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Testing LOT Theory

Originally Posted by bigblackstick

But I have a low LOT….shoudl’nt my primary focus be OTS and SO?

That strategy presumes that low LOT means low lig potential. I know that’s what conventional wisdom would predict, but I think I’ve given people reason to doubt it. For all I know, you still have decent lig potential. You can see on the simulator that somewhat with a LOT of 5:30 (extremely low) can still gain by lig stretching. Plug in 84 for inner penis length and leave everything else at default values. You can plainly see that you can still gain by lengthening your ligs and/or lowering your lig attachment point on your pubic symphysis.

I know this goes against what we’ve all learned, but I believe it’s true.


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Originally Posted by ModestoMan
That strategy presumes that low LOT means low lig potential. I know that’s what conventional wisdom would predict, but I think I’ve given people reason to doubt it. For all I know, you still have decent lig potential. You can see on the simulator that somewhat with a LOT of 5:30 (extremely low) can still gain by lig stretching. Plug in 84 for inner penis length and leave everything else at default values. You can plainly see that you can still gain by lengthening your ligs and/or lowering your lig attachment point on your pubic symphysis.

I know this goes against what we’ve all learned, but I believe it’s true.

So IOW, don’t totally rule out BTC and lower hanging angles?


"The world is a one way mirror. What they see, is what you see. What do you want people to see?" Women. If you're going to swing...swing for the fucking fences. "The reasonable man insists on adapting to the world. The unreasonable man persists on having the world adapt to him. Therefore, all progress in the world is made by the unreasonable man." "Success is not a surprise."

Exactly. Don’t rule it out.


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I’ve read your LOT simulator, dont take this the wrong way, could you summarize in plain english in a few sentences or a paragraph what it is its supposed to do? It’s a lot of info to digest and frankly I still can’t figure out what it is you are trying to convey except that LOT is not the end all be all right? I’m having trouble understanding what the diagram is supposed to illusrate, especially after plugging in values. Thanks


"The world is a one way mirror. What they see, is what you see. What do you want people to see?" Women. If you're going to swing...swing for the fucking fences. "The reasonable man insists on adapting to the world. The unreasonable man persists on having the world adapt to him. Therefore, all progress in the world is made by the unreasonable man." "Success is not a surprise."

The simulator is supposed to model the way the flaccid penis responds to tension. It’s like a physical model of the penis, done with posts and strings, except it’s done electronically on your computer screen.

You can do the same thing physically by using one fixed post to represent the ischiopubic ramus (where the shaft attaches to the pelvis) and another to represent the pubic bone, where the ligs attach. You can use one string to represent the shaft and another string to represent the ligs. The lig “string” attaches to the shaft “string” somewhere along its length, and divides the shaft into an “inner penis” and an “outer penis.”

Kegeling pulls back on the shaft “string,” and thus causes tugback. If the end of the shaft “string” (glans) moves when you kegel (i.e., when you click the Kegel button), then you have tugback at whatever tugging angle you’re using. At some angle, tugback disappears. This is the LOT.

I found that LOT can be computed directly from the numbers plugged into the model. THis value is now displayed at the top of the graphic. By changing the different input values (lig length, inner penis length, etc.), you can immediately see how LOT changes. You don’t have to sweep through the angles.

For instance, as I’ve described above, you can set the inner penis to 85mm. This moves the spot where the lig “string” attaches to the shaft “string” back from its default value of 100mm. Assuming you don’t change anything else, your LOT should change to about 5:30—very low. But you can still see there’s room for growth by stretching the ligs. Just try lengthening the ligs or moving the attachment point from High to Low. Watch the outer penis grow.

I believe this model shows how LOT works, even though it’s very simple. I think it also shows that LOT does not say a “lot” about lig potential. Many times, you can still gain by stretching the ligs, even if you have a low LOT. I hope that’s clearer.


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This is a great thread! I have read it over many many times, and I finally got the jist of it… Definitely worthy of the Article’s section.

MM,
I realize that you haven’t posted on this thread in nearly eight months, but a few posts back you said you were going to update the LOT simulator:

Originally Posted by MM
I’m making slow but steady progress. I’m now simulating different sizes, shapes, and angles of pubic bones, and multiple lig bundles (10, to be precise). I’ve moved the anchor point to the ischiopubic ramus forward to agree with an anatomy reference I found that actually showed this.

Currently, I’m working out how the different bundles orient themselves with different tugging angles. I’ll get there eventually.

