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LOT question

The crura anchor on the ischiopubic rami, far back toward the ischial tuberosities. On me, the inner penis is over five inches, as measured from the points of crura attachment to the junction of the penis shaft and the mons pubis (exit point).

As for suspensory ligaments, there are actually two: the fundiform and the triangular. The fundiform is an extension of the abdominal fascia, which passes over the pubic symphysis, splits into two lamellae that pass around the penile shaft and fuse ventrally with the penoscrotal septum. This ligament acts like a sling, suspending the penis with only moderate attachment to the penile fascia, and is the reason why aggressive downward and BTC stretching can make the abdomen sore. The triangular ligament attaches to the anterior face of the pubic symphysis, descends directly, and fuses with the lateral aspects of the penile fascia. This is the ligament that provides the most support for the penile shaft, and is, most likely, the lig most worked by stretching and hanging.

One other thing to consider is that the suspensory ligaments (and the flava ligaments of the spine) are predominantly elastin, not collagen, unlike all other ligaments in the body, even the crura. This suggests that a different strategy is needed for stretching the suspensory ligaments versus the crura and the tunicae. A widely held idea is that gains occur when very small tears are generated in the collagen fibers of ligaments and fascia, which are then ‘filled in’ during repair, making a longer fiber in the process. This process is confounded when the bulk of the ligament is elastin, since elastin is much more extensible than collagen. In other words, think of collagen as a rope and elastin as a bungee cord. In order to get a really good suspensory ligament stretch, a guy would have to completely extend, or fatigue, the elastin before any real stress can be brought to bear on the collagen. One would also have to keep the elastin in a maximally extended state after collagen tearing to achieve optimal collagen fiber lengthening. The technique suggested by this thinking is a moderate stretch, followed by a short-term, hard stretch, followed by a long-term, moderate stretch. This would optimally be done by hanging, but can also be achieved by manual stretching, as I do. The problem with manual stretching is that the follow-up, moderate stretch is tedious as hell unless one has a traction device or a weight that allows mobility.

Cheers!

Welcome to the forum, Doctor. Now, I’d be much obliged if you’d weigh in on all this LOT stuff. Does LOT Theory make any sense to you?


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 08-20-2005 at .

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Welcome to the forum, Doctor. Now, I’d be much abliged if you’d weigh in on all this LOT stuff. Does LOT Theory make any sense to you?

Thanks! (Not quite a doctor - give me a few more years :) )

As for the LOT theory, I really haven’t paid too much attention to it since I don’t hang. I’ll read through it, though, and get back to you.

Originally Posted by xenolith
How does the attachment point along the shaft change? Isn’t that a fixed junction? With regard to the attachment point on the PS, we’ve already established that it must lower for IP->OP conversion right? So, does “back” mean lower in the context of your above statement?

Somewhere on this forum I cited a study that showed that the suspensory ligament attaches to the pubic symphysis over a length of about 37mm.

Here it is.

I am guessing that the suspensory lig attaches to the shaft over about the same length. This is supported by the dissection views, anatomical drawings, and MRIs. So, I think the answer to your question is, certainly, the attachment point along the shaft changes when you hang. In particular, I think what happens (and I think Bib agrees) is that the higher, most forward bundles of the ligament stretch first. Stretching effectively causes the longer fibers to become more or less irrelevant— they stretch and no longer resist any tugging force. The stress then is borne by shorter, more internal (lower) fibers. Eventually, these bundles stretch as well, themselves becoming irrelevant. This process continues until the attachment points of the RELEVANT fibers (the only ones that bear any real force) are lower down on the pubic symphysis and more internal on the shaft.

The simulator shows this. As you vary the position along the pubic symphysis of the lig attachment between low, medium, and high, you can see that BOTH attachment points change—that on the PS and that along the shaft. This is how inner penis is converted to outer penis. You can see this directly by selecting the different settings.

How much do the attachment points change? I’m guessing about 37mm along the PS and 37mm along the shaft—assuming you manage to completely strip back the ligament to the base.

