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Why Bib's LOT Theory holds water

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Why Bib's LOT Theory holds water

Hopefully this thread will help people understand the basis for Bib’s LOT Theory and how it can help them to determine what angles of force are most efficient.

Bib’s LOT Theory:

The shorter, tighter or higher the ligs, the higher the angle required to lose ‘tugback’ when stretching the penis and kegaling at the same time.

The shorter, tighter, or higher the ligs, the more ‘inner’ penis, and the more quick, easy gains which are possible, and possibly the more total gains which are possible as the ligs are lengthened.

The longer, looser, or lower the ligs, the less ‘inner’ penis, and the harder the gains and possibly less total gains which are possible.

The longer time spent PEing, the lower the angle at which tugback is lost due to a lengthening of the ligs. This assumes PE is performed at lower angles, at least somewhat, by all subjects.

The less time spent PEing, the higher the angle at which tugback is lost because ligs have not been stretched.

For those with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs, a lengthening of the ligs correlates with a lowering of angle of tugback loss, and an increase in penis length.

What follows is my understanding of the basis for Bib’s LOT Theory. This comes from much reading of Bib’s descriptions of LOT as applied to men seeking his advise as found here on Thunders and on his Bib Hanger Support Site.

There are 4 spacial points to consider in developing this discussion. I will label them as follows:

Ligaments - There are actually two anatomical ligamentous processes, the suspensory ligaments and fundiform ligaments. We will combine them for the sake of this discussion as the ligaments. Both attach at Pubic Symphisis (PS). The suspensory ligament fans out in a vertical plane attaching the PS with the outer tunica. The
Fundiform ligament is a sling which wraps around the outer tunica. Both support the outer tunica by holding it against the PB.

It is very important for the sake of this discussion that one understands that both ligaments are more of a ligament fascia than a single bundle of elastic and collogen fibers. Talking about or modeling the ligaments like they are one homogeneous link is a gross oversimplification.

Tunica Anchors - This is the attachment of the inner tunica to the pelvic bone (ischial rami). It is anatomically referred to as the crura, but there are actually two identical processes called crus, each of which attaches on either side of the pelvic bone.

Glans - The glans is simply the end of the outer shaft.

Reference point - The reference point is used for the sake of discussion as the point along the tunica where the ligaments attach. On one side is the outer tunica and on the other is the inner tunica.

Discussion
——————-

When a man kegels, the tunica is pulled back toward the anchors. This action is transmitted to the glans unless the reference point is held fixed in space.

So, while standing, when the outer tunica is made slightly taut and swung up such that it points in a 12:00 (straight up) position, the ligaments are collapsed along the PB such that the reference point can slide freely against the PB while kegeling. This movement when felt at the glans is called tugback.

As the angle of the outer tunica is moved toward 9:00 (straight out) the degree of tugback can be affected depending on the mans anatomy. For men with short, tight, or high ligament fibers which hold a large length of the outer tunica tightly against the PB, the reference point can be held fixed in space by the ligaments such that no tugback is felt at the glans when this man kegels. This mans LOT or Loss of Tugback is said to be 9:00 since this is the angle of the outer tunica.

Keep in mind that the inner tunica is still pulling against the reference point but this force is now being absorbed in the ligament fibers which attach the PB to the tunica anchors. Lets call these the target ligaments. This also suggests that there is some slack in the inner tunica between the anchors and the PB. These are potential gains referred to as lig gains.

If these target ligaments are made longer, then the lig gains can be realized as penis length gains. i.e. more inner tunica will be allowed to be expressed as penis length.

The most efficient manner in which these target ligaments can be stressed is to pull them in the direction which directs the entire force on their attachment points on the PB. This angle is referred to as the Between The Cheek) BTC angle. This is when a man pulls the outer shaft in the same direction as the tugback pull toward the tunca anchors. This can be achieved by standing and then reaching between your legs from behind and pulling on your outer shaft directly back. Your shaft would be BTC.

By pulling in the BTC direction, the ligaments are made to resist the pull force with the least amount of tunica involvement. This separation of target tissues is called divide and conquer. i.e applying the force over the smallest amount of ligament or tunica as possible in order to stretch them easier.

As one continues to stretch these target ligs in the BTC angle then more ligaments become involved. Even the ligaments that were not initially target ligaments get stretched in the BTC angle.

At some point, several other anatomical changes are indicated.
1) When the penis is flaccid, the exit point of the outer tunica from the body has dropped lower in the groinal region. This is a visual indicator.
2) The amount of inner tunica is converted to outer tunica. This indicator can be palpated as the distance between the shaft exit point and the point of convergence of the two crus. The inner tunica has a limit to how much can be expressed.

