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A Possible Breakthrough. About TIME !

I’ve continued to read and consider the information at hand. In the scientific text it is stated that cellular damage can “begin” to be seen, under an electron microscope, at strains of 2.5%.

Also, the threshold of 5.14% is called the yield point. The fact that it is called the yield point, and that cellular damage can be seen at lower levels of strain made gave me reason to believe that permanent gains may be made at less than 5.14%. So, I continued to look for more information about the “plastic range”.

When a material reaches its yield point it begins to yield to the force and give to it slightly easier. Yes, permanent elongation does occur at this point, probably all of the elongation becomes permanent here. I did mention that no one should strive for an elongation of 5.14% in one session as other much damage could result.

I presumed that adding at least 5.14% to your BPFSL over many days should be the point at which gains become permanent. I still believe that this is likely to be true.

Still, the routines of successful PE’ers vary, as we know. I began to believe that that a lower strain than 5.14% could be identified as the threshold for entering the plastic range. Also, I believe that this lower strain could be a goal for us to strive for within one PE session, or day of PE (including ADS’ing, or am & pm sessions).

So, I continued to search for more information. Luckily, I have found some.

Here, in this first quote, we see evidence that stretching of the connective tissues needs to go beyond the elastic range, and into the plastic range.

Quote
The physiologic loading region of the stress-strain curve shown in Figure 5 represents the range of forces that usually act on CT in vivo and implies that primarily elastic deformation occurs at these loads. The region of microfailure overlaps the end of the physiologic loading zone. Microfailure represents the breakage of the individual collagen fibers and fiber bundles that are placed under the greatest tension during progressive deformation. The remaining intact fibers and bundles that may have not been directly aligned with the force or those that had more intrinsic length absorb a greater proportion of the load. The result is progressive, permanent (plastic) deformation of the CT structure. If the force is released, the broken fibers will not contribute to the recoil of the tissue. A new length of the CT structure is established that reflects the balance between the elastic recoil of the remaining intact collagen and the resistance of the intrinsic tissue water and glycosaminoglycans to compression. Microfailure is a desired outcome of some manual stretching techniques that are intended to produce permanent elongation of CT structures. It is important to note that a low level of CT damage must occur in order to produce permanent elongation. The collagen breakage will be followed by a classical cycle of tissue inflammation, repair, and remodeling that should be therapeutically managed in order to maintain the desired tissue elongation. The use of modalities, compression, elevation, and directed—but limited—application of force may improve the final results through modulation of the inflammatory cycle.

OK, now that we see that the plastic range needs to be entered, lets find out what amount of strain is required to enter the plastic range.

Quote
The mechanical behavior of ligaments and tendons can be considered to be representative of idealized periarticular CT placed under loading. The ultimate strengths of other common CT structures are listed in the Table. The ultimate strength of spinal ligaments has been less systematically studied. Panjabi and White indicate that the ultimate strength of spinal ligaments ranges from 35 to 450 N. Within a region of the spine, the strongest ligament is generally the anterior longitudinal ligament and the weakest ligament is the interspinous ligament, with the strength of the capsular ligaments, the posterior longitudinal ligament, and the ligamentum flavum falling in between estimated that macrofailure of CT occurs at approximately 8% elongation of the CT structure but that microfailure begins at approximately 3% elongation. If I make the simplifying assumption that the stress-strain curve is linear and use the elongation estimates of Noyes and colleagues for microfailure and macrofailure, CT would begin to experience microfailure at around 224 to 1,136 N (24-115 kg). This gross approximation of the load necessary to cause microfailure (some permanent elongation) can be used to make some educated guesses about how effective the typical forces encountered in manual therapy will be in stretching CT.

The important information here is that “microfailure begins at approximately 3% elongation”.

I will also display a graph that shows microfailure occurring at 3%. I did not create this graph. I found it on the Internet with information about plastic deformation of ligaments/tendons.

Finally, this is both an update and a clarification to this thread. My hypothesis is that we should aim for a strain (additional stretch in BPFSL) of about 3% in one day. Also, that increasing your BPFSL by just over 5%, over the course of several PE days, should make the gains permanent. I believe that in order to cement gains, it is likely that they have to be sufficient enough gains, such as an increase of 5% or more. If this is the case, dragging out extra days of PE may not be what causes the cementing.

Again, this is all just theory, but it is derived from scientific research about connective tissue, which I believe is the ultimate limiting factor in developing a larger penis.

