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Possible reason for PE induced growth

Originally Posted by pudendum
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I would be concerned that if you did this at full or peak erection, that you would generate tension that would lead to fiber width increases but not lengthening. Do you think you are generating enough longitudinal tension without being fully erect? I still think that the best possible tensions are generated when you start with your penis at less than full erection. Starting higher than this, you are stretching a poorly compliant tunica and tension-induced connective tissue remodeling will probably give you the thicker fibers that will “protect” the tunica against injury with future similar stresses. In other words, stronger not longer.
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Your argument is reasonable; I was thinking (and doing) a sort of light massage, not really much pressure. I’ve heard about something similar, it’s called “trigger point therapy” - nothing related to PE, however, it’s used to distend fibrotic tissues formations (or something) in muscles.

I don’t do any PE-work with full erections : I always have had the believing that risks > benefits, when working with peak-erected penis, and your analyses are confirming that believing.

Originally Posted by ticktickticker

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Be careful when working on your erected dick with your knuckles. Particularly sensitive areas are the top sides (blood vessels and nerves) and the underside (urethra). I know that you know that, it just comes to mind, for the sake of protecting curious newbies (and others).
……..

I totally subscribe. Reminding risks is good to newbies, intermediates and even to vets - nobody is immune by dangers. Thank you.

Originally Posted by kingpole

Heat. I think warm ups and relaxes the tunica. Example, when doing fowfers the penis is tucked snugly between a testicle and a leg. In time it warms up as it stretches. Longer the warm up period the better for stretching and jelqing or even hanging. Warm up makes the PE more effective.

I totally agree with heat. It is a very important principle used in physical therapy prior to therapeutic stretch. It should be strongly advised to all before and after any PE routine.

Originally Posted by marinera
Your argument is reasonable; I was thinking (and doing) a sort of light massage, not really much pressure. I’ve heard about something similar, it’s called “trigger point therapy” - nothing related to PE, however, it’s used to distend fibrotic tissues formations (or something) in muscles.

Trigger points are areas of inflammation of the muscle coverings (muscle sheaths). This inflammation is know as a myofascial pain syndrome. They can cause radiating or referred pain in a very consistent pattern. They are detected by examination, finding pin point areas of discrete pain of tenderness and if there is referred pain involved in that individual, pressing on this point induces the referred pain pattern.

Treatment of these syndromes is varied and graded (meaning you start conservatively and work up to more aggressive therapy). The most commonly accepted first therapy is stretching and massage. Ultrasound. needling with hypodermic needles to break up the inflammation, injection of saline, injection of local anesthetics and injection of steroids are used as well.

In my opinion, this has nothing to do with PE

Originally Posted by marinera
I don’t do any PE-work with full erections : I always have had the believing that risks > benefits, when working with peak-erected penis, and your analyses are confirming that believing.

And I totally agree with you.

Originally Posted by pudendum
I don’t believe that tension-induced remodeling favors one way over the other, per se. It responses to all kinds of stress, including injury. Your suggestion of a short very intense workout will probably stimulate more fibroblasts causing more of a collagen making response causing a collagen fiber diameter increase over length. This would be like a muscle tendon exposed to a great contraction stress. It would increase fiber size to prevent it from being ripped off bone or other injuries with continued high tension stresses.

ttt - I agree. I’ve also had my best gains at lower intensities. But that hasn’t stopped me from going high intensity as well.

As this thread is about tension-induced remodeling, there are a couple of chemical aspects that may have a benefit here. Certainly PGE-1 has been reported as being beneficial in the process, but that does require an injection. Two other things are available that do not. They are DMSO, and the hormone Relaxin.

DMSO has been discussed here in the past, and like a lot of things, its value is very difficult to determine. I suppose that like a lot of aspects in PE its use by anyone is simply a matter of personal preference. I have not done much research on this point in the medical reference area, only in the PE area.

The advantage of DMSO is that it is used topically, and as such is an easy component to add. It does cause the user to develop a good case of garlic breath, but at least the use knows that this will happen and can plan accordingly. For those so inclined, a search of the literature in regards to the abilities of DMSO to assist with tissue remodeling may be of interest.

The second item that would seem to be a natural is the hormone Relaxin. Relaxin is used during childbirth to get the vagina to expand sufficiently to allow the birth to happen. As such, it seems to be the premier method of causing tissue remodeling. Sadly, it is not available any more. Human recombinant Relaxin was made for a while to see if it would have an benefit in the treatment of Scleroderma. It was found to not be helpful. The balance of the supplies of Relaxin were then sold to a group of Orthodontists to be used in their practice. No results were given as to the success of that trial.

