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The Physics of Water Pumping

Originally Posted by pinstripeee
Hi guys, to address your comment about heat Roots, I always use a heat sock, this is really important. I got an old sock and stuffed it with dry rice, then heat in microwave for 3 minutes. I use it for pumping, extending and clamping, religiously.
Austfred, I don’t have any problem with the glans being exposed to pressure while in the pump, it swells up, but never had any blisters or other problems.

I guess the sleeve will never totally match water for lack of expansion, as it does have some give, but of course once the sleeve (and penis inside) expand to totally fill the tube (2.25” in my case) then there is no further expansion possible anyway.
Once this point is reached, I suppose the tunica can creep out slowly, but edema is reduced? I suppose if my girth gains continue, I just need to go up a size in tube, although my wife might need to call a halt before I get to this point.
I should mention an important point here too - I have recently started slowing down the pump motor so it takes a lot longer (30 -60 secs) to reach the peak of the cycle. I have found this to be very beneficial to reducing edema and increasing the feeling of internal pressure or ache.
I think the combination of slower depressure increase, which can be precisely controlled with the Mr Fantastic, along with the use of the sleeve, have helped give me a sudden boost in gains.
I find that if I tweak my methods to keep finding the “ache”, which goes hand-in-hand with greater expansion, then I can find new gains. Just need to make sure that edema doesn’t increase too.
It seems that longer time in the tube, with a slower tunica expansion, slower than edema build-up, is working for me. And the sleeve lets me achieve this without having to switch to water pumping.
If I was starting again though, I would definitely go for a water pump, although I do appreciate the relative ease of air pumping.

I think slowing down the motor was a good move. Prolonged stretches are always more effective for permanent expansion/elongation. Going as slow on the increasing side of a dynamic/cyclic/progressive pump as is still both comfortable and safe will certainly yield better results. Also, increasing your time doing this protocol should have that effect as well. It seems like you are noticing this now by making those changes to your routine. Great job.

One question: when you refer to ‘slower tunica expansion, slower than edema buildup’ are you suggesting that you want your tunica to expand slower than you get fluid buildup?

Originally Posted by mo1258
Good discussion here - thanks to all!

The original topic of this thread “the physics of water pumping” - I think Rootsnatty has done a good job explaining the theory. This thread along with many others seems to strongly suggest, theoretically and anecdotally, that water pumping results in less edema, i.e. excess lymph fluid in the superficial tissue. I personally believe that edema is counterproductive to PE and EQ - so, less excess lymph fluid is a good thing.

Regarding “dynamic pumping” or “cyclic pumping” - the concept has been around for at least 10 years, I have been doing it for 5 years. I wish a new thread would spin off from the current thread as the topics are quite different.

@Austfred - just a thought: your “wantsmore stretches” (using golf weights) might be traumatizing the lymphatic vessels therefore preventing lymph fluid from leaving the penis - recall that the lymph system has no pump like the heart for blood vessels.

Start a dynamic/cyclic pumping thread then. ;) I’ll check it out and contribute what I can.

You could be right about the lymph thing, hard to say for sure with the little we know about all the variables.

wantsmores issue

Mo, Rootsnatty

Originally Posted by mo1258
@Austfred - just a thought: your “wantsmore stretches” (using golf weights) might be traumatizing the lymphatic vessels therefore preventing lymph fluid from leaving the penis - recall that the lymph system has no pump like the heart for blood vessels.

[QUOTE=rootsnatty]
You could be right about the lymph thing, hard to say for sure with the little we know about all the variables.

I was doing my wantsmores in the morning before extending and then the pumping in the evening. It is quite possible the wantsmores were doing something to the the lymphatic vessels but I doubt they were preventing lymph fluid from leaving the penis. I suspect it is something simpler. The wantsmores probably did traumatize the lymphatic vessels thus making it easier it easier for migrate into the outer penis tissues under vacuum. There was no bruising etc just swelling in funny places (ie it was in isolated areas) which subsides in 24 hours. One example was a swelling half way along the shaft on one side.

The interesting thingis that the edemas only came on when I moved from air to water pumping and upped the time of the session from 30 mins to 60 mins using similar vacuum levels.

I apologize for somehow getting this thread somewhat away from the physics of water pumping. I suggest there is physics involved in dynamic pumping and issues which deal with that and the differences between water and air pumping could stay here but other issues related to dynamic pumping could be posted in HomerJS’s thread on dynamic stretching which is about this subject. There is also Mr Fantastic’s thread on his devices where we should really be talking about his units.

Anyway the recent discussion has been very useful to me

Regards
Austfred

Originally Posted by austfred
Mo, Rootsnatty

I was doing my wantsmores in the morning before extending and then the pumping in the evening. It is quite possible the wantsmores were doing something to the the lymphatic vessels but I doubt they were preventing lymph fluid from leaving the penis. I suspect it is something simpler. The wantsmores probably did traumatize the lymphatic vessels thus making it easier it easier for migrate into the outer penis tissues under vacuum. There was no bruising etc just swelling in funny places (ie it was in isolated areas) which subsides in 24 hours. One example was a swelling half way along the shaft on one side.

