Thunder's Place

The big penis and mens' sexual health source, increasing penis size around the world.

Paper sheds light on conditioning/deconditioning

12

Paper sheds light on conditioning/deconditioning

In a quest to break my plateau, I’ve been searching the web for insight and found this article.

http://www.vard.org/jour/00/37/2/wren2.html

The article deals with tendons and ligaments and their responses to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization. This is relevant to us because

1) we want to stretch our ligaments and tunica;
2) gains often slow because our tissues are thought to become “overconditioned;” and
3) many have proposed taking “deconditioning breaks” to allow tissues to weaken before PE is resumed.

Be sure to take a good look at Fig. 5. The figure shows how a ligament’s strength decreases with time after immobilization, and then recovers once exercise is resumed.

Strength appears to decrease to nearly 1/5 its initial value after only 3 months of immobilization. However, full strength is restored after only 2 months of remobilization.

This suggests that deconditioning periods of a couple of months should significantly reduce tissue strength, and that there is a fairly narrow window of time during which the tissues remain weakened after PE is resumed.

Here are some good nuggets from the article:

Quote
In mature animals, immobilization causes a drastic decrease in the loading, and consequently the strain stimulus, experienced by a tendon or ligament. The reduced strain stimulus leads to a rapid loss of cross-sectional area, modulus, and strength. When loading is restored through remobilization, the strain stimulus is elevated and the properties rapidly recover as the immobilization effects are reversed. Exercise can also increase the strain stimulus, leading to increases in the geometric and material properties. Similar changes occur in immature animals, and the difference between immature and mature animals can be attributed to baseline biological growth that occurs independently from mechanical loading. Strains are therefore a likely stimulus for controlling tendon and ligament adaptation both before and after maturity.

Quote
The mechanical properties of tendons and ligaments are determined by microstructural parameters including collagen fiber content, fiber orientations, and cross-link density (35). Fibroblasts change these parameters through altered biosynthetic activity stimulated by mechanical loading. Cyclic tensile strains stimulate an up-regulation of type I collagen production (36) and alignment of the collagen fibers in directions of principle tensile strain (37, 38). Removal of loading leads to degradation of the extra-cellular matrix (39) and disruption of collagen fiber alignment (22) and cross-linking (18).

Quote
In mature animals, immobilization does not lead to changes in the weight or collagen content of tendons and ligaments (15,17,19,20) despite increased collagen turnover (18,20,21). Cross-sectional area may decrease (21), as do modulus, strength, and stiffness (16,19,20). With remobilization, tendons and ligaments recover their structural and material properties (21,22).

Quote
Exercise leads to a moderate increase in the stiffness and failure force. Immobilization leads to a significant decrease in these properties, which rapidly return to normal with remobilization.


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

An interesting paper to say the least. They certainly do hit around what we’re trying to do. They are mainly concerned with ligament and tendon reactions to normal applied and removed strain, but we are trying to permanently change the static length of a ligament. In their approach they are looking at the ability of a leg or tendon to respond back to or increase it’s ability to handle increased strain, neither of which we’re after unfortunately.

If subsequent to immobilization there is a window of opportunity to make a permanent change to a ligaments remembered length then we could hypothesize that incremental reconditioning periods can lead to weaknesses that allow length gains then perhaps we could chart a routine that shows benefits. This study may in fact substantiate what has been reported by many members that rest periods do indeed lead to gains. However all the article seems to deliver is that after immobilization prior strain resistance returns to norms. If may however give credence to light hanging as a means to gains by trying to maintain the deconditioned status that we normally live with. After all prior to PE none of us strained our ligament’s and therefore newbie’s are made extremely happy at initial gains. I believe that the pioneers of our discipline i.e. Bib, luvdadus, etc, etc, have already ventured beyond the article’s point and established that indeed we need strains beyond what we individually find to be normal are needed to accomplish gains in lig length.

Forgive, I ramble. My 2cents!


09-2003 BPEL:6.0x5.5

11-2004 BPEL:8.25x6.25 . . 9+ by Spring is the goal AIR CLAMP

Now BPEL:8 5/8 x 6 5/8 PE Weights

Originally Posted by Monty530
we are trying to permanently change the static length of a ligament.

Thats the thing isn’t it? I think with the ligs deconditioning breaks are useful but not necessary. I theorize one could simply keep raising the weight indefinitely and continue seeing results. A lig deconditioning break simply lets lower weights to be used. Feel the same way about tunica stretching.

BUT I do think that deconditioning has IMMENSE potential value for expanding the other tissues of interest like the cavern….. well I don’t know how to spell it! LOL But I do know that jelqs, constrictor exercises, etc all cause these cells to expand and tear. I think 6-8 weeks of hard work in this area followed by 9-14 days of downtime could be really good. In fact, I’m planning on it and I’ll let everyone know how it goes. :)

(BTW- This is my first week PEing so it’ll be a while. Don’t scoff, I have many years of strength training knowledge which I’m putting to use in my PE work. My first 5 days= 5/8” BPSFL gain!)

Quick follow up- While I don’t think deconditiong breaksa re necessary for the ligs I DO think they can be overtrained and if that occurs rest is best. Too much unhealed damage and I bet those ligs will scar/harden right up killing any future chance of lengthening.