It is certainly open for debate.

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If your idea is correct, is this true? Given a BPFL of 15 cm = 150 mm, then stetching by 5% means to stretch by 7.5 mm = 0.75 cm, which is probably something like 0.75/2.2 = 0.34 inches? So, within 24 hours to reach permanent elongation I need to stretch my dick by 0.34 inches? And so the larger a dick is, the more it has to stretch in the 24 hour period to be permanent, which basically means there is a definite limit or else it will break, that is be damanged.

True?

Can we get a summary of what is thought to be true up to this point?

Thanks!

I really appreciate the scientific research you’ve put into this, but let’s get one thing straight: this is done on cadaver connective tissue (tendons/ligaments), correct? If so, it may have very little relevance to the type of tissue that the tunica is composed of, especially in a living human being. Or, it may be entirely relevant but the numbers (2.5%, 3%, 5.14%) are off somewhat when in reference to living tunica tissue….

These are all speculations, but 5.14% seems awfully high (even 2.5% seems awfully high). My BPFSL is 8.375”, which would mean that I would have to achieve a BPFSL of 8.585” (102.5% of 8.375”) in order to have a productive stretch. That seems awfully high to me, as that is roughly 3/16 of an inch.


I love GOLD

celestialhammer, gold_member, and other members, I am sorry for the lack of clarity in my reasoning. This is only a hypothesis that I have concerning PE theory, and is not a proven fact. Since about 47% of the penis is made up of connective tissue, I personally believe that the sceintific information used in elongating other connective tissues in the body can carry over to PE with some degree of accuracy. Certainly, it is very likely that the percentages are not dead on, but I believe that the realization of needing to enter the plastic range was worth writing this thread. Reaching fatigue is likely what occurs when one stretches into the plastic range.

gold_member, the study quoting that a strain of 5.14% is the point at which the stretch is permanent was done with a “rat” MCL. In that same study, the scientist looked at the “rat MCL” under an electron microscope, and found that the extensive cellular damage was seen at a strain of 3.2%.

That same study included this quote:

Quote
Early studies of mechanical properties of tendons and ligaments disclosed that irreversible mechanical behavior (and presumably damage) occurs at relatively low levels of strain, 2.5–4.5% beyond preloaded refer-ence levels.

http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/LigSubFailDmg.pdf

The information stating that the plastic range begins at 3% was from another article.

Quote
Noyes et al [24] estimated that macrofailure of CT occurs at approximately 8% elongation of the CT structure but that microfailure begins at approximately 3% elongation.

There is no explanation of of whether this is only the estimate from the researcher, or whether a study was performed on cadavers.

This article is at: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+e…e .-a013309993
The quotes on my previous post are also from that last link. I forgot to post the link.

Gold_member, certainly the tunica may permanently elongate at a lower strain. That is somethings that I plan to test.

celestialhammer, my hypothesis has evolved slightly as I wrote this thread. I feel that I presented my ideas too soon, but the opinions from other did guide me once I began to post. In the end, posting my ideas have been helpful.

Now, my current opinion is that a strain of 3% should result in permanent elongation of the tunica, but not necessarily all of that 3% strain will be permanent. Still, I believe that something permanent will have occurred.

Whether the 3% strain needs to be achieved in one day, or over a number of days is something that will have to be tested.

If it is not possible to achieve a 3% strain on the first day (I don’t believe that an additional 3% will be able to be reached each day) after a break, I will try to reach a 3% strain over the course of several days. Remember, my original reason for writing this thread was to point out the finding that connective tissue returns to its normal length after 10 times the time under tension (hang for 1 hour and it will take 10 hours for the strain to disappear). The title meant a possible breakthrough about “time”.

So, I will shoot for a 3% strain on the first day, but if it is not possible, I will work on length on consecutive days. I will measure FSBPL after each session.

Now, for the 5.14% threshold. That is called the yield point, and I learned that it is further into the plastic range, halfway to tissue failure. It is certainly unreasonable to attempt to achieve this in one session. I mentioned early on that this should be aimed for over the course of several PE days, weeks, or more. Early on in this research, I did not know that the plastic range started at a lesser strain. So, I was going to shoot for 5.14% over several consecutive days that included enough hang time for one days increases to lap upon the next days progress. I will look for correlations between a FSBPL gain of 5%, and cementing “all” of the gains created, not just some of them.