The interesting thingis that the edemas only came on when I moved from air to water pumping and upped the time of the session from 30 mins to 60 mins using similar vacuum levels.

I apologize for somehow getting this thread somewhat away from the physics of water pumping. I suggest there is physics involved in dynamic pumping and issues which deal with that and the differences between water and air pumping could stay here but other issues related to dynamic pumping could be posted in HomerJS’s thread on dynamic stretching which is about this subject. There is also Mr Fantastic’s thread on his devices where we should really be talking about his units.

Anyway the recent discussion has been very useful to me

Regards
Austfred

When do threads ever stay on subject? ;) The good part is we are getting lots of good discussion in about these things.

I would guess that your fulcrum stretches are probably causing something more along the lines of what you are suggesting, but there just isn’t any way to be sure.

Yes, slowing the motor down has given me a lot better expansion I think. At least expansion that is from the tunica, which is accompanied by an internal ache, rather than fluid, which just seems to give a kind of surface skin stretching pain.

When I was pumping without the sleeve, and using a faster pump speed, reaching maximum depressure per cycle faster, I would fill the tube faster, but it was mostly fluid. Now I try to slow down expansion, so that the tunica creeping out is giving expansion, rather than a whole lot of fluid.

So yes, the goal is to get solid tunica expansion, but at a slower pace than fluid build up. Seems to be working..

I’d quite like to try water pumping to see how it feels in comparison.

Originally Posted by pinstripeee
So yes, the goal is to get solid tunica expansion, but at a slower pace than fluid build up.

Sorry if I’m being dense here, but explain just the above statement. It seems like you would want the tunica to expand faster than you accumulate fluid under the skin. So more of the total expansion is due to tunica stretch than fluid buildup.

Originally Posted by rootsnatty
I think slowing down the motor was a good move. Prolonged stretches are always more effective for permanent expansion/elongation. Going as slow on the increasing side of a dynamic/cyclic/progressive pump as is still both comfortable and safe will certainly yield better results. Also, increasing your time doing this protocol should have that effect as well. It seems like you are noticing this now by making those changes to your routine. Great job.

So the lessons here are?

1. Slow down the pump speed as much as possible to get a longer stretch on the pump up cycle. This will also involve reducing the leak circuit so the pump down cycle also increases. I can see me trying for 5 min cycles (up and down).

2. The silicone sleeve is useful particularly in light of 1 above as I suspect longer pump cycles are more likely to cause fluid build up which the sleeve is good at preventing

3 Use warmth regardless of whether you are air or water pumping

4 Then we get back to the original topic water pumping and presumably the difference between water and air pumping and also with and without the silicone sleeve.

The lack of compressibility of water is a factor as would be what happens at the contact between the water (vs air) and the skin. Suspect water is kinder especially to the glans

Austfred

Originally Posted by austfred
So the lessons here are?

1. Slow down the pump speed as much as possible to get a longer stretch on the pump up cycle. This will also involve reducing the leak circuit so the pump down cycle also increases. I can see me trying for 5 min cycles (up and down).

2. The silicone sleeve is useful particularly in light of 1 above as I suspect longer pump cycles are more likely to cause fluid build up which the sleeve is good at preventing

3 Use warmth regardless of whether you are air or water pumping

4 Then we get back to the original topic water pumping and presumably the difference between water and air pumping and also with and without the silicone sleeve.

The lack of compressibility of water is a factor as would be what happens at the contact between the water (vs air) and the skin. Suspect water is kinder especially to the glans

Austfred

I think if you increase the time of your cycles you should play it safe and reduce your upper pressure limit by a good bit initially at least.

Concerning point 4 I’ve been playing around with a vac hanger the last few days and finding it ok, however yesterday I tried filling it with water making sure there were no air bubbles and the grip it gave was way better and more comfortable.

Originally Posted by capernicus1
I think if you increase the time of your cycles you should play it safe and reduce your upper pressure limit by a good bit initially at least.

Concerning point 4 I’ve been playing around with a vac hanger the last few days and finding it ok, however yesterday I tried filling it with water making sure there were no air bubbles and the grip it gave was way better and more comfortable.

capernicus1

Good points.

Not sure if I will gradually increase cycle time or reduce upper vacuum and use a much longer cycle time and then gradually build up the upper vac again.. Will certainly use the sleeve to keep the edemas at bay.

Your second point is further evidence of the benefits of water.

Okay, I’m a little late to the party here, but apparently I wasn’t convincing enough earlier and I want to make something perfectly clear:

In a traditional (static) or dynamic pumping setup, pressure and cycle frequency being equal, the only difference between air and water is the pressure gradient created by the water column. At high gauge readings there is a chance that the pressure difference in the lymph vessels could help move the lymph towards the base, but it’s probably an insignificant effect. At low readings the change in pressure due to the weight of the water is definitely significant.
But in either case compressibility has absolutely no effect.
The stress on the tunica and the rate at which edema accumulates in pumping are entirely dependent on pressure (and possibly/probably temperature, though a reduction is usually only seen with lower temps).