Did you discontinue this project or just get a little side tracked? I would love to know your modern opinion on the subject.

Thanks, and again Great article!

- remek


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Remek,

It was a combination of getting majorly sidetracked with work and finding myself facing a math problem that I didn’t know how to solve. I finally decided to simply my way around the math problem, but by then the phone started ringing, and one thing led to another.

I may have some time to revisit this soon, although I expect the revision will be anticlimax by then.


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Ahhh, yes time is always a killer. There is never enough of it, but for some reason, at some points we want the time to go by quicker. Quite a paradox, eh?

Anways. I have a few questions/concerns/statements that I am confused on. Maybe you can clear them up for me.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
ASSERTION 2. The shorter, tighter, or higher the ligs, the more ‘inner’ penis, and the more quick, easy gains which are possible, and possibly the more total gains which are possible as the ligs are lengthened. The longer, looser, or lower the ligs, the less ‘inner’ penis, and the harder the gains and possibly less total gains which are possible.

SIMULATION SUGGESTS: Partly true, partly false. It is clear at face value that the length or tightness of the ligaments (as represented in the model) is not relevant to the amount of inner penis.

Since the model is 2D it cannot display lig tightness. Therefore tightness is being represented as length, correct?
Now, I am confused with the lig length part of this diagram. Sometimes, when I try to change lig length, it tells me I cannot because “The inner penis is not long enough.”

This happened under the following conditions:

Everything was set to default, except Inner penis length and lig length.
At first, lig length was 15, and inner penis length was 85.

I then changed lig length to 5, and it gave me the “error.” This would mean the inner penis length would have to be bigger for the lig length to be shorter. And in other words, it would show a correlation with shorter ligs, more inner penis. I tested this out:

I kept the lig length at 5, and changed the inner penis length from 85 to 100.

Sure enough, it worked. This is opposite of the statement above.

I might be doing something wrong, so if I am feel free to help me out.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
It is rather the attachment point of the ligaments to the shaft which is relevant. This is by definition. The attachment point along the shaft defines which part of the shaft is inner penis and which part is outer penis.

I don’t believe this to be true. As far as my eyes can see, the ligaments are able attach to the outer penis. In fact, bib advocates this. How far do they attach on the outer penis? Well, we don’t know. I guess it depends on a variety of factors. Attachment point, length of ligs, tightness of ligs, and LOT (if one is to believe in LOT) all come into play.

I attached a drawing that I found of Bib’s. It is on this forum somewhere, but I couldn’t re-find it. Anyways, the drawing shows someone with a Low LOT and ligaments that attach on the outer penis.

P.S. You are going to have to turn the diagram around because I had crop it and move it 90 degrees because it was too big the other way.

Feedback/questions are appreciated.

Attached Images
ligsandtunica2flex (2).jpg
(57.0 KB, 137 views)

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It’s been awhile, Remek, but I’ll try to get my brain back into this gear.

Originally Posted by remek

Since the model is 2D it cannot display lig tightness. Therefore tightness is being represented as length, correct?

Lig tightness is not really a relevant concept here. Normally, the ligs are under only negligible tension. The important factor is their length. They may be under slight tension during a LOT test, but I don’t think that tension is determative of LOT. It’s just something you need to apply to overcome the elasticity in the tissues so that LOT can be measured.

I hope that makes sense.

Originally Posted by remek

Now, I am confused with the lig length part of this diagram. Sometimes, when I try to change lig length, it tells me I cannot because “The inner penis is not long enough.”

One of the model’s simplifications is that the ligs are represented as a single line. The lig-line attaches to the pubic bone at one location and to the shaft at one other location. This is perhaps too simple, but it’s how the model works.

One of the basic rules for this system is that the inner penis must be long enough to meet the junction between the lig-line and the shaft. If it isn’t, the inner penis becomes separated from the outer penis. This is physically impossible (short of a horrible accident :) ). Since the two parts of the penis always have to be connected, the software interprets this condition as an error.

You can get past this by extending the inner penis, so that it is long enough to reach the junction with the ligs. Also, you can make the ligs longer, so they can effectively reach farther back to meet the short inner penis.

Originally Posted by remek

This happened under the following conditions:

Everything was set to default, except Inner penis length and lig length.

At first, lig length was 15, and inner penis length was 85.

