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When I have made great gains, I...

It’s just that “little more pressure” of 3½ or 4” hg that does it:

it “brings the twings” back again,
wood comes back again,
the “ache feeling” comes back again.

But as you can see I’m working it upwards very slowly and erring on the side of caution. Keep level-headed about it and back off if I find myself getting in any excitement or anxious-enthusiastic-impatient state of mind over it.

Another good way to describe the ache feeling is like that good, tired feeling you have at the gym or out working. It gives you that “it’s had a good workout feeling”… that’s exactly what it first reminded me of when I had it. I feel it all throughout the penis, not just on the skin or just in the middle, but everywhere all throughout equally. The feeling does NOT extend down into the ligs or anywhere else past the base of the penis.

(I think getting my ligs to move is like trying to move a concrete wall, that’s just my “comical” little theory on ligs right now. Ligs = Unmoveable concrete.) :)

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All truth goes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self evident. -Schopenhauer

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. -Richard Dawkins


What’s a pa? Pound-hours or something?

BTW, That’s a cute picture you have there. Interesting haircut. :)

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All truth goes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self evident. -Schopenhauer

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. -Richard Dawkins


pa = per annum, ie in one year

Thanks for the complement about my atavar. She is a cute little heifer isn’t she?

Feb 2004 BPEL 6.7" NBPEL ???? BPFSL ???? EG 5.65" Feb 2005 BPEL 7.1" NBPEL 5.8" BPFSL 6.9" EG 5.8" Feb 2006 BPEL 7.3" NBPEL 5.8" BPFSL 7.6" EG 5.85" Feb 2007 BPEL 7.3" NBPEL 5.8" BPFSL 7.5" EG 5.9"

I just thought of a slightly different approach.

Start with what ever you think would work,and if you get decreased wood or length, start to decrease your program until you see gains.

So lets just say you start a program of heat, stretches and jelques.

Lets say you are showing signs of overtraining…cut down the stretches and jelques.

Say you start with 10 minutes of stretches and 10 minutes of jelquing. Cut that in half and see if the PI’s of progress return. If they do, then you could slowly add time to both ( 1 min each per week) and measure both changes in size and erections.

I really think the guys that made great gains have tuned into one or more of these and adapt their daily routine to compensate.

An analogy that I thought was appropriate to this subject would be driving cross country.

Lets just say you wanted to drive from LA to NYC. Lets say you were trained well in how to use your car. Lets further say that someone told you you have to get up a 700 am, drive 500 miles every day, check into a hotel at night and repeat that process for 6 days and you will be in NYC.

How many people would get there in 6 days with just that info? Damn few I would imagine.

Whats missing is directions, and the ability to read road signs. If you don’t have directions and the ability to read road signs a 6 day trip may take 20 years!

I just read a thread yesterday where a guy claimed he achieved 1 1/2 in increase in girth over 10 sessions which took about 20 days….?

This is after about 6 months of non-progress. Do I believe this is possible?

I’ve seen it in strength gains for myself. When I was doing it wrong, it’d take years to make real increases in strength, if at ALL!

When I dialed my PI’s in, I could triple my strength in less than 4 months!

I believe far more gains are possible for the average guy in far shorter time than most of us are seeing. We just need to quit taking 2 steps forward and 2.02 steps backward on a daily basis.

This will be accomplished by adding road sign reading to your driving skills….PAYING ATTENTION TO YOUR PI’S!!!!

Now I need you guys to come back with your personal PI’s and how you apply them to your particular PE.

One more thing, what if you are getting excellent morning and nite wood, but no real growth? I’m thinking that may be an indicator to slowly incrementally increase the sets, time or force, until you either begin to see growth or the wood starts to decrease in some manner. Just a thought.



Are you finding anything out with these longer break periods? I’m taking a two day break till tomorrow night (it will be one month), I’ll take my official “one month” measurement and see if any growth has occurred. I’m wondering if I should extend it past tomorrow night. Are you seeing anything encouraging yet with longer breaks?

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All truth goes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self evident. -Schopenhauer

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. -Richard Dawkins

Because of the nature of the routine, breaks are by far the largest component. It’s almost like a non pe routine with on average 2 stretch routines per week lasting no more than a couple of minutes in total (after a thorough IR heating). As a result it will probably take several more months to answer that properly. So far the positive effects are:

1. Minimal time commitment
2. Minimal stress to tissues
3. Gains in the ball park of 1+mm per week.

The number 3 option is tough to be accurate about since it’s such a small amount and less than what is a realistic unit of measurement for PE. I arrived at that number by adding the gains so far and dividing by the number of weeks. It’s been less than two months so far so there is a high margin of error. I don’t know yet for example if these are linear gains or declining ones (in mm terms or % terms). If 1mm per week were sustainable then that would be over 2” per year, but I have a hard time believing that would happen. I’ll keep doing it until I see there is no change in 1 month then think of something else to do (probably a girth routine).

