Thunder's Place

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Thoughts on PE from johndough

Originally Posted by bohm
Why do you disregard the Andromedical/University of Turin studies? You don’t trust the “no conflict of interest” statement? There are also a few other extender studies if you look through pubmed. Which members questioned the studies and what reasons were given? I think the facts that it is a fsl gain and not listed as an erect gain is a fair one though. I trust the studies (with the limitation of fsl gain).

I believe Thunder was one who did as was another member who claimed to be a statistician who disputed the methodology. There is actually a thread on it. I believe the Andromedical studies were conducted through a lab they employed correct? That was my understanding, so I found that to be a conflict of interest. If I am incorrect about the Andromedical studies please let me know, its been months since I searched for them, but that is what I recall. I do know the FDA shut them down, so they didn’t consider their studies legitimate enough to prevent them from getting the axe. I’m surprised Joel Kaplan of Kaplan pumps hasn’t received it yet as he got his FDA warning a few years back for not having research backing his claims. As for fsl, I’m not sure if its a good proxy or not for erect length. I posted on the other page that someone claimed the Wessells size study found it to be a good proxy. I didn’t read the full study; therefore, I can’t verify that claim. However, I think fsl loses my faith once the penis has been stretched significantly because I believe the elastic potential of the tissue can be reduced without increasing overall size significantly. I can see this personally when stretching out my penis, the flaccid stays longer temporarily, yet no significant effect on my erection. Basically going from grower to shower that would be my assumption, but I would like to see why researchers feel fsl is a good proxy.

Originally Posted by johndough123
I do know the FDA shut them down, so they didn’t consider their studies legitimate enough to prevent them from getting the axe.


FastSize was shutdown, not AndroMedical. Andropenis is recognised by the FDA as a type 2 medical device. They haven’t been shut down either.

U.S. Marshals today seized $346,954.43 worth of FastSize Extender devices


I'm a big fan of 50 Cent, or as we call him in Zimbabwe, four hundred million dollars.


Last edited by Tossed Salad : 01-12-2011 at .

Originally Posted by 17ml
Are you saying hanging and pumping are a waste of time?

One of those PE “doesn’t work” anti-gurus.

Originally Posted by johndough123
There is no anti-penis enlargement conspiracy or bias in the medical community as some members like to suggest.

No, but every now and then we do seem to get a poster with a decidedly anti-PE slant, lol.

Originally Posted by johndough123
Any functional length gains are most likely due to stretching of the suspensory ligament with most erect length being illusory as the erection angle deceases.

Dear Jonny, does this mean that my gains are delusional? I am not a big gainer by any means. Got my inch in length and got lazy. But my erection angle is unchanged. Please help!

Originally Posted by Ressistance
but just experience-based facts doesn´t mean anything, there have to be a scientific explanation, if doesn´t, it just can be treated as a myth.

By experienced based facts are you perhaps referring to life ? :rolleyes: Many thousands of guys have experienced a bigger wang thanks to these forums, and now enjoy the myth made real.

Originally Posted by johndough123
As for the information from “gurus” I take it for what it is, a random person making claims on the Internet with no real evidence to support his claims. We barely have any photos that could be considered real evidence on any of the PE forums despite hundreds of thousands of practitioners. That alone should tell you something.

You win! The PE, it does nothing.

Originally Posted by johndough123
I’ve read the forums for months and tracked posts to find very little evidence despite being optimistic. I’m still searching and want this to be real it’s why I still go through the threads regarding enlargement.

OK, ball busting aside. A very serious question for JD: Do you believe that carefully done, hands on PE, is dangerous? If not, what the fuck is your point? All the credit in the world on doing research before hand. But that time you spent not doing PE could have given you all the evidence you need. So seriously sir; WTF?!? Go and do some PE, gain +1”, then come back and tell us that you didn’t actually because of some study you read.

Originally Posted by irishjim
I’m sure you don’t mean to come across as arrogant

and a passive aggressive arrogance at that. As my operator friends used to say, “It isn’t arrogance if you can back it up.” But he is being arrogant about a “prove me wrong, I dare you!”, opinion.

Originally Posted by johndough123
Matutinal_euphony, you state PE works for you in a particular capacity, thanks its been noted, but

JD, I understand that you feel like everyone is jumping on you. You know, what with everyone jumping on you and all. But statements like the above only feed into the attempts of certain moderators to sneakily plant the meme that you are arrogantly passive aggressive.

Originally Posted by johndough123
I’m not trying to be rude

No, no, you are not trying by any means. It is like some god given gift with you, isn’t it?

Originally Posted by johndough123
Plato’s allegory of the cave, which you are referring to as a limitation of science, but the same assertion applies to ALL interpretations of reality

Very true. Also a very concrete allegory in this case. Any of the guys here would be more than willing to escort you from the fire to outside, as long as you are willing to walk the walk. Unless and until you are willing to try PE for 3-4 months this is just a drama queen dance. Kinda like going to skydiving classes with the intent to argue that parachutes violate the laws of physics and that all of the skydivers are delusional. Doesn’t mater if you were captain of the debate team with heaps of prepared studies proving your points. They have those silly, useless, experienced based facts…of jumping out of an air-o-plain with a parachute.