The inevitable conclusion from all this is that the maximum anyone can gain from lig stretching ALONE is about 37mm. Actually, that’s not true. The pubic symphysis is angled at about 45-degrees. That means the max lig gains in BPEL are only about 0.707 * 37mm (0.707 is the cosine of 45-degrees). All other gains come from stretching the shaft.

So as not to mislead, it is possible that stretching the ligs gives the hanger better access the the inner penis, which can be stretched via upward hanging (or SO for some guys). Therefore, greater shaft gains may be attainable for guys who stretch their ligs than those who don’t, simply because the loosened ligs allow the inner penis (crura) to be stretched a greater distance.


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I just checked the simulator and realized I failed to account for something in my description above. The lig is shown as a single strand, so stretching the lig directly adds BPEL because it lowers the angle of the inner penis. It literally pulls the inner penis down and out.

This is not the way I currently think the ligament works, however. As I described above, the lig tends to stretch by being “peeled back.” This means it always stays fairly tightly adhered to the pubic symphysis—at least to the bottom thereof.

The paper I cited above identifies a “subpubic arcuate ligament,” which attaches from the very bottom of the pubic symphysis to the shaft. This lig is very short and very tough. I’m guessing that it would be a bitch to stretch this ligament, if it is possible at all.

This means that the inner penis always passes close by the base of the pubic symphysis on its way out the body. It is not allowed to hang down and have its angle substantially lowered.

This is a major difference between lig stretching and surgery. Surgery could cut this ligament and allow the angle of the IP to be lowered, thus expressing more IP as OP. Hanging does not do this nearly as well, because the subpubic arcuate ligament hangs on.

Still, given the choice, I’d prefer to keep my ligaments intact.

The new version of the simulator (if it ever arrives) will include a second lig line representing the subpubic arcuate ligament. This will, IMO, be more correct.


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 08-20-2005 at .

Originally Posted by xenolith
Let me try again, I’m wondering IF Bigger reported big LOT changes in addition to the big gains we know he reported, is Modesto using that information as the basis for his assertion that I should have observed greater changes in LOT than I did when I gained. IOW, is he expecting that my medium gains should correlate to the same magnitude of LOT changes that Bigger saw? I can’t imagine that he would, but in the absence of some information indicating that some magnitude of change in LOT is predicted relative to some metric like gains or lig stretch, I’m stuck with grasping at straws trying to understand the origin of Modesto’s objections. I do hope we hear from Modesto some more on this.

Xeno,

You are correct that your drop in LOT is consistent, qualitatively, with LOT theory. You are also correct that I think your substantial gains would have caused a greater change in your LOT than you reported.

I personally think a 1-hour change in LOT is nearly in the noise. Yet you gained over an inch from lig stretching alone. Based on my analysis above, you may have already maxed out on your lig gains. But only a 1-hour change? Why have a theory that talks about numbers between 12 o’clock and 6 o’clock when the most people can change is only about an hour?

Bib said at one time that he guessed his LOT started up around 12 and come down toward 6 over the course of his hanging career. He talked about hanging BTC until your LOT drops below 7, and then to switch to upper angles. Start stretching down again when it hits 9. These numbers are not consistent with a theory in which the maximum change is only an hour or so.

But I do see your point, and I don’t mean to be closed-minded about this. Sure, your progress is consistent, at least qualitatively, with LOT Theory. My point is that changes in LOT are so small with changes in lig length that they can practically be ignored.

LOT Theory was presented as some kind of Rosetta Stone for hangers—a guide to tell people how to hang—UP or DOWN. I believe I have shown that it cannot be used for this purpose. Lig length is but one factor in determining LOT—and a minor factor at that. The test should not be used. Newbies should not lament their low LOTs, and senior members should not have to repeat ad nauseum that it’s nothing to worry about. That’s my point.

I’ll give it a rest now.


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 08-20-2005 at .

Alright. One more thing, as long as I’m on a roll. I think it is theoretically impossible for anybody to have a LOT above about 10 o’clock.

