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A Possible Breakthrough. About TIME !

K10

Don’t have any problem with your basic theory but would like to ask and understand what consitutes strain? How do you know when you have developed strain(in relation to 5.1%) and how do you know how much strain you have developed?

About a month ago I started a new approach to my stretching, fowfering, and pumping and am keep records of time under load with each technique. Would like to apply some of your theory to my experimentation if I can understand it.


fow........Original Goal" 9" x 6", Started PE 10/27/99 at 7.0"bpel, 5.5" eg, 4.5"fl

Major Plateau: from 07/01/01 thru 12/01/07 at 8.75"bpel, 6.25"eg, 7.0"fl, 5.5"eg, 9.0"fsl

Stopped PE 12/01/07 Measured 04/03/08 8.00"bpel, 6.25"eg, 7.0"fl, 5.5"eg, 9.0"fsl......2010 back up to 8.5" x 6.25"

Nice article Kojack. My personal excitement about the findings you present here is somewhat dampened by my own lack of progress hanging under conditions that to fall within your recommended parameters.

Achieving a 5% elongation once is different from achieving it repeatedly, especially after an initial growth spurt. As you said, the collagen starts to align to resist further elongation. At some point, strenthening happens faster than lengthening and the process grinds to a halt.

I think that the key to sustained growth is to apply the right amount of force so stimulate tissue production. That amount will be different for different guys. For me, it appears to be more than what an ADS can supply but less than what one gets with a vigorous hanging regimen.

In my experience it’s more effective to hang (or stretch) several times over the course of a day than to hang (or stretch) for a long time in one big block. Maybe this is consistent with what you’re saying.

I think that tissues strengthen when stretched for long periods, but they become more pliable when stretched for short times throughout the day. That’s what seems to work for me, anyway.


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 09-18-2007 at .

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Nice article Kojack. My personal excitement about the findings you present here is somewhat dampened by my own lack of progress hanging under conditions that to fall within your recommended parameters.

Achieving a 5% elongation once is different from achieving it repeatedly, especially after an initial growth spurt. As you said, the collagen starts to align to resist further elongation. At some point, strenthening happens faster than lengthening and the process grinds to a halt.

I think that the key to sustained growth is to apply the right amount of force so stimulate tissue production. That amount will be different for different guys. For me, it appears to be more than what an ADS can supply but less than what one gets with a vigorous hanging regimen.

In my experience it’s more effective to hang (or stretch) several times over the course of a day than to hang (or stretch) for a long time in one big block. Maybe this is consistent with what you’re saying.

I think that tissues strengthen when stretched for long periods, but they become more pliable when stretched for short times throughout the day. That’s what seems to work for me, anyway.

You know I was wondering about this but I think I have a solution to this problem, I stress I think, it is in the theory stage. I think longer warm up penis is the trick to collagen resistance. Fowfers serve as a good warm up and makes your dick less resistant to PE.

Beings you guys hang and I don’t maybe you can try this and I will work. Do fowfers or bed fowfers for a half hour. Then hang for whatever amount of time you hang. Give it a month see what happens.


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

ModestoMan, it is great to receive a reply from you. I’ve read many of your post to other “PE theory” type threads, and I really enjoy reading your perspectives. I often “think” that your theory of what occurs in the ligs is more accurate than the opinion of others.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Nice article Kojack. My personal excitement about the findings you present here is somewhat dampened by my own lack of progress hanging under conditions that to fall within your recommended parameters.

I’m sorry to hear that. Certainly, more research is needed on all of the variables in hanging. Have you taken a deconditioning break lately? You probably have, since you stated that you’ve been within the recommended parameters. I know that you haven’t gained from it, but I feel great to have recommended a routine that is similar to what you have come up with.

Quote
Achieving a 5% elongation once is different from achieving it repeatedly, especially after an initial growth spurt. As you said, the collagen starts to align to resist further elongation. At some point, strengthening happens faster than lengthening and the process grinds to a halt.

Yes, achieving a 5% elongation in one day would probably result in a ligament sprain, and damage to other penile tissues. That is not exactly what you mean though, right? You mean reaching it once after several days of accumulated stretch is not the same as…….? Well, I’m lost after that. Basically, after a guy’s BPFSL increases by 5.5% or more (just to be sure to be past 5.1%), it would probably be best to use an ADS for a couple of weeks, then take 2-3 months off, instead of merely continuing to cross that 5% mark. After the deconditioning break they can shoot for the next 5%. Again, this is just a theory.