Yes, I am being a dick. But the following point is dead serious and I hope that you can look past the fact that I am a dick. Before you need to deal with creatures operating under the delusion that their life experiences count for shit, (lets call them patients or even people )? You damn well need to go back to freshman level courses and start addressing the glaring hole in your professional toolbox. Start with Bedside Manner 101.

Because god help you if you intend to be anything other than a specialist/researcher with a socially adept assistant to act as a buffer. At least for now.

Originally Posted by johndough123
I feel that people can make mistakes in measurement and can misinterpret a lowered erection angle for length gains and swelling for girth gains.

I absolutely agree. Add up all our guys with advanced degrees in medicine, engineering, and the like that have gained over an inch in length. You know, guys that you yourself would probably agree to be highly unlikely to make such an error in measurement. Strong triple digits easy; probably 4 figures. I always round down and then some. so all of those guys are delusional.

Originally Posted by johndough123
I didn’t call members of this forum liars, I said I believe…

that you are all so stoopid that not a fucking one of you could measure your penises correctly.

No, not an actual quote. But how can you not see that 8 out of 10 guys are reading it that way?

Originally Posted by johndough123
The reason you can’t address my point is…

Actually, the reason that no one can be bothered to address your points, is that we have all jumped from the plane. The fact that you can prove parachutes don’t work we find to be rather amusing.

Originally Posted by johndough123
I’m not trying to come across as arrogant

That not trying thing again. ;) But hey, I have to be very careful to keep it dialed down or I come across as arrogant. Depending on the topic and type of interaction; exceptionally arrogant. O:-)


Running a Massive Co-Front.

Stop feeding the troll - who the fuck cares, if you have done PE for awhile like I have and now have a fat, long meat ax when before it was just average it really doesn’t matter what anyone says or studies ‘prove’ or ‘disprove’.

Originally Posted by m0ses
Stop feeding the troll - who the fuck cares, if you have done PE for awhile like I have and now have a fat, long meat ax when before it was just average it really doesn’t matter what anyone says or studies ‘prove’ or ‘disprove’.


He is not exactly a troll, is he? But as 17ml pointed out, probably best to get back to the original topic now, although the main question has been answered by a few people quite well, there isn’t much more to add with our current general knowledge.

And I have to say, I liked your reply iamaru.

Regarding the first pumping study cited, anyone familiar with the concept of statistical power will realize that a sample size of 37 may well have been too small to demonstrate statistical significance in this study. In fact, an increase of .3 cm in stretched length within 6 months which such a minimal regimen (a total of 1 hour of pumping per week, assuming the test subjects were actually compliant) is great enough to suggest to me that a better study with more subjects, higher statistical power, and a longer observation period might well have achieved statistical significance

Secondly, the majority of men who claim to have made significant permanent gains with pumping, not only did so by pumping more than 1 hour per week, they also combined pumping with manual exercises, and 6 months is not a realistic period of time to expect to see significant gains with a pumping only regimen.

And I see no reason whatsoever to assume that pumping would be the most effective way to stress the tunica albuginea.

And if it is not possible to induce remodeling of the tunica albuginea, how do you explain those individuals who have made very substantial permanent girth gains? This is not accomplished by stretching ligaments. I suppose johndough would say this is due to “swelling”. But if one has gained over half an inch of circumference and this remains even when one has not done any form of PE for weeks or months, it is clear this is not the result of some temporary edema.

Originally Posted by redbear52
Regarding the first pumping study cited, anyone familiar with the concept of statistical power will realize that a sample size of 37 may well have been too small to demonstrate statistical significance in this study. In fact, an increase of .3 cm in stretched length within 6 months which such a minimal regimen (a total of 1 hour of pumping per week, assuming the test subjects were actually compliant) is great enough to suggest to me that a better study with more subjects, higher statistical power, and a longer observation period might well have achieved statistical significance

That is nowhere near Avocet’s routine.

Quote
Secondly, the majority of men who claim to have made significant permanent gains with pumping, not only did so by pumping more than 1 hour per week, they also combined pumping with manual exercises, and 6 months is not a realistic period of time to expect to see significant gains with a pumping only regimen.

True, few try pumping only.

Quote
And I see no reason whatsoever to assume that pumping would be the most effective way to stress the tunica albuginea.

Yes, an assumption.

Quote
And if it is not possible to induce remodeling of the tunica albuginea, how do you explain those individuals who have made very substantial permanent girth gains? This is not accomplished by stretching ligaments. I suppose johndough would say this is due to “swelling”. But if one has gained over half an inch of circumference and this remains even when one has not done any form of PE for weeks or months, it is clear this is not the result of some temporary edema.

True again. Doesn’t the med lit have reports of priapism causing enlargemnt? Surely that has nothing to do with vacuum or temporary swelling.

Good post redbear.