Eventually all of the ligaments are significantly long such that even when the tunica angle is 6:00 (straight down) there is no loss of tugback. This is because at the straight down angle the outer tunica is being pulled taut directly against the forward-most part of the tunica anchors. There is slack in the inner tunica so it moves but the kegel has no effect in moving the outer tunica. This is because the inner tunica is at 90 degrees to the outer tunica so the force cannot be transmitted into tugback.

Ok so all lig gains have been made. Now if further length gains are to be made the tunica has to be lengthened. Now that the ligaments have been made sufficiently long, the same divide and conquer strategy can be applied to the tunica. By pulling at angles with the least amount of ligament involvement, the tunica can be isolated.

Furthermore there are strategies which allow for the tunica to be further divided such that more force can be applied over a smaller number of tunica fibers.

These are the fulcrum strategies.

Years ago I plateaued and stopped gaining. I gained nothing during 6 months of very heavy work. I had never hung BTC, just SD and SO. I did not apply the LOT Theory at that time because BTC was very uncomfortable. I thought that SD was enough and ignored my LOT of 8:00.

I restarted my hanging last fall with BTC exclusively. I got used to the BTC angle and slowly worked up the level of weight. I have been gaining 1/8” per month BPFSL. I have gained 1/4” BPEL. Now my LOT is almost 6:00 so soon I will pursue tunica and fulcrum work and do maintenance lig work.

sheLovesIt

Tremendous discussion sheLovesIt. Would I be putting it too simply to say the importance of your findings is isolation?

I drew this conclusion from,

Originally Posted by sheLovesIt

By pulling in the BTC direction, the ligaments are made to resist the pull force with the least amount of tunica involvement. This separation of target tissues is called divide and conquer. i.e applying the force over the smallest amount of ligament or tunica as possible in order to stretch them easier.


Last edited by PatientlyGrowin : 03-08-2012 at .

Originally Posted by PatientlyGrowin
Would I be putting it too simply to say the importance of your findings is isolation?


No. Not too simply… exactly. Isolation is akin to “divide and conquer”, a phrase that Bib uses frequently.
Thanks,
I may have to modify some wording for clarity. I whipped this up kind of hastily.

sheLovesIt

SheLovesIt,

I’m glad you’re gaining. The lot simulator is just a model that was meant to demonstrate the basic mechanism of LOT. I originally built it to convince myself (and others) that LOT Theory was correct. But once I started playing with the simulator, I couldn’t see any strong relationship between LOT and lig length. The model didn’t support the theory.

Also, I found some of Bib’s anatomical assumptions to be incorrect, like where he assumes the pubic bone to be nearly vertical, when in all anatomy books I’ve seen (and my own mris—posted somewhere here), it’s closer to horizontal.

As a matter of geometry, LOT Theory didn’t hold up, at least as far as I could tell. That said, if using a disciplined approach like Bib describes works for you, don’t let my skepticism stand in your way.


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

Thanks ModestoMan.
Your simulator helped me to understand the physiologic process better.
If there is one thing I have learned about Bib, it is to never underestimate him.
He might be short on technical descriptions but for some reason he has it right most of the time.

Yep, the new gains are making this adventure exciting. BTC every day. I am not even hanging heavy.

>As a matter of geometry, LOT Theory didn’t hold up, at least as far as I could tell.<
I will read your LOT Simulator Thread carefully and do some sims. What language is your AP?

Good to hear from you!

sheLovesIt

Just plain JavaScript. Nice to be here (never really left).


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

Who cares about “LOT” and “tugback”. We care whether there is inner penis that is available to be exposed. On many there is.

Originally Posted by djrobins
Who cares about “LOT” and “tugback”. We care whether there is inner penis that is available to be exposed. On many there is.


djrobins,

How do you decide what angle to hang?
Do you have an indicator for inner penis availability? Please share.

From what I have read, most guys need to start out by hanging BTC to stretch the ligs. But when do you switch over to upper angles for tunica work? … when you haven’t gained for some period of time? i.e No more inner penis?

I am ok with that as it works toward lig maintenance. But some guys have a timetable, I don’t.
I palpate my junk alot and from what I feel… the LOT concept is right on the money.

Why do you think it is bogus?

sheLovesIt

Are we completely over thinking this stuff?

Sure, pulling in one direction or the other will target different ligaments, but when we are erect and “using” our penis it is usually around the 6:00 range. (Yes it will vary, but for the sake of argument I’m using 6) So for me, my “length” is determined by the position and flexibility while in the 6:00 position because that’s the position I’m in when I measure and the position I’m in 95% of the time when I’m using my penis.