150 mm FSBPL
strain of 3% = an additional 4.5 mm or roughly 3/16”.

Stretching you BPFSL 4.5 mm longer in one day? This may not be possible. OK, it is highly likely that it is not possible.

I will follow a routine and measure my FSBPL after the session to see how much of an increase is created in one session. I will not attempt to drag a session out until a strain of 3% is achieved.

Hey you never know it could very well be possible to get that 3/16”. Take a look at wantsmores golf weights thread. He is doing it.


In search of a perfect body, penis, and girl.

The search NO longer continues. :)

Originally Posted by Kojack10
Yes, the fidings of the study do support the use of an ADS.

Most importantly, we now know that the additional stretch created in your suspensory ligament by hanging weights last ten times the amount of hang time. So, if you hung 5 lbs. for 1 hour, the additional stretch (strain/creep) in your ligs will last 10 hours (10 x 1 hour).

That is as simple as I can put it. Possibly I should have stated things in this manner.

This is the type of research I genuinely appreciate, so please don’t misconstrue my questions. But, to review the findings critically, I would offer several points:

(1) A number of non-newbie hangers have reported gains on less than 10 hours hang-time per week.

(2) My approximately 2” of EL gains were all obtained by manual PE, in which I never came close to that amount of total time under load per week (probably < 6 hours of stretching per week - during my most intense length phases, that is).

3) While the academic studies focused on ligament creep, PE gains are comprised of more than that; namely, tunica & CC/CS growth. In other words, not only does this not apply to girth work, but I don’t even believe that lig gains are the most important element of length (that would be the tunica & CC/CS arena). A guy could make length gains by jelqing (even upward jelqing) & by never stretching below 9:00-9:30 or so.

Please feel free to respond.

Agreed.

Personally, I do not count lig creep as actual “growth”.


06/21/07 NBP = 7.75(tape) FSL = 7.875 EG = 5.00 Volume= 15.42

09/13/07 NBP = 8.375 FSL = 8.75 EG = 5.38 Volume = 19.29 (+25%)

12/26/07 NBP = 8.625 FSL = 8.75 EG = 5.50 Volume = 20.82 (+35%)

Previous posts in this thread have mentioned that collagen aligns to resist further deformation when stressed. This happens too in metallurgy. Metal grains when deformed by a tensile stress elongate and resist further deformation: take a piece of copper tubing and bend it, then bend it back, then bend it again. On the outside of the bend (where the tensile force is) it gets harder and harder to bend. You can feel it. There are many ways to harden metal, but this way, by application of force is called “work hardening.” One this happens, the metal is actually stronger. With metals, sometimes one wants to work the metal a certain way but not to get the strengthening effect, and in such cases, one treats the metal after working with heat, raising its temperature (according to the metal), and the crystals realign like before, and the metal is softer like before. This is called “annealing.” I think this provides a clue to understanding how to improve hanging results.

We have read in other posts that scientists trying to elongage ligaments treat the ligs with heat and the rate of elongation improves for a given deforming force.

Back to metallurgy: metals, even strong metals, like steel, can be significantly deformed by relatively light loads (loads that are a fraction of the load at which the metal normally extends and fails), if that relatively light load is accompanied by heat. This is what “creep” is. A metal that fails (extends to breaking point instantaneously) at, say, 10,000 psi might extend slowly at only 3,000 psi, if that load is sustained over a long time … accompanied by heat.

How does heat do this? One way to look at it is that creep is essentially a process whereby the metal suffers (1) constant deformation owing to the sustained load at high temperature, (2) but constant work hardening arising from the deformation results from the crystals (like collagen) realigning themselves so that the metal becomes better able to withstand the load without further elongation, (3) followed by continual annealing of the metal from the high temperatures and realigning of the crystals (so that they no longer resist the deforming force so well).

I think this explains why the scientists find that ligaments extend so well to combined heat and force application.

For this reason, throughout my entire hanging sessions I use a 100 Watt incandescent bulb (no UV radiation from these, as with a heat lamp) which has a reflector attached and throws more heat than I can take if it isn’t far enough away. I project that heat right on my dick but shield my balls, cause it gets hot. I find that I feel stress effects not only in ligs but in tunica with heat application.

Finally, after hanging sets and while still hot, I put PE weights on, one at a time, doing fulcrum stretching.

Then, I stand up, get on with my day, and cool off while still extended, hoping thereby to “fix” to some degree any micro gains.