Edit: One more thing I forgot to mention - I think it will probably be necessary to come at this from a completely deconditioned state. I don’t think it would work for someone who is frustrated with their routine and looking for something else. The whole huge yet simple premise is that we should not be tearing or damaging the tissue in any way.

Last edited by Shiver : 12-31-2004 at .

I wrote the above just before doing my routine. I seems like I gained a little again (I’m talking ~1mm here so not statistically significant) which is promising. The surprise though was BPEL has caught up another 1/8” since I last entered my PE data just 9 days ago. BPEL seems to trail in a variable fashion of between 1/2” and 11/16”.

I’ve been playing around with the ideas in this protocol for a while now (ever since the thread “benefits of heat in PE”), and with that routine I came in completely deconditioned and made daily gains for for 9-10 days then it stalled completely so I stopped. Earlier this year I did the same thing but with IR and had lost some size before starting, but gained daily again and surpassed my previous best by just a little. Unfortunately gains stalled in the same way.

What I’m doing now is exactly the same thing except I’m not doing it daily, and seem so far to be making small incremental gains. Before, when I stalled I continued daily for 6 weeks and never made any progress whatsoever, which suggests that there is something about this routine in which the timing needs to be in sync with the Inflammation/Proliferation/Remodelling (IPR) cycle.

I know it was requested not to use speculation in this thread, but here it is anyway because something is becoming very clear to me:

Each day routines such as 2on/1off, 5on/2off etc need to be factored along with their intensity in order to work progressively with the above “IPR” cycle. If you do a workout it starts with the inflammation part which is normally between 1 and 3 days depending on degree of trauma. Overlapping the tail end of that is the proliferation stage which transforms into the remodelling stage which can be months or even years. Every time we do an exercise we are kicking off a new IPR cycle which is on top of the existing one. If remodelling is occuring and we change the tissues at ground zero to an inflammatory one, then the other stages will be compromised and progress cannot be made.

I’m not saying that this is *the* way, but I would say that it is the most simple way of finding your bodys rhythm by removing the timing issue (since it varies depending on what the ruler says) and by keeping the overlap of IPR cycles to a minimum (since you’re not doing significant damage in the first place). We are all posting progress and routines at various stages of our careers and wondering what is best. We’re not getting any smarter about it because there is so much noise in the information.

I like this routine because it’s simple, safe, time efficient and (so far) productive. Knowing what to do and whether it’s too much or too little is easy because you’re using a ruler as your guide and time as your gass pedal. I’m still looking to build the holy grail supplement or device, but in the meantime I’ll continue doing what I’m doing as it has a nice reward almost every week, and if it isn’t working the action is to do less!

I’m going on holiday the day after tomorrow so there’ll be a gap in the routine, but I’ll pick it up again when I return. I may do some stretches in the shower about mid week just to keep some consistancy.

Last edited by Shiver : 12-31-2004 at .

I think it is going to boil down to the amount of tissue trauma will determine the time needed to recover.

It is apparent that many different levels of trauma can cause growth.

The trick is to determine when you are ready for the NEXT re-stimulation. That is where I think the PI’s come in.

For example it has taken me over a week to almost completely recover from the one day that I did clamped pumping about 5 times in one day. As I have stated I lost 1/2 inch,and most of my morning and nite wood.

I have spent the week doing just some moderately light jelques and only now has morning and nite wood come back to high levels. I haven’t used the pump in several days so I don’t know where length is at, but last time I did a light 5 minute pump session, I had recovered over 1/4 in back.

So, bottom line is I guess you need to determine which level of force is needed for you to obtain growth, but you MUST keep an eye on PI’s or you can get WAY into over stressing your unit and see no gains or worse yet, lose progress you have already made. I suspect part of the benefit of a prolonged lay off is it may take that long to recover from prolonged over traumatizing your unit.

On a personal note, I am really starting to think that the most effective mechanism for growth is low level daily stress to the unit. Never going to a point where PI’s diminish, actually you should see them improve!