Shouldn’t we be targeting whatever is limiting us in the direction that we use the most?

Or another way to look at it:
If I was trying to increase my flexibility to touch my toes would I do side bends or bend backwards? No.

Pull it in the direction that you want to use it in, that just makes sense to me.


Keep an open mind and a closed wallet... unless it\'s open to making a donation!

I think that it really depends on your kegal strength. I have been kegaling since a very young age and I have no loss of tugback whatsoever-even pulling my unit passed my balls, and I gained well over an inch in no time.


Reject the basic assumptions of civilizations, especially the importance of material possessions.

Originally Posted by cantlook
Are we completely over thinking this stuff?

Sure, pulling in one direction or the other will target different ligaments, but when we are erect and “using” our penis it is usually around the 6:00 range. (Yes it will vary, but for the sake of argument I’m using 6) So for me, my “length” is determined by the position and flexibility while in the 6:00 position because that’s the position I’m in when I measure and the position I’m in 95% of the time when I’m using my penis.

Shouldn’t we be targeting whatever is limiting us in the direction that we use the most?

Or another way to look at it:
If I was trying to increase my flexibility to touch my toes would I do side bends or bend backwards? No.

Pull it in the direction that you want to use it in, that just makes sense to me.


That should have read 9:00 not 6:00.

Sorry ;)


Keep an open mind and a closed wallet... unless it\'s open to making a donation!

I’ve been doing a lot of bundled a-stretches lately as I’m trying to hit my tunica but reading this makes me think that I should just do bundled upward stretches instead.

My point was you have as much inner penis as you have. Mandigo for example almost has none, wiyh nearly all the penis from the root exposed. Possibly natural, possibly from a special surgery. If you examine the penis carefully when erect, you can determine how much inner penis there is. Tugback or lot was an attempt at this but you can see and feel it by observing when erect.

The Corpora Cavernosa Penis form the greater part of the substance of the penis. For their anterior three-fourths they lie in intimate apposition with one another, but behind they diverge in the form of two tapering processes, known as the crura,which are firmly connected to the rami of the pubic arch. Traced from behind forward, each crus begins by a blunt-pointed process in front of the tuberosity of the ischium. Just before it meets its fellow it presents a slight enlargement, named by Kobelt the bulb of the corpus cavernosum penis. Beyond this point the crus undergoes a constriction and merges into the corpus cavernosum proper, which retains a uniform diameter to its anterior end. Each corpus cavernosum penis ends abruptly in a rounded extremity some distance from the point of the penis.
……………………….

The root (radix penis) of the penis is triradiate in form, consisting of the diverging crura, one on either side, and the median urethral bulb. Each crus is covered by the Ischiocavernosus, while the bulb is surrounded by the Bulbocavernosus. The root of the penis lies in the perineum between the inferior fascia of the urogenital diaphragm and the fascia of Colles. In addition to being attached to the fasciæ and the pubic rami, it is bound to the front of the symphysis pubis by the fundiform and suspensory ligaments.
…”
http://education.yahoo.com/referenc…cts/subject/262

You can’t pull out the inner penis. That’s why LOT theory doesn’t makes sense either.


Last edited by marinera : 03-09-2012 at .

djrobins,
Maybe I am just old school. I thought that the first goal was to lengthen the ligs so that two things would/could happen.

1) Expose as much inner penis as possible that is being held against the PS (High LOT, high exit point, high erection angle), and
2) By lengthening the ligs you could then pursue tunica stretch without involving the ligs (divide and conquer) by using the upper angles and/or fulcrums.

I agree that you can palpate the inner penis and determine what length it is, however I don’t think that anyone can say that based on that you will gain a particular amount. Those inner penis gains are best made from lig stretch.

What about tunica stretch? Do you believe in tunica gains? Or do you think gains only come from freeing up the inner penis?

I keep an open mind. I listen to theories and what guys say has worked for them, then I design my PE routine around the parts that make the most sense to me.

Isn’t Mandingo incredible? I have around 4 of the “Chasin the Big Ones” DVD’s. There is one scene where Mandingo goes soft because he gets a phone call while a babe is giving him oral. Guess what, Mandigo is kind of a grower. She was able to deep throat all his junk when he got soft.

In other scenes I have seen his cock get bent very easily. It looks kind of inflatable. That would rip most guys apart. He is probably one of those guys that was blessed with a thin tunica. I am pretty sure that these guys use Viagra. I have an old vid where Lexington Steele had a tough time staying hard.

And yes they have a very small amount of inner penis as I have stopped the action to check. I believe that both men are naturally big.

sheLovesIt

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