Quote
I think that the key to sustained growth is to apply the right amount of force so stimulate tissue production. That amount will be different for different guys. For me, it appears to be more than what an ADS can supply but less than what one gets with a vigorous hanging regimen.

I do agree with you about finding the right amount of weight. Nevertheless, I believe that the weight needs to be more, or less, depending on the amount of hang time. Also, I believe that some men have ligs that naturally have a larger cross-section. Do we all have the same size acl, or other ligament, no. Basically, they are wider and will probably need a tad bit more weight. Still, I don’t think that the increase in weight should be drastic. It may be .5 lbs. or 1 - 2 lbs. Regardless, I believe that the basic physiology behind ligament elongation will be the same for every man. Sure, some tweaking of weight and time may be needed, but the principles behind it all will be the same, once they are finally narrowed down. We know them now, but in the broad sense.

Quote
In my experience it’s more effective to hang (or stretch) several times over the course of a day than to hang (or stretch) for a long time in one big block. Maybe this is consistent with what you’re saying.

You may be right. This is sort of what I was tying to say in that it will take the ligs 10 times the hang time in order for the stretch to be lost, so by doing am/pm PE, or by doing session spread out over the day, one keeps starting over his “10 X the hang-time lig clock”. Yet, I must mention that physical therapist us the “Dynamic splinting” method to create plastic deformation in a ligament also. This is the light weigth x long duration method, 6 - 12 hours each day, with no rest days. On the other hand, I’ve recently found a physical therapy program outline that recommends three 20 minute sessions spread out over the day, with heat applied during the first half of the set, and cold during the second half. This routine was also said to induce plastic deformation. I must add that the force recommended for the 20 minutes was “as much as the patient can tolerate”. (CAUTION- this was for a leg, arm, shoulder, knee, etc…. with much fewer nerves etc… ) This is in contrast to the light weight long duration method. I believe that heating and cooling are major factors here that make this shorter duration successful. Bib did use heat throughout the first half of his am sets, then cooled at room temperature for the remainder of the set. Heating and cooling is not mentioned with the dynamic splinting method. I would still use heat when possible though.

I must mention that time and time again, I’m reading that long-duration stretches are superior for inducing plastic deformation in a ligament. What I need to learn is what is considered long-duration, and what is optimal for the suspensory ligament of the penis. After nailing down “time”, we can then seek for ideal weight, which I believe will vary slightly for each individual.

This reminds me of the PPM theory mentioned by buby. Time and weight may be interchangeable. There is a chance that this is likely true for weights between 2.2 and 22 lbs. or 1 to 10 kg, I’m contemplating this also. Graphs displaying creep do have a linear section, but the whole of it is not linear. Again, heavier weights may cause cell damage to other tissues aside from the ligs and require rest days. Negative PI’s anyone?


Quote
I think that tissues strengthen when stretched for long periods, but they become more pliable when stretched for short times throughout the day. That’s what seems to work for me, anyway.

You may be right. I don’t have a definite answer for this. Possibly, all other tissue become more pliable, therefore making the ligs appear stiffer after a long stretch. Some elasticity will be lost as everything is hanging longer, and you may seem to reach the limit of the ligs quicker when stretching, after long periods. Those are just some ideas.

If anyone hasn’t read this thread More proof that long periods of hanging may be beneficial?

or this thread yet,
High force versus Low force I’d recommend that you do so. On the first thread mentioned, Bib writes something about that 5.1% mark. I’m not really the first one to mention that here. Also, the title of my thread should have been more along the lines of “Concerning Time”, because the breakthrough in my eyes was about that 10 times the hang-time info. That was the first scientific information about the amount of time that it takes for a ligament to return to its normal length that I have ever seen.

Topics to look for: long duration/short duration stretching,
heating while hanging, and then cooling during the end of the set.


Last edited by Kojack10 : 09-19-2007 at .

Great article, now if only we could interpret what 5.1% means as far as the amount of tension needed to cause creep….

The article did not cover what is better: heavy tension, short duration (but still exceeding the 2.16 hours/day minimum) VS low tension, long duration (exceeding 5.1% (whatever that means) and duration being between 2.16 hours and 24 hours per day).

