Thoughts on PE from johndough

PE is all about Magic!

Matutinal_euphony, you state PE works for you in a particular capacity, thanks its been noted, but if you are not wanting to contribute to a discussion regarding the evidence for PE then you do not have to because you are correct in stating that you don’t have to prove anything to me. I’m not trying to be rude, but you are not addressing my argument or any of the points I have made, rather you are simply making assertions about PE without backing up your claims. I am reading what you are posting and respecting your opinion, but I am primarily interested in the biological mechanism and the research that has been conducted in regards to PE. I have a science based degree and am pursuing medical school, so that is the perspective I buy into even though you may disagree with it. I do understand the philosophical underpinnings regarding Plato’s allegory of the cave, which you are referring to as a limitation of science, but the same assertion applies to ALL interpretations of reality including your own. I’m not interested in having that type of discussion as it is my opinion that a such a discourse is not constructive in an assessment of the evidence for penis enlargement. As for people being “crazy” in this forum, I did not allege that you or the vast majority of members on this site displayed any such negative characteristic. I feel that people can make mistakes in measurement and can misinterpret a lowered erection angle for length gains and swelling for girth gains. If you want to discuss the studies I posted or counter my points, then please add to the discussion.

So let me get this straight.

You’re not saying it doesn’t work based on examples of people having made gains, you’re saying it doesn’t work because there’s no mainstream science to back it up?

That is a very common viewpoint. There doesn’t need to be a study that proves something is false. Until there is a study that proves it is true, you can safely assume it is false. Doesn’t matter if it actually works. <shrug>

As for pictures, I did view the pictures on this forum and others. I am still not convinced that the length and girth gains are not what I stated above. I praise Braindrain on his documentation, he is the best anecdotal evidence I have seen. However, he was within the age range of late stage puberty when he started at age 19. Also, his results are also not typical of what I have seen most members claim.

I’m still hung up on why the pump studies did not see results if this is truly possible. If there was a legit pump study that showed permanent results my opinion would change. The entire concept of permanent expansion of the tunica albuginea is based on its being stressed and forced to remodel. I can’t think of any other mechanism that could put more pressure on the tunica and induce its expansion beyond typical capacity than pumping. If it didn’t work then I’m not convinced the tunica’s fiber matrix can be remodeled to cause significant enlargement because the force vector is multi-directional in a vacuum meaning any if any part of the tissue parameter that can permanently expand and remodel will do so under those conditions.
Ligament stretching may cause some length increase, but given that most surgeons don’t even claim any erect length gains after prescribing a post op hanging routine makes me doubt hanging/stretching as a viable means of producing real length gains independent of erection angle changes.

Tossed Salad, “You’re not saying it doesn’t work based on examples of people having made gains, you’re saying it doesn’t work because there’s no mainstream science to back it up?” No, I’m saying there were two pumping studies that tested penis enlargement either as a primary or a secondary parameter and neither study found gains despite using a protocol similar to the most popular one used in pumping: Avocet’s pumping routine. I feel that pumping is the best mechanism to induce any form of tunica remodeling and if it has been shown not to work in studies then I don’t believe tunica remodeling occurs in any manner significant enough to cause permanent penis enlargement. Ligament stretching may lengthen the penis, but I have my doubts as stated in above posts.

So basically what you are saying is “PE doesn’t work because science hasn’t proven it does”.

IrishJim, I accidentally passed over your post otherwise I would have responded earlier, so I apologize. I’m not trying to come across as arrogant, I do come from a scientific background and that is where my perspective is based. I do respect people’s opinions and joined this site and others because I found it difficult to believe this many people could mistake real gains. However, after months of reading posts, viewing pictures, and reading studies I do believe most cases are mismeasurements and misinterpretations of gains from lowered erection angles (length) and swelling (girth). I’m not here to challenge anyone, if you feel comfortable doing PE and are satisfied with your results then that is good and I am not here to interrupt anyone’s routine. I don’t think anyone should take offense to discussions regarding the evidence for PE, it is what it is, a discussion. I’ve tried a couple times to have such discussions and they usually dead end without many people addressing my points, which I think is unfortunate.

Tossed Salad, “So basically what you are saying is “PE doesn’t work because science hasn’t proven it does”.” Science tested pumping and found no evidence of permanent enlargement. I don’t know how to more clearly restate that comment. In addition, I was not convinced by the anecdotal evidence either.

John, what is your agenda? You say PE doesn’t work, so why are you still on this forum? Why are you trying to be the contrarian here? People come onto this site for personal reasons, let them figure out if it works or not.

I admire your logic based approach to this, but you’re calling a lot of people liars - I seriously don’t understand what kind of kick a guy would get out of being on a forum for 2 years just to update his signature to show other Internet readers that he gained an inch in length (for example).

Why am I getting more responses that are in disbelief of my doubt of PE or expressions of emotional uproar than are countering my points?

My agenda is to have a discussion on the evidence of PE, which I have tried to have unsuccessfully multiple times on this forum because almost no one will actually address my points. I am not happy with the size of my penis, phalloplasty is not standardized or recognized to be safe or effective, and I want to increase the size of my penis because I feel it would make me feel more sexually secure. I’m here to assess the possibility of PE without surgery and want to discuss the evidence. I didn’t call members of this forum liars, I said I believe there have been mistakes and misinterpretations made in what are considered results. I am not going to respond to any more comments that are not in regards to evidence for penis enlargement.

The reason why we can’t address your point is because you want scientific reinforcement, which we can’t provide since we haven’t performed a controlled study. You put together very strong walls of logic that we can only penetrate by looking down at our own dicks, and thinking about the sizes they were before. I trust consensus on web forums, I have for all my life accessing Internet forums, because I am believer that people can’t be delusional or full of shit all together. The anecdotes on this forum were enough for me to begin PE, and then see changes myself.

You suffered an injury, now you’re looking for some type of validation that will someone will spring at you so you can try PE again, that’s what I feel from you - but you won’t get any because the only validation we have to give you is our words (and some pictures too, but who cares about those?) - but all you do is look for ways to debate, debate, debate.

Here’s a question to you, john, in regards to evidence for penis enlargement:

Why would a penis not adapt to stresses?

Why do you disregard the Andromedical/University of Turin studies? You don’t trust the “no conflict of interest” statement? There are also a few other extender studies if you look through pubmed. Which members questioned the studies and what reasons were given? I think the facts that it is a fsl gain and not listed as an erect gain is a fair one though. I trust the studies (with the limitation of fsl gain).

The reason you can’t address my point is because you refuse to read the studies that were posted and address the logical inconsistencies in how a study with the same mechanisms used here did not produce results under a controlled setting. I do not trust consensus in web forums, if you choose to so that is your choice, I do not see why you have to try to derail this conversation because I do not feel there is enough evidence for me to be fully convinced. The anecdotes on this forum are not enough for me, so I am politely asking for people to show me evidence and address what reasons why the pumping studies did not find results. I would prefer if people who are not responding to my points of debate please stop posting off topic post as they are derailing the discussion. My dorsal vein got distended and inflamed after jelqing, so I stopped. I experienced no issue with stretching and did not use my pump, nor felt they posed the same risk. I continued to stretch, but quit stretching and got rid of my pump after reading the pump study listed in the prior posts. If you don’t want to debate my points, then please stop posting in the thread because this is turning into a personal witch hunt instead of discussing a debate. This happens often when someone questions or expresses doubts about PE. If you think there is ample evidence here then fine. Its simply your opinion and I’m respecting it, so please respect mine. If you are not interested in debating my points addressed earlier then we don’t have anything to discuss.