This will be my program; will keep you posted.

Ta.


Nov 2006 bpel: 7.88 eg: 5.19

Mar 2007 bpel: 8.25 eg 5.38

Shooting for 9 x 6 Ddog.

Another interesting lateral thinking perspective. Thanks ddog.


Heat makes the difference between gaining quickly or slowly for some guys, or between gaining slowly instead of not at all for others. And the ideal penis size is 7.6" BPEL x 5.6" Mid Girth.

Basics.... firegoat roll How to use the Search button for best results

Originally Posted by wadzilla
This is the type of research I genuinely appreciate, so please don’t misconstrue my questions. But, to review the findings critically, I would offer several points:

(1) A number of non-newbie hangers have reported gains on less than 10 hours hang-time per week.


Because it is all about creating micro tears in the collagen. The tears can be created in a shorter amount of time, but more foce is necessary. A negative result of the high force (what is high? I’m not sure) is that other tissue aside from the collagen also gets damaged, but it heals up, which is one of the reasons for rest days. I’d recommend that information about 10 X the hangtime- for those that hand light to moderate. They need to accumulate enough strain over days to finally during a session, or day, create micro tears.

Originally Posted by wadzilla
(2) My approximately 2” of EL gains were all obtained by manual PE, in which I never came close to that amount of total time under load per week (probably < 6 hours of stretching per week - during my most intense length phases, that is).

You created the gains in less time becuase you were able to create micro tears in individual PE sessions. The force was sufficient at that point. You did not need to accumulate strain/stretch over time.

Originally Posted by wadzilla
3) While the academic studies focused on ligament creep, PE gains are comprised of more than that; namely, tunica & CC/CS growth. In other words, not only does this not apply to girth work, but I don’t even believe that lig gains are the most important element of length (that would be the tunica & CC/CS arena). A guy could make length gains by jelqing (even upward jelqing) & by never stretching below 9:00-9:30 or so.

Please feel free to respond.


Yes, I was wrong about the ligs at the beginning of this thread. I learnded that something else, possilby the dorsal thickening or the septum is the strongest run of collagen in the penis lengthwise.

I’ve realized that when hangers feel fatigue, they are masically feeling the point at which some micro tears have been created. I’m going to be reading more about what Bib and others have had to say about fatigue. Some reached it over after hanging for consecutive days, and some were able to reach it in one session.


Last edited by Kojack10 : 12-04-2007 at .

I’m asking to myself how all those studies accord to results of exenders users; they don’t stretch the penis over EL, and have results; gains of extender-users lack or slow when they attempt to stretch over the EL.

I think also that you, kojack, are supposing that if tissue return at it’s original length, it means that gains aren’t producing; this is not a logical consequence of the studies reported: as we are speaking of living tissue, even if it return temporarely to it’s normal length (or shorter) this fact could simply means that the tissue is repairing itself for being able to extend more.

You are also stating that growth will start when, after cumulative stretches, the penis will start to stay 5%longer than previously: are you referring to EL? Because, when penis is 5% longer then it was, growth is not coming, is already here. Have I misunterpreted something?

Another pill: many of us have seen those videos of chinese taoist hanging hundreds of lbs with their penises; I think that they stretch temporarily their penises well over 5% doing that (risking to lost their units, but that’s it); I never heard this hardcore penis-hangers have noticeable penises.

My believe on this subject is this (you are deadly courious about, I know :) ): we all are overestimating the tension applied when stretching the penis, where there is no single proof that more tension = more gains; if we have any evidence on this subject, it’s that time under tension, even little tension, is the vital point that lead to length gains.

High tension is probably more realevant factor for girth gains.

However, your reasearches are really interesting and appreciable, and I hope this thread will continue to grow.

Good info, good thinking

Originally Posted by marinera
I’m asking to myself how all those studies accord to results of exenders users; they don’t stretch the penis over EL, and have results; gains of extender-users lack or slow when they attempt to stretch over the EL.

Don’t extenders stretch at forces of 1200 mg - 2000 mg? I believe that such a force would hold the penis at or near BPFSL. Most members have a BPFSL that is longer than their BPEL. I must say that I believe that the advice given by one particular exteder seller, to stretch at extremely low forces/less than BPFSL is a crock. If such is effective, it must be acting as an ads, and slowing the tissues from losing the strech imposed by other PE methods.