I am thinking that perhaps the ideal is to slightly stretch the tissue, just enough to expand it past its current levels, but not enough to cause inflammation.

If you can avoid the inflammatory response, deconditioning may never be needed, you would not get the “toughening” and it should minimize a growth limiting response from the accumulation of scar tissue.

Shiver, excellent post…keep it up and thanks!

I am now thinking the question to ask those who have made excellent gains is,” while you were in the stage of making excellent gains, what was happening with your nite and morning wood, as well as flaccid hang during the day?’”

I suspect the answer will be, that during that time, they had excellent nite and morning wood, and I further suspect that the daily flaccid hang was also excellent.

I have noticed that if I jelque just about right, that I get a contraction reaction for about 30 minutes, then my cock will fluff up and I will have excellent flaccid hang all day.

If I overdo the stimulation, my cock will be in a contracted state most of the day.

I believe this may be an excellent PI’s to make note of.

When I busted that small vein on my penis, it was interesting to watch its response to injury. At first the area of injury shrunk way down,and stayed that way for several days. Then it slowly started to open up to its normal width, but the areas right above the actually blow out opened first with the injured area returning to its normal width last. Now it looks completely normal, but continues to slowly expand its width along with the rest of the veins as I continue my PE.

I think that that is a microcosmic example of how our penis responds to stimulation. Too much and you get an inflammatory response with contraction, that if left to completely repair will return to its normal size or slightly bigger. If the stress is below the level of causing inflammation, there can be a slow steady expansion.

Overall, I think the more PI’s that we can note, that are valid, the easier it will be to learn to steer our rountines into a productive direction and keep it there.



There are many levels of PE intensity that seem to get results, I just think that if you go for intense workouts then you’ll have to do progressively tougher things to keep making the gain (eg. Hanging vs Jes). If inflammation is caused, then the area is flooded with various glycosaminoglycans. The sulphated ones are the short term scaffolding and the non sulphated one is the ‘medium’ in which they float. That is why after a workout you might see a good fluff, but it’s also a sign that there will be some strengthening of the tissues in progress. Connective tissues under normal operation have very low turnover and extremely low blood access. After trauma they become more permiable to get nutrients and growth factors in for damage repair.

Imho, the trick is not to outpace the process, or recreate the tears daily, but to not induce the state in the first place. Growth could still occur, but you would see diminishing returns from ever greater effort. As I wrote above I did the stretching exercise for 6 weeks after cessation of gains, which was only a few minutes per day yet which got me no further result. I believe this was because there was an IPR ‘traffic jam’ or gridlock. More trauma could be viewed as a bigger tailback. Reducing the speed seems to allow more orderly and predictable progress, but it’s a little to early in the experiment to call it a fact yet.

PI’s like erection may not be sensitive enough to limit overwork. I have rarely worked hard enough to affect erection, and what I’m doing now is nowhere even close to affecting it. If there are erection difficulties following PE then I would take that as a code red, but lack of difficulties doesn’t mean the opposite. It’s a process that doesn’t rely on tunica, although CC permiability due to trauma may be one reason for ED.

I don’t mean to interrupt the flow of this thread, but I need to ask Sparky something.
Sparks, have you recently tripled your caffeine intake?

Holy Smokes! It’s like you’re doing lines, and drinking cappuccino. |-{

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgh! ~Howard Dean Illustrations & Diagrams PE -- What's it all about? Read this.

Maybe we can organize this somehow. I have already added some columns to my PE log in excel. Here’s how I’m looking at it:

First I made a list of “variables”: these are all the things that we do, and can change or modify.


1. Heat: your heating time and method
2. Method: the exercise(s) used, and any related data (like how much weight you use, for hanging; or how much vacuum pressure used in pumping)
3. Time: the length of your sessions, an how many sets (if you break it up into “sets”)
4. On Days
5. Off Days

Then I Listed the PI’s.


1. Ache feeling after session
2. Morning wood
3. Tingling
4. Flaccid hang
5. Measurements (I broke this down into a monthly “regular” measurement after a rest period, and an “in tube” stretched measurement)

How about that? Use or don’t use whatever applies to you. What else could go in? Shiver mentions “stretchy and stiff” too, when gains are available. That might indicate the best times to PE.

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All truth goes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self evident. -Schopenhauer

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. -Richard Dawkins

Using that format, here’s my routine:

Heat: 6”x2” (LxD) Infrared tube at 45 degrees C, with home built head vacuum unit attached to 1.25 kg weight. 30 minutes.