Porcine Relaxin is available over the counter, and I have tried some. At first, it gave me a tingling feeling in my penis. That lasted for only the first two days. After that, nothing was noted. I stopped using it after the first 4 bottles because I could not quantify the results, if any. The good point from my test was that at least it was felt in my penis. This would tend to show that it passed through the stomach unaltered, and that it was being used where tissue remodeling efforts were being made. The bad points were that it was one more item of cost, and it is impossible to determine its effect in the remodeling effort. So taking this would be another act of faith.

Just a few thoughts in regard to tissue remodeling.

I would have to wonder about the side effects of long term usage of porcine relaxin. Given that it is taken by mouth you would
have to reason it would have a systemic effect. I would be concerned what effect it might have on other organs with a high smooth
muscle content such as the heart and vascular system. It would be nice if there was a topical solution that could be used with
the DMSO as a carrier.

I would be really interested in reading about the role of PGE-1 in tissue remodeling. Could you post a link to that Stage?


Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.

Louis Pasteur

Originally Posted by pudendum
I totally agree with heat. It is a very important principle used in physical therapy prior to therapeutic stretch. It should be strongly advised to all before and after any PE routine.

I agree as well, more or less.

What would be the optimum temperature?

And what about cooling down at the end of, e.g., a hanging session, - some even suggested ice?


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by Iguana
I would have to wonder about the side effects of long term usage of porcine relaxin. Given that it is taken by mouth you would
have to reason it would have a systemic effect. I would be concerned what effect it might have on other organs with a high smooth
muscle content such as the heart and vascular system. It would be nice if there was a topical solution that could be used with
the DMSO as a carrier.

I would be really interested in reading about the role of PGE-1 in tissue remodeling. Could you post a link to that Stage?

Hello Iguana,

I am guilty of simply obtaining the fact that PGE-1 is a tissue remodeler from the textbooks from Elsevier in my library. Added to that are a number of references to the use of PGE-1 in PE on this board and another. However there are a number of articles that deal with the tissue remodeling aspects of PGE -1. This particular one shows a test of men with ED who used injectables alone and they did not have any change in the structure of the penis. This matches with the experience of millions of men who use these injectables for overcoming ED and have not noticed any change in penile structure. What they were lacking of course, was the concurrent application of tension, such as stretching would provide, to give impetus to the tissue remodeling.

HerLink

This article is also found here:

DOES PROSTAGLANDIN E1 THERAPY MODIFY THE INTRACAVERNOUS MUSCULATURE?.
The Journal of Urology, Volume 163, Issue 2, Pages 464-466
E. WESPES, A. SATTAR, J. NOËL, C. SCHULMAN

An article that describes the effects of PGE-1 in tissue remodeling can be found here:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/jwk9d5lh7w6pl0f0/

This is a general description of the prostaglandins in general, which reference a role in cell growth:
http://www.righthealth.com/Health/p…Prostaglandin-s

The relationship of PGE-1 to vascular pressure is shown here:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb…ifier=AD0770149

We have a thread that was in regard to Chemical PE started by Modestoman on this board which has a lot of information in it. I will have to go find that thread and post it in another posting though as I have a time constraint at the moment.

Hope that helps.

Stage

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
I agree as well, more or less.

What would be the optimum temperature?

And what about cooling down at the end of, e.g., a hanging session, - some even suggested ice?


The penis in its flaccid state has a temperature lower than the normal internal body temperature, maybe into the mid 90’s (degrees Fahrenheit). Heat increases blood flow which is beneficial.

ttt - how high is high enough? Good question. Burnt or scalded skin is not beneficial. Temp should not be much higher than acceptable in a hot tub, about 104 - 105 degrees Fahrenheit. I’d be concerned at any temp higher.

You’ll need to tell me when cold is beneficial. Is there concern of swelling after hanging? I don’t hang. Is this the reason for cold, to reduce swelling. Or are you trying to “fix” gains? I’m concerned that by decreasing temperature, you are decreasing the metabolic activity of the cells involved with tension-induced connective tissue remodeling (fibroblasts and inflammatory cells). Just thinking out loud.

pudendum, great thread!

Over the last year or so I began to believe that the micro tear theory explained the actual mechanism of our penises enlarged. I came to this conclusion by researching articles about joint contractures in the physical therapy field. Nevertheless, you have my attention. I’ve been running a few words and/or phrases through the online search engines. All I can say is that I am open-minded and accept the possibility that micro tears may not be the mechanism by which the size of the penis is increased. I’m not making a decision yet. I’m going to research this info for a bit.