It is good to know that simply doing manual stretches for a half hour might only work for the newbies….


I love GOLD

Originally Posted by gold_member
Great article, now if only we could interpret what 5.1% means as far as the amount of tension needed to cause creep..

The article did not cover what is better: heavy tension, short duration (but still exceeding the 2.16 hours/day minimum) VS low tension, long duration (exceeding 5.1% (whatever that means) and duration being between 2.16 hours and 24 hours per day).

It is good to know that simply doing manual stretches for a half hour might only work for the newbies..

Is this 5% body weight, penis length, what?


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

Originally Posted by Kojak10
Consider using a cold pack for the last 10 minutes of the hanging set. This is thought to help cause plastic deformation in the ligament.

This you got from where?

I’m following the rest of your thinking and, for the record, I don’t think you posted too soon, but I do wonder about the recommendation for use of cold.

The rest of it makes sense to me. I like the thought of 2 lbs on a vacuhanger for hours at a time, and then ADSing.

Low impact PE - I like it!

It’s a nice idea.

My only other comment is you should post more often.

kingpole our man here is referring to 5.1 % of the economic price index. He has consulted with Alan Greenspan and the consensus is good. Stocks are up, the prime rate is down, and the mortgage market is bottoming out.

He also recommends a lot of hanging.


Before: I'd like to show you something I'm very proud of, but you'll have to move real close.

After: I\'d like to show you something I\'m very proud of, but you guys in the front row will have to stand back.

God gave men both a penis and a brain, but unfortunately not enough blood supply to run both at the same time. - Robin Williams (:

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy
This you got from where?

I’m following the rest of your thinking and, for the record, I don’t think you posted too soon, but I do wonder about the recommendation for use of cold.

The rest of it makes sense to me. I like the thought of 2 lbs on a vacuhanger for hours at a time, and then ADSing.

Low impact PE - I like it!

It’s a nice idea.

My only other comment is you should post more often.

Kingpole our man here is referring to 5.1 % of the economic price index. He has consulted with Alan Greenspan and the consensus is good. Stocks are up, the prime rate is down, and the mortgage market is bottoming out.

He also recommends a lot of hanging.

Yeah well my dick has increasaed in size about 20%, hehehe!
Seriously what is 5% adding 5% more weight or 5% more hanging time?


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

From K10s last statements, I’m begining to think he is saying 5.1% stretch or if I, being 9.0”FSL, would have to increase my FSL to 9.459” before I would possibly see any gains???????? Now that would be discouraging. Sure hope I’m misunderstanding all of this.


fow........Original Goal" 9" x 6", Started PE 10/27/99 at 7.0"bpel, 5.5" eg, 4.5"fl

Major Plateau: from 07/01/01 thru 12/01/07 at 8.75"bpel, 6.25"eg, 7.0"fl, 5.5"eg, 9.0"fsl

Stopped PE 12/01/07 Measured 04/03/08 8.00"bpel, 6.25"eg, 7.0"fl, 5.5"eg, 9.0"fsl......2010 back up to 8.5" x 6.25"

I was referring to an increase in your flaccid bone pressed stretched length. If it is 15 cm (or 6”), that will be an increase of 8 mm. Basically, it is a 5.14% increase in the ligament over the course of multiple days that should cement length gains. Do that in one day and you’ll have a ligament sprain, not a gain. Actually, I’m still researching and seeking for the degree of stretch that begins to cause plastic deformation.

Mr. Happy, I do have links saved to physical therapy articles that recommend the use of cold at the end of a stretching session. I’m out of time for tonight, I’ll post them tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Kojack10
I was referring to an increase in your flaccid bone pressed stretched length. If it is 15 cm (or 6”), that will be an increase of 8 mm. Basically, it is a 5.14% increase in the ligament over the course of multiple days that should cement length gains. Do that in one day and you’ll have a ligament sprain, not a gain. Actually, I’m still researching and seeking for the degree of stretch that begins to cause plastic deformation.

Mr. Happy, I do have links saved to physical therapy articles that recommend the use of cold at the end of a stretching session. I’m out of time for tonight, I’ll post them tomorrow.

That makes sense MR. 10.


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

The article is about stretching ligaments. The 5.1% number appears to refer to the ligament only (ACL, is it?), which in our case corresponds to the suspensory ligament. But stretching this ligament will have approximately zero effect on your BPEL, when measured at 90-degrees to your body. It may have an effect at lower angles, due to the lower attachment, but no growth results from ligament stretching.