Originally Posted by marinera
I think also that you, kojack, are supposing that if tissue return at it’s original length, it means that gains aren’t producing; this is not a logical consequence of the studies reported: as we are speaking of living tissue, even if it return temporarely to it’s normal length (or shorter) this fact could simply means that the tissue is repairing itself for being able to extend more.

If lower forces are used, and microtears were not created in one day or session, it is beneficial to hold the tissues at a stretch in hopes of not starting off at the beggining all over again. If the forces did create microtears, then they can just heal, as you are saying. It is all a matter of whether or not the threshold was crossed.

Originally Posted by marinera
You are also stating that growth will start when, after cumulative stretches, the penis will start to stay 5%longer than previously: are you referring to EL? Because, when penis is 5% longer then it was, growth is not coming, is already here. Have I misunterpreted something?

Well, after further reading, the 5% threshold seems to be a bit too far, or too much. The threshold for the beginning of microtears setting in appears to be down near 2.5 or 3%. Refer to a post on the top of this page for more information about that issue. Oh, and that’s an icrease in BPFSL.

Originally Posted by marinera
Another pill: many of us have seen those videos of chinese taoist hanging hundreds of lbs with their penises; I think that they stretch temporarily their penises well over 5% doing that (risking to lost their units, but that’s it); I never heard this hardcore penis-hangers have noticeable penises.

After three weeks of applying one amount of force to collagen it begins to allign itself more effectively in order to resist further stretching. The body adapts to that particular amount of force. Also, this heavy hanging done for show is probably done for very short periods of time. Also, these guys may have made small gains along the way. We have not seen proof that they have, or have not. It is possible that they gained a tiny amount early on, but then just went on to further condition their penises.

Originally Posted by marinera
My believe on this subject is this (you are deadly courious about, I know :) ): we all are overestimating the tension applied when stretching the penis, where there is no single proof that more tension = more gains; if we have any evidence on this subject, it’s that time under tension, even little tension, is the vital point that lead to length gains.

I do agree with you that many hours with little tension also creates gains, but it does it by the same phenomenon as the heavier hanging. It’s all about creating micro tears in the collagen. Yes, the other parts have to experience micro tears, and also heal, but the collagen is what resists the stretching forces. Actually, going too heavy is not good, even if gains are created, becuase the tissues other than the collagen sustain too much damage. Low resistance - long duration stretching/hangind is superior, but as always we are always trying to find method produces more consistent gains in the long run. I don’t have the time for very long hanging periods (I don’t even have the privacy to hang right now, as I’m living in an RV with a buddy).

The point that I made about 10 times the hang time, for how long it takes for tissues to “lose” the stretch put into them, was mentioned specifically in favor of low force - long duration stretching/hanging.

Originally Posted by marinera
High tension is probably more realevant factor for girth gains.

Yes, it is, but that is likely because we can not keep a moderate erection lasting many hours in a safe manner. Look up the info about priapism and megalophallus. High intensity clamping takes the collagen past the threshold in one day or session. Therefore rest days between sessions are appropriate.

Originally Posted by marinera
However, your reasearches are really interesting and appreciable, and I hope this thread will continue to grow.

Thank you! It is just that, research. It is research interpreted by me, therfore it is an opinion and not a fact. I’d hope that it comes across as an educated guess, and a realistic theory worth testing or applying.
[/QUOTE]

How to break the collagen bonds easier that is the next turn in this research. Or is it growing collagen that causes growth?


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

Well, the additional length comes right as the micro tears happen. Sure some of the stretch is elastic, but the permanent length gain is locked in when the micro tears occur. It becomes “really permanent” when the micro tears heal.

Kingpole, basically the tissue gets longer first by elastic stretching (elastic= not permanent), then by micro tears. The micro tears are just gaps or holes that have been put in the collagen. The only actual cell growth that occurs is when new collagen fills in those gaps or holes, so to speak. So, the growth is really just “healing” of the tear. The increase in size comes from the tear, and not the tissue that grows to fill in the space. The body just reapairs itself with the aditional tissue. It is scar tissue. The creation of scar tissue is minimized if low forces are used. Scar tissue is less elastic, and this may be why increases in FSBPL are tough for vets. The vets have to create microtears in areas of the collagen that are fresh, and scar tissue does not exist. This is why the use of the fulcrum is effective for vets. Particular areas are able to be targeted. Areas without micro tears are found, and then they can be created.

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