About plastic deformation. Time and time again, the biomechanical meaning for plastic deformation is confused with the engineering mechanics meaning for plastic deformation. While being extreemely similiar, in biomechanics it simply means “permanently changed”. Also, this change does not have to occur “all” at once, and can be the result of several interupted applications of force. While I don’t feel that you, pudendum, confused the meanings of plastic deformation, a number of other members do. In the past here it was mentioned as a possible mechanism, while all along it is only the description of a new state of connective tissue, if the change is permanent. As to how that change came about, and what occured on the cellular level, that is what we seek to clarify.

Again, thanks for this thread.

Conditions have to be favorable for cell duplication and cell growth for the penis to grow. Sat02 levels need to be at 100%. Feratin levels need to be normal or little above normal. So the oxygen and nutrients can be carried to the cells. Growth hormone needs to be at a elevated level. I believe growth occurs when testosterone levels peak in seasons. And all these other substances collaborate at the same time. Oh yes estrogen must be considerably lower as well. The penis must be well hydrated as well. Dehydrated person means dehydrated dick.

Of course this is off the top of my head and I could be wrong about all.


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

Originally Posted by pudendum
You’ll need to tell me when cold is beneficial. Is there concern of swelling after hanging? I don’t hang. Is this the reason for cold, to reduce swelling. Or are you trying to “fix” gains? I’m concerned that by decreasing temperature, you are decreasing the metabolic activity of the cells involved with tension-induced connective tissue remodeling (fibroblasts and inflammatory cells). Just thinking out loud.

The idea to cool down in a stretched state after ‘hot hanging’ is that the heat loosens the collagen somehow, but the elastic fibers tend to “pull back” after the stress is relieved (turtling). Many believe that this can be obviated, however I personally don’t like ice, on top of your argument I feel that cold is a turtling factor in itself. (I do not experience major swelling when I use the vac-hanger + wrap).


Later - ttt

Quote
Over the last year or so I began to believe that the micro tear theory explained the actual mechanism of our penises enlarged. I came to this conclusion by researching articles about joint contractures in the physical therapy field. Nevertheless, you have my attention. I’ve been running a few words and/or phrases through the online search engines. All I can say is that I am open-minded and accept the possibility that micro tears may not be the mechanism by which the size of the penis is increased. I’m not making a decision yet. I’m going to research this info for a bit.

Kojack, - I think it all depends on the stress load. If you are hanging really heavily, microtears certainly play a major role.

An ads is working on a completely different basis, obviously.

I think that both concepts melt together if we think of the two extreme mechanisms operating simultaneously in more or less ‘moderate’ pe-efforts.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by kingpole
Conditions have to be favorable for cell duplication and cell growth for the penis to grow..

Of course. But I don’t think that that must be true during your workout.

Right the contrary is true: ischemia (lack of blood flow) induces formation of new blood vessels, for sure in the extremities, and very likely in our dicks.


Later - ttt

Here is a study where in the scientist are unsure whether or not micro tears, or biochemical remodelling is responsible for the permanent increase in length of a rabbit MCL ligament.

Quote
We speculate that the increase in elongation after
;5% strain and change in mechanical properties are
the result of fiber damage arising from two possible
mechanisms. One mechanism would be torn or plastically
deformed fibers. Torn fibers would be consistent
with the fiber failure mode of Hurschler’s micromechanical
model for ligament behavior (16), and plastically
deformed fibers could be supported by experimental
observations by Sasaki et al. (33, 34) and Kukreti
and Belkoff (22) who observed that collagen fibrils,
which make up collagen fibers, elongate during tendon
loading. In addition, Yahia et al. (41), using scanning
electron microscopy, reported damage to collagen fibers
in subfailure strained ligaments. Another possible
mechanism for the observed ligament laxity could be
biochemical degradation of the ECM from protease
release associated with the observed cellular necrosis.
Regardless of the mechanism, the resulting increase in
tissue length represents tissue laxity and can be hypothesized
to increase joint laxity.

The link is http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/LigSubFailDmg.pdf

Either way, subfailure damage on the cellular level was observed.

I do recall one article that stated that after a micro tear occurs, the contents of the cell pour out into the ECM. Possibly the contents contain some biochemicals that send a signal. I’m just throwing some thoughts around. Don’t take that as a fact.

Originally Posted by kingpole

Conditions have to be favorable for cell duplication and cell growth for the penis to grow. Sat02 levels need to be at 100%.

kingpole - A normal oxygen saturation (SaO2) on room air is about 97 - 98%, unless you put on a little oxygen. Do you use oxygen while and after PE? Just curious.

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