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Thanks. Yes, megalophallus with preservation of erectile function, as a consequence of sickle cell anemia, has been reported to result from permanent remodeling of the tunica albuginea during episodes of priapism. Here is an abstract of a case report: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/…4?dopt=Abstract

All right, I appreciate your tone. Sorry if I was rude.

Originally Posted by johndough123
I am primarily interested in the biological mechanism and the research that has been conducted in regards to PE.

Now, what you are looking for does not exist. Don’t let that dissuade you from PE. Here at Thunder’s, our anecdotes are all you’re going to get for now. People develop their own styles and combinations on PE, and in order to do one of these studies you’d have to prescribe exactly homogeneous programs across the board. Because of the very slow nature of PE, along with the difficulty of monitoring its progress and upholding the integrity of the study, these studies simply have not been done. It isn’t easy to find participants for “hardcore PE” which is what tends to produce results. Here at Thunder’s, we could gather up 100 participants in a solid study, but we would have dictate what exercises they did, which could lead to some debate. For example, if I said they should do X & Y, someone else may disagree. Now, what if someone injured themself? Would it be my fault? One of the important things about PE is developing the ability to listen to your body so that you can understand when you need to increase pressure, and when you need to lay off. This is a very personal thing that cannot be enforced and upheld in general terms. In other words, everyone is different and PE has to be tailored to your individual body and lifestyle. Some people may not be able to do every exercise available for certain reasons, although they can still put together a program that is effective for them. But I would be willing to say that if we had 100 newbies do the beginner program for four months in a study, there would be measurable gains. If the results weren’t convincing though, it could be that a good portion of these guys didn’t do everything properly, or weren’t completely dedicated and focused on the task at hand. And how could we prevent that? Send someone into their home to do the measuring and whatnot? Have someone supervise them while they jelq and stretch?


Recognize.

Originally Posted by Tossed Salad
So let me get this straight.

You’re not saying it doesn’t work based on examples of people having made gains, you’re saying it doesn’t work because there’s no mainstream science to back it up?


There’s a concise version of my feelings! :-p


Recognize.

Originally Posted by northmiamitop

That is a very common viewpoint. There doesn’t need to be a study that proves something is false. Until there is a study that proves it is true, you can safely assume it is false. Doesn’t matter if it actually works. <shrug>

And until it is “proven” true and widely accepted, only a select few will enjoy its benefits.


Recognize.

Originally Posted by johndough123

I’m still hung up on why the pump studies did not see results if this is truly possible.

Get over that tiny little shitty study.


Recognize.

Originally Posted by johndough123

The entire concept of permanent expansion of the tunica albuginea is based on its being stressed and forced to remodel. I can’t think of any other mechanism that could put more pressure on the tunica and induce its expansion beyond typical capacity than pumping.

First off, pumping is one of the least dependable methods for PE. I don’t know if you relied on that heavily in your PE’ing, but it’s just wrong to expect a pump to offer lasting gains. It may in combination with other forms of PE, but alone pumping will do little more than swelling like you mentioned. However, there have been several cases where people gained permanently from pumping. Moving forward, let me tell you something about my Corpora Spongiosum: for some reason it was very underdeveloped in me when I began PE. As the years have gone on, it has grown into a monster. Not only is it thick and fat, but it has stretched all the way into my glans. So what began as nothing turned into a monster. That is one small glimpse into my success with PE. That’s not swelling, man- it’s real gains in girth and specifically that little tube on the bottom of my dick. I’ve also made excellent gains in length, but we won’t go there right now. My dick looks and feels COMPLETELY different than it did when I started PE. It’s not just swelling, I never had a curved unit, it’s not just because of improvement in erection quality; it’s just a bigger fatter longer nicer cock for me and my partner to enjoy.


Recognize.

Originally Posted by johndough123
I believe Thunder was one who did as was another member who claimed to be a statistician who disputed the methodology. There is actually a thread on it. I believe the Andromedical studies were conducted through a lab they employed correct? That was my understanding, so I found that to be a conflict of interest. If I am incorrect about the Andromedical studies please let me know, its been months since I searched for them, but that is what I recall. I do know the FDA shut them down, so they didn’t consider their studies legitimate enough to prevent them from getting the axe.

No, the Andromedical studies are different ones. Read the pdf I linked carefully. From the article:

“Based on previous experience, the penile extender provokes a linear and timedependent gain in length of≈0.5 cm per month, according to the manufacturer’s leaflet. By contrast, we documented a maximum elongating effect after the first month that progressively decreased in the subsequent intervals. It is possible that the shorter daily use of the device in the present study compared with other studies might explain these discrepancies.”

CONFLICT OF INTEREST: None declared.

http://www.andropenis.com/pdf/en/st…short_penis.pdf

My impression is Gontero et al. have nothing to do with Andropenis. Can anyone show otherwise?


Starting Size: April, 28, 2010: NBPEL-7" Girth-6" (base, MSG, glans)

Currently: BPEL-8" NBPEL-7.25" Girth-6.25" (base)/6.125" (MSG)/6.125" (glans)

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