I then changed lig length to 5, and it gave me the “error.” This would mean the inner penis length would have to be bigger for the lig length to be shorter. And in other words, it would show a correlation with shorter ligs, more inner penis. I tested this out:

I kept the lig length at 5, and changed the inner penis length from 85 to 100.

Sure enough, it worked. This is opposite of the statement above.

I might be doing something wrong, so if I am feel free to help me out.

I think I see what you’re talking about. You’re saying that the simulation does not agree with my conclusion that “the length or tightness of the ligaments (as represented in the model) is not relevant to the amount of inner penis.”

Under the conditions that you’ve set up, yes, I agree with you. You’ve found a condition in which shorter ligs are definitely associated with a longer inner penis. Nice job!

On the other hand, I don’t know anything about penile anatomy that requires the conditions you set forth. In fact, I think it’s just the opposite. LOT tests are done with the penis stretched out. But if the ligaments have to “reach back” to hit the junction on the shaft when the penis is stretched, what happens when the penis is flaccid?

Maybe I just need more coffee. The idea is that the conditions with which you programmed the model are unlikely to occur because they require that the inner penis be under constant tension even when no LOT test is being conducted. I don’t think the penis works this way. When a guy performing a LOT test releases the tension and lets his penis hang normally, it tends to retract into the body. Retraction occurs in both the outer penis and inner penis, I believe. But if the ligs are already reaching back as far as they can when the penis is stretched, what happens when the penis is released? In the scenario you’ve set up, the inner penis wouldn’t retract. I don’t think that’s right.

I think the more likely scenario is that inner penis has considerable “slack.” It can extend forward without being pinned back by the susp. lig. It can also retract without stressing the ligament.

Originally Posted by remek

I don’t believe this to be true. As far as my eyes can see, the ligaments are able attach to the outer penis. In fact, bib advocates this. How far do they attach on the outer penis? Well, we don’t know. I guess it depends on a variety of factors. Attachment point, length of ligs, tightness of ligs, and LOT (if one is to believe in LOT) all come into play.

In the model, it is the junction point between the lig-line and the shaft that separates the shaft into an inner penis and an outer penis. Therefore, parts of the inner penis could possibly fall outside the body. “Outer penis” does not mean outside the body. It just means beyond the lig attachment point. This is not inconsistent with what Bib was saying, I believe.

Originally Posted by remek

I attached a drawing that I found of Bib’s. It is on this forum somewhere, but I couldn’t re-find it. Anyways, the drawing shows someone with a Low LOT and ligaments that attach on the outer penis.


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 02-07-2006 at .

MM,

Thank you for the reply. Again, I think this is a great piece of work and you obviously put a lot of time into it. It shows what type of person you are.
You get things done.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
It’s been awhile, Remek, but I’ll try to get my brain back into this gear.

Lig tightness is not really a relevant concept here. Normally, the ligs are under only negligible tension. The important factor is their length. They may be under slight tension during a LOT test, but I don’t think that tension is determative of LOT. It’s just something you need to apply to overcome the elasticity in the tissues so that LOT can be measured.

I hope that makes sense.

If I understand LOT theory correctly, I believe lig tightness is a very relevant concept. In fact, I think its important in any PE theory that involves the ligaments being stretched. Although, in PE theory there tends to be a correlation with tighter ligs being shorter. So in the case of your simulator we can pass off lig tightness for length.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

One of the model’s simplifications is that the ligs are represented as a single line. The lig-line attaches to the pubic bone at one location and to the shaft at one other location. This is perhaps too simple, but it’s how the model works.

One of the basic rules for this system is that the inner penis must be long enough to meet the junction between the lig-line and the shaft. If it isn’t, the inner penis becomes separated from the outer penis. This is physically impossible (short of a horrible accident :) ). Since the two parts of the penis always have to be connected, the software interprets this condition as an error.

You can get past this by extending the inner penis, so that it is long enough to reach the junction with the ligs. Also, you can make the ligs longer, so they can effectively reach farther back to meet the short inner penis.

Exactly. I might be seeing this all wrong, but it seems to me that your simulator is in agreement with Assertion # 2 of the LOT theory.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

I think I see what you’re talking about. You’re saying that the simulation does not agree with my conclusion that “the length or tightness of the ligaments (as represented in the model) is not relevant to the amount of inner penis.”

Under the conditions that you’ve set up, yes, I agree with you. You’ve found a condition in which shorter ligs are definitely associated with a longer inner penis. Nice job!