LOT is based on a switch in tension between the ligaments and the shaft. Once you get over about 10 o’clock, you’re simply wrapping your penis over the top of the pubic symphysis. Nothing in the Lig-shaft system changes.

I think the guys who say they have LOTs above 10 o’clock simply have no tugback to begin with. They report LOTs of 12 o’clock because that’s the top of the scale. But, as I read the simulation, if you don’t have tugback at 10, you sure as hell aren’t going to have it at 12.


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 08-20-2005 at .

Hi Modesto-

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Somewhere on this forum I cited a study that showed that the suspensory ligament attaches to the pubic symphysis over a length of about 37mm.

Here it is.


I checked that link out…great stuff there. I had read that but had forgotten the info in it…that helped a lot.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
I am guessing that the suspensory lig attaches to the shaft over about the same length. This is supported by the dissection views, anatomical drawings, and MRIs. So, I think the answer to your question is, certainly, the attachment point along the shaft changes when you hang. In particular, I think what happens (and I think Bib agrees) is that the higher, most forward bundles of the ligament stretch first. Stretching effectively causes the longer fibers to become more or less irrelevant— they stretch and no longer resist any tugging force. The stress then is borne by shorter, more internal (lower) fibers. Eventually, these bundles stretch as well, themselves becoming irrelevant. This process continues until the attachment points of the RELEVANT fibers (the only ones that bear any real force) are lower down on the pubic symphysis and more internal on the shaft.


Outstanding! Beautifully articulated, I learned much from that Modesto, thanks.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
The simulator shows this. As you vary the position along the pubic symphysis of the lig attachment between low, medium, and high, you can see that BOTH attachment points change—that on the PS and that along the shaft. This is how inner penis is converted to outer penis. You can see this directly by selecting the different settings.


I’ll go take a look at that!

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
How much do the attachment points change? I’m guessing about 37mm along the PS and 37mm along the shaft—assuming you manage to completely strip back the ligament to the base.

The inevitable conclusion from all this is that the maximum anyone can gain from lig stretching ALONE is about 37mm. Actually, that’s not true. The pubic symphysis is angled at about 45-degrees. That means the max lig gains in BPEL are only about 0.707 * 37mm (0.707 is the cosine of 45-degrees). All other gains come from stretching the shaft.


Roger that, makes perfect sense, and jives with my experience.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
So as not to mislead, it is possible that stretching the ligs gives the hanger better access the the inner penis, which can be stretched via upward hanging (or SO for some guys). Therefore, greater shaft gains may be attainable for guys who stretch their ligs than those who don’t, simply because the loosened ligs allow the inner penis (crura) to be stretched a greater distance.


A big part of my PE strategy over the last year has been based on this principle.

xeno


originally: 6.5" BPEL x 5.0" EG (ms); currently: 9.375" BPEL x 6.75" EG (ms)

Hidden details: Finding xeno: a penis tale; Some photos: Tiger

Tell me, o monks; what cannot be achieved through efforts. - Siddhartha Gautama

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Alright. One more thing, as long as I’m on a roll. I think it is theoretically impossible for anybody to have a LOT above about 10 o’clock.

LOT is based on a switch in tension between the ligaments and the shaft. Once you get over about 10 o’clock, you’re simply wrapping your penis over the top of the pubic symphysis. Nothing in the Lig-shaft system changes.

I think the guys who say they have LOTs above 10 o’clock simply have no tugback to begin with. They report LOTs of 12 o’clock because that’s the top of the scale. But, as I read the simulation, if you don’t have tugback at 10, you sure as hell aren’t going to have it at 12.

I agree with all of that.


originally: 6.5" BPEL x 5.0" EG (ms); currently: 9.375" BPEL x 6.75" EG (ms)

Hidden details: Finding xeno: a penis tale; Some photos: Tiger

Tell me, o monks; what cannot be achieved through efforts. - Siddhartha Gautama

Wonderful! Now let’s all sing Hava Nageela!