Method: (Immediately out of tube as fast as possible while heat remains):
1 minute stretch in all directions helicopter style.
1 minute stretched U bends along full length in each direction.
1 minute 90 stretch against a ruler, and record maximal length attained. If lengths start to diminish then stop before 1 minute.

Time: as above

On days: every 3rd day if progress is made.

Off days: Minimum 2 days, preferably 3 (twice per week basically). Add one additional day to this if the last session was unproductive. Keep adding an extra day if no gains attained.

PI’s: Measurement is covered in the ‘Off days’ variable. No other effects have been noted.

First of all, thanks for the responses!

Ramrod, it’s because I am truly excited by this concept, and I really feel that this may bring significant breakthroughs for us dick pullers!


Yes! Excellent, this is EXACTLY the direction I’m trying to to with this. If more of those that have had a DEFINITE excellent growth period would kick in with WHAT THEY OBSERVED DURING THAT TIME, it would be very valuable information.

Are you finding this info helpful to help you develop a productive program?

I have recently been noticing that after a workout of jelquing, that in about 15-30 minutes I get shrinkage to my unit. I further noticed that after a moderate workout, after about an additional 30 minutes my penis “fluffs out” and I have excellent flaccid hang all day.

I tried a mild workout today, and I had NO shrinkage, and still have been getting the excellent flaccid.

Further, I now seemed to have fully recovered from my overdoing it day (over a week ago) and my erectile quality last nite when having sex with Mrs Sparkyx was probably one of the best I’ve ever had.

So Shiver, your contribution to PI’s are;

1) 1 minute 90 stretch against a ruler, and record maximal length attained. If lengths start to diminish then stop before 1 minute.
2) every 3rd day if progress is made.

So what you are saying is that erectile changes are not sensitive enough for someone like you, so you find frequent measurement is more accurate?

If I’ve stated that correctly, then my only question is how do you deal with the problem of margin of error factor. Surely measurement has a margin of error for most guys of a least a couple to several mm’s? I believe flaccid stretch is probably the most accurate (other than erect measurement in the tube), which is what you seem to be using.

So for others who wish to use this approach, how do you suggest dealing with it, so as to render your observations valid and therefore helpful?

To others out there reading this, especially if you have had excellent gains, please send in you observations of your PI’s. What we are talking about is erectile changes, flaccid hang, size changes, how you unit felt and looked after a productive session, how you knew when to do your next workout, what indicators you had to lay off for a day or so, etc.

So far I think that we are developing some excellent guidelines, and I personally seem to be benefiting from using these PI’s. I will know for sure in a few days when I get back into a tube to measure under 5 in hg.

Before I overdid it about 1 1/2 weeks ago, I had gained almost a 1/4 inch in a space of a few weeks, and I believe with these guidelines to help guide my force application…more gains await!



I was re-reading your post.

I seem to have a very sensitive unit to stress. My morning and nite wood responses rapidly to my workout, I quicky see a decrease if I over do it even a little. Flaccid hang also is a good indicator for me.

Measurement I believe is an EXCELLENT and accurate PI. The only problem is in application. As you know it is very easy to get it wrong, certainly it has a margin of error of at least a few millimeters. Thats why I like to measure in tube at 5 in hg with a hard erection. This seems to give me my most accurate read, even then I treat 1/8 th of an inch with a suspicious eye until it progresses past it, and starts approaching 1/4 inch.

So, if you have a good protocol for measuring, present it here, I’m sure it would be beneficial to those who don’t have any other sensitive PI’s.




If my unit is stressed then I have very variable measurements. So… I don’t stress my unit :)

Before even a mild workout my unit might measure something variable, but IR along with low stress is the key. Having measured with the same steel ruler for hundreds of days, I’ve developed a stance and grip that are very familiar to me. I am confident just by pulling it that I can predict within the mm where it will land. Actually I can do it closer than that, but mm is already splitting hairs.

If you are training a conventional routine then mm measurements are worse than useless as there are too many factors at play, which will only confuse the observer and not provide a clear path of action (which is what I believe you are mapping out with your PI methods). I like to keep it as simple as possible, but not more so.

Imho PI’s are a great thing to develop for damage training, as it is akin to a body builder learning to know his body and adapt his routine to suit the feedback. The routine I am doing is more like going into the gym and holding a warmup weight for a couple of minutes then going home, so PI’s of that nature are not really appropriate.

The body is adapting every day even in untrained people, it’s only those that pump iron that really notice and use them.


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