I tried the same test multiple times (with different numbers each time) and I came up with the same error.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

On the other hand, I don’t know anything about penile anatomy that requires the conditions you set forth. In fact, I think it’s just the opposite. LOT tests are done with the penis stretched out. But if the ligaments have to “reach back” to hit the junction on the shaft when the penis is stretched, what happens when the penis is flaccid?

Sorry man, but I don’t understand what you mean.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

Maybe I just need more coffee. The idea is that the conditions with which you programmed the model are unlikely to occur because they require that the inner penis be under constant tension even when no LOT test is being conducted. I don’t think the penis works this way. When a guy performing a LOT test releases the tension and lets his penis hang normally, it tends to retract into the body. Retraction occurs in both the outer penis and inner penis, I believe. But if the ligs are already reaching back as far as they can when the penis is stretched, what happens when the penis is released? In the scenario you’ve set up, the inner penis wouldn’t retract. I don’t think that’s right.

I’m still confused. What I’m basically saying is that two things happen when we make “lig gains.”
1) The ligs are stretched/lowered
2) The inner penis “comes out” (i.e. turns into outer penis) as a side effect of the lowered ligs.

The model doesn’t control for this.
Here, plug in these numbers — Everything normal except:
Low attachment point
100 Inner penis length
and 15 ligament length (standard on the model).

Look at the position of the penis. Pay attention to where it is located on the pubic bone.

Now, change the ligament length to 50. This is rather much, but it is to demonstrate the affect that the simulator is claiming.
Now look at the position of the penis. That doesn’t seem right. If I am looking at this correctly, then the simulator is suggesting that the fat pad grows when ligaments are stretched. The fat pad probably doesn’t enlarge when the ligaments are stretched. Hehe. There is also the chance that I am doing this all wrong.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan

In the model, it is the junction point between the lig-line and the shaft that separates the shaft into an inner penis and an outer penis. Therefore, parts of the inner penis could possibly fall outside the body. “Outer penis” does not mean outside the body. It just means beyond the lig attachment point. This is not inconsistent with what Bib was saying, I believe.

I believe outer penis to be outside the body. Real penis is outer penis. I think this is what Bib means too, but I’m not certain. If you check out the pic I attached above, then you will see the example Low LOT has ligaments well down the shaft.

I am pretty sure Bib means outer penis to be outside the body. If he didn’t, then inner penis probably wouldn’t become shorter. I will ask him about this, though.


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Originally Posted by remek

If I understand LOT theory correctly, I believe lig tightness is a very relevant concept. In fact, I think its important in any PE theory that involves the ligaments being stretched. Although, in PE theory there tends to be a correlation with tighter ligs being shorter. So in the case of your simulator we can pass off lig tightness for length.

“Tightness” refers to tension and has little to do with geometry in this context. For a ligament to be “tight,” it must be pulled. But why should someone’s LOT change based on tension? LOT is a matter of geometry. Ligs can have different lengths, but they cannot have different tightnesses, unless you’re pulling on them with different forces. The simulator does not “pass off” lig tightness for length. Lig tightness is simply not a relevant concept.

Originally Posted by remek

Exactly. I might be seeing this all wrong, but it seems to me that your simulator is in agreement with Assertion # 2 of the LOT theory.

Sorry man, but I don’t understand what you mean.

Perhaps you could re-read my post above. The basic idea is that, if the IP is so small that the ligs have to reach back to intersect the junction of the IP with the OP, then something is anatomically screwed up. This case suggests that the IP would not retract when the tension used to perform a LOT test was released. I think that’s wrong. Sure, you can get the model to represent this case, but it doesn’t “prove” anything except perhaps that the model can be programmed to represent unrealistic scenarios.

Originally Posted by remek

I’m still confused. What I’m basically saying is that two things happen when we make “lig gains.”

1) The ligs are stretched/lowered

2) The inner penis “comes out” (i.e. turns into outer penis) as a side effect of the lowered ligs.

That sounds right to me. I think the model shows this. But I think you need to change the attachment point on the PS to see it. I think that, when guys stretch their ligs, they’re really lowering their attachment points more than they’re lengthening the fibers of the ligament. I doubt the ligs really grow as the model shows. This is a weakness of the model, which the next revision will attempt to address (if I ever get there).

Originally Posted by remek

The model doesn’t control for this.

Here, plug in these numbers — Everything normal except:

Low attachment point

100 Inner penis length

and 15 ligament length (standard on the model).