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

:)


originally: 6.5" BPEL x 5.0" EG (ms); currently: 9.375" BPEL x 6.75" EG (ms)

Hidden details: Finding xeno: a penis tale; Some photos: Tiger

Tell me, o monks; what cannot be achieved through efforts. - Siddhartha Gautama

ModestoMan,

Sorry, being new here I didn’t realize how much of this stuff had already been discussed. Forgive my redundancies. Anyway, yes, the mechanics of LOT make sense. I have made some diagrams to help explain my take on it. The first just explains what everything is, the second shows a 12 o’clock tug and the effects of the pubic bone and the triangular ligament (I’ve left the fundiform ligament out of these diagrams for clarity), the third shows a 9 o’clock tug, and the fourth shows a 6 o’clock tug. There is embedded text to explain each figure. Also, these figures are schematic and, hence, are relatively anatomically correct.

The figures diagram two extremes based on six variables: high pubic bone angle versus low pubic bone angle, high ligament attachment versus low ligament attachment, and tight ligaments versus loose ligaments. The pubic bone angle is based on a reasonable variation in pelvis morphology among men. The diagrams are of the extremes, and any combination of the six variables is possible.

The principal muscles acting during the tug are the ischiocavernosus (IC) muscles, which connect the crura to the ischiopubic rami. These pull the penis straight back under the pelvis, but are normally used (involuntarily) to slow blood escape from the penis, making a stronger erection. Exercising these muscles will develop a stronger wood. This isn’t a Kegel, though. Kegels are contractions of the pubococcygeus (PC) muscles, which are part of the levator ani muscle group (try to keep from farting – that’s your PC muscle in action). These are the muscles that a guy’s partner (boy or girl) should exercise, to get a nice, tight grip on his wood. So called ‘reverse Kegels’ are contractions of the bulbospongiosus muscle, which wraps around the bulb of the of the corpus spongiosum. Exercising this muscle will improve an erection and give more powerful ejaculations.

Why are IC muscles important in LOT scoring? The IC muscles pull the corpi cavernosa more or less straight under the pelvis. When an IC muscle is contracted, it creates a force vector. The penile shaft responds to that vector in several ways, depending on the aforementioned six variables. In the 12 o’clock position, the penis is pulled around the pubic bone at the symphysis, which acts like a fulcrum point. Contraction of the IC muscles causes a response vector in the penis that follows the curve of the pubic bone. To a first approximation, we can say that the response vector is downward, and you see tug back. At the 9 o’clock position, the penis is minimally affected by the pubic bone, but is still affected by the qualities of the ligaments. Low, loose ligaments will result in little impediment to tug back, and the response vector will roughly parallel the force vector. High, tight ligaments will pull the penis up and anchor it more strongly, resulting in a response vector that is not parallel to the force vector (see diagram). At the 6 o’clock position, ligaments affect the response vector regardless of their description, but, the high, tight ligaments will bind the penis in such a way as to negate the force vector: loss of tugback. Comparatively, the low, loose ligaments will bind the penis only modestly, and the response vector, while modified (diminished force), is still sufficient to be seen as tugback.

Thoughts?

Attached Images
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LOT_6oclock.JPG
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Beautiful drawings and explanation, Priapoligist! You are well on your way toward pushing the knowledge envelope on this site.

If you haven’t done so already, please take a look at the LOT Simulator, and let me know whether you think it correctly represents the anatomy (albeit in highly simplified form).

The ability to change the size and angle of the pubic bone and the addition of new lig strands are revisions in progress (have been for a while). I hope to release those soon.


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

:)


originally: 6.5" BPEL x 5.0" EG (ms); currently: 9.375" BPEL x 6.75" EG (ms)

Hidden details: Finding xeno: a penis tale; Some photos: Tiger

Tell me, o monks; what cannot be achieved through efforts. - Siddhartha Gautama

Thanks, ModestoMan.

No, I hadn’t seen the LOT simulator before you pointed me to it. I can’t work with it until tomorrow, unfortunately, as I have to log off now. I look forward to trying it out.

Cheers!

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