, I think that increasing collagen would make gains incredibly difficult to achieve. I have a hunch that genetically gifted PE people (DLD, BIB etc) naturally have a low collagen healing rate. In fact, writing that reminds me of a post I read once (from Bib I think) where he mentioned that he had recurring troubles with joint injuries.
If testosterone depresses collagen synthesis (and is also involved in secondary sexual development) then I believe that would be a better approach. Further still, there is good evidence that this can be achieved without the use of exogenous AAS, thus avoiding shutdown and all that it entails in encouraging recovery.
I have been intrigued by Relaxin since I first read about it, and I had hoped that it could possibly become a viable PE supplement. This thread today has prodded me to do some research and I think I can safely conclude that Relaxin will not be the magic bullet for PE. Even if it were to work, I think there are some potential drawbacks:
Why it won’t work
1) See the study here.
Two parts of the study speak to PE
Furthermore, this study provides evidence that both the vagina and uterus contain specific and saturable relaxin-binding sites in epithelial cells, smooth muscle cells, and cells associated with blood vessels. We conclude that these cells probably initiate relaxin’s effects on the vagina and uterus of the pregnant pig.
Or in English, relaxin will only work on body parts that are designed to work with it.
The study also says:
Relaxin is secreted, but has no verified effects in humans.
2) In addition, Relaxin might not work except in the presence of high levels of female hormones. See here for a pig study indicating that Relaxin by itself might not do the trick.
The study concludes in part:
Relaxin alone had no effect on either uterine length or wet weight…. Combined treatment with progesterone, estrogen, and relaxin increased both uterine length and wet weight maximally.
3) Dosage. In the above study the gilts (female pigs) were given .5mg four times per day, for a total daily dosage of 2.0 mg. The study does not state it, but the average weight for a gilt is 250 pounds. The Vitalaxin pills are 20mcg each, so it would take 100 of the pills to equal the daily dosage given to the gilts. On a per pound of bodyweight basis it would take 80 tablets per day to give the equivalent dosage to a 200 pound human. In addition, the relaxin administered in the study was almost certainly injected. Since the relaxin pills must pass through the digestive tract, it is likely that a good bit of it or even all of it would be broken down in the stomach and not reach the bloodstream. This would increase the amount required to be taken by a factor of 2 to 10 times. Thus you would need somewhere between 160 and 800 pills per day (or possibly even more) to get to the dosage used in that study.
1) Greatly increased risk of injury. For the sake of argument, suppose that relaxin would work in the body of a human male. Anything that relaxes your ligaments substantially could turn any physical activity into a hazardous endeavor. Think about how easy it would be to turn your ankle, dislocate your shoulder or knee, or cause some other havoc with many other body parts if your ligaments actually stretched too easily.
2) Since high levels of relaxin are not normal in a male’s body, then it’s a totally untested medical concept for a male. Probably no harm here, but it might be a very dangerous thing to try.
On the other hand if someone gave me some of the pills, I’d probably try them, but just not expect anything.
My concerns were that by weakening of the tunica might intale some sort of injury proneness by exerting large quantities of stress upon it. I dont believe that cross linking would be an issue with the use of a ADS or continues light stretching. The problem arises with higher tensile stress and possible rupture.
I have posted About the use of PGE1 in another thread but my thoughts are that it could not be permanent because you are allowing the cells the be stretched further without actually causing any additional stress upon them. I think the idea here is to apply controlled damage upon the tunica and using an elasticity hormone would thereby lower the amount of stress applied.
Just my opinoin.
I remember that post as well. And now that you mention that, I see how it could work both ways, either of which seem feasible. But even if your rate of collagen synthesis is up, would your body respond by distributing it to areas that are already concentrated with collagen or would it only use the excess collagen for the replacement of dead collagen cells? Either way, if you could balance the amount you use such that the newly generated cells are all used on replacing cells of collagen that were at the edges of any microtears that were generated through PE, it would not still stand to make them stronger would it? Also, drinking a lot of water increases the production of collagen, but some people have said to have seen a correlation between water intake and gains. For all we know, the reason some people might not be gainers is because the cells that are being replaced are not being replaced with the most healthy cells. Perhaps the people who are big gainers have naturally weak collagen crosslinks. There is so much speculation that could potentially be involved, but all great discoveries begin as questions. I’m grateful there are places like this where ideas can be shared to arrive at the answers more quickly.
Excellent points. In my mind I was thinking of using this as a local transdermal though rather than orally. The point about only certain tissues being responsive however was something that I had failed to take on board.
I remember reading somewhere that elasticity hormones also had the effect of allowing stretching without pain (think woman being turned on enough for intercourse). Do you think that this might blunt the pain feedback thus potentially luring the user into dangerous tensile loading when stretching without being aware?
“Summary: In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625-5 micrograms per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability but enhanced collagen synthesis in a dose-dependent manner. Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1 (I) and alpha1 (III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels. There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone. The stimulatory effects of stanozolol on collagen synthesis were blocked by a TGF-beta1 anti-sense oligonucleotide, by antibodies to TGF-beta, and in dermal fibroblast cultures derived from TGF-beta-1 knockout mice. We conclude that collagen synthesis is increased by the anabolic steroid stanozolol and that, for the most part, this effect is due to TGF-beta-1. These findings point to a novel mechanism of action of anabolic steroids.”
This is something I found on the web some time ago. I believe the use of an ADS with Winstrol may be useful but you have to continue circulation or you wont get any benefit from the use of Winstrol. Also, along with Shivers earlier posts with heat, I believe a heated sock like device could greatly benefit those who are using ADS right now.