Something might be gained by applying the principles set forth in the article to stretching the tunica. The tunica is actually denser and more organized (collagen is more aligned) than a ligament. So the findings may not directly apply.

But I do like the idea of maintaining force over long periods of time—or better yet several times over the course of a day.

Consistency is imperative. Keep pushing the envelope forward. Don’t take time off. Adopt a routine you can maintain over the long haul.

Hanging for hours per day won’t necessarily get you there. Do something morning, noon, and night. Even if it’s only for 5 minutes.

That’s my current opinion, which is meant for guys who have already gotten their newbie gains. Newbie’s should use the newbie routine.

Sorry this is telegraphic, but I’m in a rush. Interesting thread, though. Thanks, Kojack10.


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I agree. I don’t believe there’s anything to gain by stretching the suspensory ligaments. In fact, I do all my hanging at as close to my erection angle as possible while seated, which is pretty much straight up. I feel that my ‘next limiting factor’ as bib talks about will present itself if I hang in this manner.

On June 1st I started following a routine similar to the one that is talked about in this thread. My routine involves both hanging (straight up), and manual fulcrum stretches spaced every few hours throughout the day. I like to think of the hanging session as the ‘fatigue inducer’ of my routine, and the manual stretches as ‘targeted pre-exhaustion exercises’. I perform the manuals throughout the day, focusing on the septum, in a stall in the restroom at work. Generally, a couple minutes per-hand. Then, I hang three sets at the end of the day just before going to bed. I strive for fatigue during the first set, lower the weight, and finish the set (standard stuff). This last month I incorporated heat throughout the first two sessions and halfway through the last. Then I switch to a bag of frozen peas for a cooling off period. I don’t know if the peas are going to help but, what the hell.

I developed this routine due to the fact that hanging several sets throughout the day was impossible and, hanging only one, one hour session per day was not enough. I wouldn’t reach fatigue on my first set the following day. I never take rest days. And, if I can’t hang, I still do my manuals throughout the day. Which by the way, I reach fatigue while doing, forcing me to lower the tension. Oh, and I don’t confuse things by jelking or doing any other length or girth exercises.

This routine has netted me ½ inch in length and a ¼ in girth in three months. This is on top of my newbie gains back in March and then a stalled period of about two months when I gave the ‘static stretcher’ a try.

I think there is definitely something to gain by spreading exercises throughout the day, never resting, and focusing on the tunica.

ModestoMan, yes that study is referring to a ligament. Also, the tunica is very similar. In fact, like you mentioned, the collagen may be denser and more aligned. I have to say that I have not done much research into the tunica, but collagen and connective tissues in both the ligs and the tunica should deform by the same principles. Certainly, the degree of strain required to go beyond the elastic range, and into the plastic range may be different for the tunica, but I’m willing to bet that it is fairly close.

About the ligs not being the target for ebpl gains. Well, I’m referring to increasing your fsbpl gains by a set amount. This is measured straight out. It will be up to the individual to choose the angle of hanging/stretching that best accomplishes a gain in FSBPL. If SO is the best angle, then go for it. Stretching SO should hit the ligs and the tunica.

Dickbuilder, you are on the money! I really like the terms that you’ve used, such as “fatigue inducer”, and “targeted pre-exhaustion”. You are inducing enough creep in your ligs during the day by doing manual stretches. That gives you a head start. You may already have a 1-2% strain built up at that point. Then, when you begin to hang in the evening, you are able to reach fatigue within a doable amount of time, with a weight that is safe. Had you not given your ligs or tunica, the connective tissues in your penis, that “pre-exhaustion” you may not have reached fatigue within your allotted time, and with that weight.

Also, I firmly believe that incorporating heat during the set, then cooling with the peas (nice creative cool pack) is assisting you in causing plastic deformation of the tissues.

Hanging after wearing an ads, or manual stretching is a new idea to me, I just did not think about it. I’ve been trying to explain how to do enough low intensity long duration work for one day to the the “pre-exhaustion” of the next day, so that daily increases in FSBPL begin to lap and accumulate. Your idea may prove to be excellent! I drew my idea of ads’ing after from the IPR suggestions, and studies that show that collagen is placed haphazardly if the ligament is not stretched while healing. Then again, if you use an ads for two weeks before deconditioning may be all that is needed for even collagen distribution.