I would be massively surprised if someone successfully managed to cause more edema with air at 10”Hg. (I certainly can’t)

Any report of such an incidence would have to fall into one of these categories (arranged from most to least likely):
1. He hasn’t actually tested it thoroughly and is just relaying what he’s been told by someone else.
2. He has experienced it with low gauge readings (~3”Hg) where the pressure rise due to the mass of the water is significant and is just assuming that the same thing happens at higher pressure drops. This would be the logical solution for someone who isn’t particularly familiar with fluid dynamics.
3. He really did experience a difference but it’s because of the temperature of the water/the water column actually having a larger effect at high vacuums than expected/other external factor (hydration etc.).
4. He has learned to defy the laws of physics.

Certainly, some other factors could affect edema, such as not maintaining the pressure (which is more likely to occur in water), but all else being equal, there is no difference between water and air as a medium.


Last edited by Serenity73 : 09-13-2014 at .

Originally Posted by austfred
I suspect it is something simpler. The wantsmores probably did traumatize the lymphatic vessels thus making it easier it easier for migrate into the outer penis tissues under vacuum. There was no bruising etc just swelling in funny places (ie it was in isolated areas) which subsides in 24 hours. One example was a swelling half way along the shaft on one side.

Fluid removal is a balancing act between the capillary pressure (and reverse pressure from osmosis pulling fluid back into the capillary), interstitial pressure and pressure inside the lymph vessels. It’s very possible that you somehow temporarily obstructed the lymph vessels. On the other hand, you could also have caused a larger influx of fluid to the interstitial space. This could be from slight damage to the capillary or even a blockage (pure speculation), which can cause hypoxia and increase the permeability of the capillary wall.
Have you tried gently massaging the area where the fulcrum sits when you’re done? That might help.

I can’t speak about the fluid build up since I don’t get it much anymore with either of the two, but definitely there is a difference pumping with water or air. First, compressibility has an effect for sure: the pressure level is less stable with air.

Second: try to think you put your penis in the cylinder and submerge it with sand; then you make a hole on the bottom of the cylinder while it points toward the floor and let the sand slolwy falling down from the cylinder; you’ll feel the pressure evenly?

Do you pump with both medium Serenity? Are you sure you don’t notice any difference?

Originally Posted by marinera
I can’t speak about the fluid build up since I don’t get it much anymore with either of the two, but definitely there is a difference pumping with water or air. First, compressibility has an effect for sure: the pressure level is less stable with air.

Second: try to think you put your penis in the cylinder and submerge it with sand; then you make a hole on the bottom of the cylinder while it points toward the floor and let the sand slolwy falling down from the cylinder; you’ll feel the pressure evenly?

Do you pump with both medium Serenity? Are you sure you don’t notice any difference?

It’s definitely less stable because of the smaller volume change needed to change pressure in water. What I’m saying is that for equal pressure, there’s no difference.

I’m not sure what you mean with the sand example.

I pump mostly with water because of the heat benefit, but yes, I’ve done air intermittently as well. There’s a noticeable difference up to about 5”Hg for me, I suppose it would depend just how sensitive you are to pressure differences. I rarely pump between 6 and 9, but at 10”Hg I get the same amount of edema in either medium.

Originally Posted by Serenity73
Fluid removal is a balancing act between the capillary pressure (and reverse pressure from osmosis pulling fluid back into the capillary), interstitial pressure and pressure inside the lymph vessels. It’s very possible that you somehow temporarily obstructed the lymph vessels. On the other hand, you could also have caused a larger influx of fluid to the interstitial space. This could be from slight damage to the capillary or even a blockage (pure speculation), which can cause hypoxia and increase the permeability of the capillary wall.
Have you tried gently massaging the area where the fulcrum sits when you’re done? That might help.

Serenity. with wanstmores fulcrum stretches you effectively bend the penis with the fulcrum point up and down the penis shaft in 4 directions. This is done by adding donut shaped golf weigths one at a time and stretching the penis at right angles in 4 directions and then adding another and doing the same again. I stretch for 30 sec in each of the 4 positions for each weight and can use up to 6 weights so their are 24 positions. That would explain the edemas in strange positions. After stopping wantsmores for a few days I got no more edemas. When I did the wantsmores I also got no edemas if I used the silicone sleeve during pumping.

I jelq after doing an extender session which follows the wantsmores which I suppose is akin to your massage idea. I also do a quick massage immediately after extending to get the blood flowing..

My solution is to never pump after wantsmores without the silicone sleeve. The reason I raised this is that it might through some light on what causes edemas from pumping and how to minimize them in general.

fluid build up

Serenity, an afterthought

In my case I believe much of the fluid build up is in the outer layers near the skin. Particularly after an hour’s water pumping I notice my foreskin (I am uncut) is swollen (ie much thicker than usual and is much tighter on my glans especially just after pumping. Are the lymph vessels near the surface or is the vacuum forcing lymph fluid to move near the penis surface? This is much more obvious after 60 mins warm water pumping than 30 mins air pumping.

Another observation I just remembered. With air pumping my meatus had a swollen look (eg bulged out) just post pumping for a little while whereas with 60 min water pumping my meatus looks fine post pumping. That suggests water pumping is kinder to the glans.

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