Look at the position of the penis. Pay attention to where it is located on the pubic bone.

Now, change the ligament length to 50. This is rather much, but it is to demonstrate the affect that the simulator is claiming.

Now look at the position of the penis. That doesn’t seem right. If I am looking at this correctly, then the simulator is suggesting that the fat pad grows when ligaments are stretched. The fat pad probably doesn’t enlarge when the ligaments are stretched. Hehe. There is also the chance that I am doing this all wrong.

I think I see what you’re saying. It’s not that the fat pad grows (obviously). It’s that the ligament is stretched. In this example, the penis would essentially be held up by skin. When it is pulled down, however, it would deform the skin and stretch as shown. Now, realistically, I would bet that nobody ever has stretched the ligs this way. As I said above, it’s much more likely that that stretching the ligs has the effect of lowering the attachment point on the pubic symphysis. I doubt the ligs ever pull away from the body as shown with the adjustments you suggest. That would be BTC gone way overboard and another example of how the model can be programmed to represent things that may not happen in the physical world.

Originally Posted by remek

I believe outer penis to be outside the body. Real penis is outer penis. I think this is what Bib means too, but I’m not certain. If you check out the pic I attached above, then you will see the example Low LOT has ligaments well down the shaft.

I am pretty sure Bib means outer penis to be outside the body. If he didn’t, then inner penis probably wouldn’t become shorter. I will ask him about this, though.

It’s not a question of belief or anybody else’s definition. The simulator uses IP and OP with very specific meanings. These meanings make sense within the context of the model and help the math to work out easily. It takes another mental step to see how these definitions translate to what you might see hanging out of your body.

I hope that makes sense.


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 02-14-2006 at .

Originally Posted by modestoman

ASSERTION 2. The shorter, tighter, or higher the ligs, the more ‘inner’ penis, and the more quick, easy gains which are possible, and possibly the more total gains which are possible as the ligs are lengthened. The longer, looser, or lower the ligs, the less ‘inner’ penis, and the harder the gains and possibly less total gains which are possible.

SIMULATION SUGGESTS: Partly true, partly false. It is clear at face value that the length or tightness of the ligaments (as represented in the model) is not relevant to the amount of inner penis.

I may have been answering too narrowly above. I think that it is generally true that the higher the ligs, the more inner penis. “High” ligs is essentially the same as a “high” setting for lig attachment to the PS. Clearly, the higher the attachment of the ligs to the PS, the more length can be gained by lowering the attachment. This assumes the ligs are relatively short. I think I say this somewhere above. I’m sorry that I’ve forgotten some of the twists of this thread.

“Tightness” is irrelevant since that describes force and not geometry. Lig length is somewhat relevant, because the ligs have to be short in order to gain much length by lowering the attachment point.

If that’s the essence of your point, then I agree with you.


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Another thing to note is that the amount one can hope to gain by moving the attachment point on the PS from Hi to Lo is actually not that great, since the PS is angled at about 45-degrees. For example, if you move your attachment point back 1” along the PS, the penis only extends out 0.3” further at 9 o’clock.

This is because the attachment point moves back 0.707” further inside the body. Therefore, the 1” of movement along the PS buys you only 1”-0.707” = 0.3-ish inches of additional horizontal extension.

However, one may measure more than this using the BPEL technique, since the ruler can be applied lower on the pubic bone and thus can be pushed in further. This is why I think all BPEL measurements should be made from the most forward point of the pubic bone.


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Originally Posted by ModestoMan
I may have been answering too narrowly above. I think that it is generally true that the higher the ligs, the more inner penis. “High” ligs is essentially the same as a “high” setting for lig attachment to the PS. Clearly, the higher the attachment of the ligs to the PS, the more length can be gained by lowering the attachment. This assumes the ligs are relatively short. I think I say this somewhere above. I’m sorry that I’ve forgotten some of the twists of this thread.

“Tightness” is irrelevant since that describes force and not geometry. Lig length is somewhat relevant, because the ligs have to be short in order to gain much length by lowering the attachment point.

If that’s the essence of your point, then I agree with you.

Is it possible to have high ligs which means having a high exit point but also long ligs, or is this constellation impossible?

I assume you mean high attachment point, not high exit point. Exit point isn’t displayed by the simulator.

I think it is possible to have high, long ligs. However, people with this “constellation” probably don’t have much to gain by stretching their ligs.


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