Look, I’m kinda getting more excited guys. I found more graphs and info. This is a work in progress for me, but I’m beginning to understand the research on connective tissues better as time passes.

My last find gives me a rough estimation of the amount of strain, or increase in FSBPL that is needed before the tissues finally go beyond the elastic range, and into the plastic range. I need to crunch some simple numbers and read a bit more before I stand behind the info.

Also, I’m beginning to believe that when you reach “fatigue” you’ve basically began stretching into the “plastic range” and some plastic deformation will be created. So, I may be able to give a rough estimate of the amount of stretch needed to reach fatigue. It may not be just a “do it by feel” kinda thing in the future. It may become a zone that we can identify.

I’m going to take a look at a thread by Monty530 about measuring your FSBPL directly after your routine in order to see you much longer you penis is temporarily. Subtract your FSBPL (that was taken just after decondintioning with no PE before measuring) from your new “after session FSBPL” and the difference will be how much strain has been induced. If we know how much of a strain is needed to be in the plastic range, you will know if you entered it or not. Then, if needed you can up the weight, or the time for the next session. “IF” this does turn out to be true, you will not have to wait to find out that your routine is not effective. You will be able to gauge the effectiveness of your routine on a daily basis. One problem though, measuring accurately and not cheating yourself one way or the other. Oh, I’d use the metric system and measure the millimeters.

Here’s the quotes and links about a cold application being beneficial during the last remaining minutes of a hanging/stretching set.

Quote
It has been shown that the use of heat along with stretching relaxes the collagen fibers and allows greater elongation. Besides influencing the collagen, the increased temperature increases the sensitivity of the Golgi tendons aiding muscle relaxation. The temperature should be over 104 F. It has been found that the use of ultrasound during stretching is more effective in lengthening. A procedure that works very well in treating adhesive capsulitis is putting the patient in a supine stretched position with the shoulder in lateral rotation for 20 to 60 minutes, with moist heat applied to the shoulder followed by 15 minutes of ice maintaining the stretched position. The patient can hold a weight if it does not increase pain. Cooling the tissue is thought to allow the collagenous microstructure to restabilize more toward its new stretched length.8

From: http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/11/04/27.html

Quote
Cold increases the pain threshold, the viscosity and the plastic deformation of the tissues but decreases the motor performance. The application of cold has also been found to decrease the inflammatory reaction in an experimental situation.

So, cold increases plastic deformation of tissues, and decreases inflamation. That’s a win/win situation for PE.

Quote
The proper duration of cold therapy is a topic of much discussion. Traditionally, doctors have recommended applying cold to injured areas for 15-30 minutes at a time, but recent research carried out at the University of Brussels indicates that the permeability of lymphatic vessels decreases after about 10 minutes of cold therapy. Since lymphatic vessels drain fluid away from injured tissues and thereby relieve swelling, the researchers recommend that cold be applied to damaged tissues in no longer than 10-minute intervals. 8

From: http://www.grucox.com/cryotherapy.html

Quote
Application of cryotherapy to the involved tissue area in a maximally tolerated stretched position for 20 minutes encourages the collagen to contract (not shorten) in the elongated position.25 This second TERT helps create the plastic deformation response and help realign and remodel the collagen tissue.28

Ah, I’m an information junkie!

From: http://www.biomech.com/db_area/arch…77-81.bio-.html

Last, here’s some info about applying heat first, then allowing the tissues to cool while still extended. Yes, this study refers to cooling at room temperature, but it was done in the 70’s. Science progresses.

Quote
Lehman and associates (1970) studied the effects of heat and stretching on rat tail tendons.6 The results indicated that heating alone produced no significant elongation and that stretching alone produced no residual elongation. Significant elongation occurred if heat and stretch were combined. A greater increase in length was maintained if the stretch was held during the period of cooling since “reorganization of the tissues is thought to occur during the cooling period.”6 Overall, the most effective method of producing a plastic deformation of connective tissue was to apply a sustained stretch during the application of heat and to maintain the stretch during the period of cooling.

When done alone, neither heating nor stretching produced any residual elongation (permanent), but together “significant” elongation occured!

From: http://www.activebodyclinic.com/core_Physio_heat.html

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