Interesting. Thanks for posting this, ModestoMan. :up:

Monty,

YOu’re right that the paper only deals with strength, not with length. But length is not completely unrelated. The weaker a ligament, the less force is needed to plastically deform it and thus the more length can be gained without an unreasonably large force.

Did you find the part about cross-linkages breaking and collagen direction randomizing with immobilization? Curiously, collagen is not reduced, only lateral bonds between collagen molecules. Those cross-links are what give people “ligs of steel.”

Dreamaloud,

Once I started hanging over 15# I really learned that you cannot just keep adding weight. Anything above this weight give me a lot of bruising and swelling. Maybe it’s just a matter of conditioning. My point is you’re much better off gaining at lower weight than requiring higher weight.


Enter your measurements in the PE Database.

How does stiffness relate to the ability of tissue to plastically deform? I’ve only glanced at this, but the stiffness aspect stood out. If the stiffening response reduces the “stretchability” of tissues, wouldn’t this interfere with our efforts to cause plastic deformation?

Very interesting. As far as I understand it, the field of tendon stretching still does not know the most effective way of increasing elasticity, length, strength, or other. There are other threads here relating to theories of tendon stretching.

I am just curious modesto, have you ever studied continuum mechanics? Like stress strain tensors and what not?


-Still bitter the y2k bug was a dud.

-My dear boy, do you ask a fish how it swims? (No.) Or a bird how it flies? (No.) Of course not. They do it because they were born to do it...

:up: :up: :up:

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Did you find the part about cross-linkages breaking and collagen direction randomizing with immobilization? Curiously, collagen is not reduced, only lateral bonds between collagen molecules. Those cross-links are what give people “ligs of steel.”

Dreamaloud,

Once I started hanging over 15# I really learned that you cannot just keep adding weight. Anything above this weight give me a lot of bruising and swelling. Maybe it’s just a matter of conditioning. My point is you’re much better off gaining at lower weight than requiring higher weight.


See “ligs of steel” I think are well conditioned lig’s that when over loaded lockup like a seatbelt in your car when it’s jerked on. If we could determine when a lig was deconditioned and then only give it enough strain to not exceed natural holding structure then when gains stopped we could just decondition again.

But you see now the debate starts again as to whether it is better to continue PE or decondition? Then which gives you the MOST gains in the overall time picture.

Frankly I’ve had good success with a combination of heavy hanging and then light weights in between sessions. I haven’t increased weight or plateaued in over 9 months. Christmas has messed up my progress though. To much eggnog I guess.


09-2003 BPEL:6.0x5.5

11-2004 BPEL:8.25x6.25 . . 9+ by Spring is the goal AIR CLAMP

Now BPEL:8 5/8 x 6 5/8 PE Weights

Originally Posted by Monty530
Frankly I’ve had good success with a combination of heavy hanging and then light weights in between sessions.

Thats the approach I’m looking at as well. When you say “between sessions” do you mean between sets or actually all day?

Modesto- Maybe I wasn’t clear…just because you could theoritically keep increasing the weight re: the ligs doesn’t mean the other variables would keep up…for example the fluid retention you spoke of.

This paper in the references also looks interesting.
Wren TAL, Beaupré GS, Carter DR. A model for loading-dependent growth, development, and adaptation of tendons and ligaments. J Biomech 1998;31:107-14.

Also
Wren TAL, Carter DR. A microstructural model for the tensile constitutive and failure behavior of soft skeletal connective tissues. J Biomech Eng 1998;120:55 61.
and
Harris AK, Stopak D, Wild P. Fibroblast traction as a mechanism for collagen morphogenesis. Nature 1981;290:249-51.


-Still bitter the y2k bug was a dud.

-My dear boy, do you ask a fish how it swims? (No.) Or a bird how it flies? (No.) Of course not. They do it because they were born to do it...

Originally Posted by dreamaloud1

Thats the approach I’m looking at as well. When you say “between sessions” do you mean between sets or actually all day?

All day. Between sets would be a little tedious. I can only hang sporadically. I might get 3 to 4 sessions weekly so the ADS helps with continuity. My ligs never have a chance to bunch up and toughen.


09-2003 BPEL:6.0x5.5

11-2004 BPEL:8.25x6.25 . . 9+ by Spring is the goal AIR CLAMP

Now BPEL:8 5/8 x 6 5/8 PE Weights

I have some articles in zip files that I attached. I tried making them in one big zip file but was prohibited.

I also have 2 more articles that were too big to upload. One of the mods would have to do it (I think)

Attached Files
article5.zip
(311.5 KB, 16 views)
article6.zip
(356.9 KB, 4 views)
article7.zip
(406.5 KB, 4 views)
articles14.zip
(555.3 KB, 4 views)

-Still bitter the y2k bug was a dud.

-My dear boy, do you ask a fish how it swims? (No.) Or a bird how it flies? (No.) Of course not. They do it because they were born to do it...

Okay, I figure you probably can’t get to those articles, so here are the first 4. The fifth one was too big again.

Attached Files
article10.zip
(144.6 KB, 7 views)
article11.zip
(137.2 KB, 5 views)
article12.zip
(563.5 KB, 6 views)
article13.zip
(140.7 KB, 6 views)

-Still bitter the y2k bug was a dud.

-My dear boy, do you ask a fish how it swims? (No.) Or a bird how it flies? (No.) Of course not. They do it because they were born to do it...

Top
12

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:30 AM.