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thoughtfulgold's Gains Theory: What mechanisms do they use and how do they differ?

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thoughtfulgold's Gains Theory: What mechanisms do they use and how do they differ?

Hi there, TG again. Today let’s talk about the nitty gritty about gaining. I mean we all know if you use your exercises and devices right, in a safe way often enough with enough rest…it shows on the ruler, right? But…why is that? We know what we can do to cause gains but…why do they happen the way they do? Why is the Newbie Gains Phase so different than the rest of anyone’s PE career? What parts of the body change with what exercises? When do gains occur? While I am not a doctor…I have been at PE a while and this is my personal theory on the topic and from what I’ve been able to observe through the gains of others.

What is detailed below is not the gospel of PE. There will be dissenting opinions and this is fine. This is the observation and theory of thoughtfulgold and has served me pretty well but it is only that.

1. Q: First, let’s talk about Newbie Gains. What are they?
A: Popularly coined because these gains, particularly length gains, happen early on in anyone’s PE career…Newbie Gains seem to result primarily from the stretching of the penis’ suspensory ligaments and the penis appearing larger as its health becomes more emphasized through gains or increases in Erection Quality to a much higher level than before. These gains can range from 1/4” to over 1.5” over the course of up to 18 months.

To expand more on this, gains from simple stretching of the suspensory ligaments profit from the release of more of the “inner penis” inside of your body. As what you can see and can press a ruler to the pubic bone to measure is not actually your entire penis. By stretching those ligaments you access more of the inner penis and the more PE you do that pulls the penis shaft away from the body the more those ligaments stretch and remain stretched to their maximum. Usually Newbie Gains end because those ligaments are no longer granting additional gains via stretching.

Erection Quality gains are simple in nature. I personally never got an erection over 6/10 in hardness before PE. Reaching maximum hardness was already a difference in length I never had personally seen (my girth remained the same as my EQ increased at first.) Changes in erection quality happen most in the beginning of your PE career as penis health generally remains high while you perform PE.

There is also “steel cord” theory, of a dorsal ligament that is atop the penis that sometimes is so incredibly tough it will retard your gains because it will not let you pull the penis out of position and stretch the rest of the suspensory ligaments. I’m not well-versed on this but I do know that everyone doesn’t gain the same amount during Newbie Gains and everyone doesn’t have identical ligaments that are willing to give gains when the penis is pulled upon. With that being said, when Newbie Gains are exhausted it is usually because of changes in the suspensory ligaments that no longer allow for gains and this will usually result in a plateau and require a change in the routine and approach for further length gains in PE.

Gains that are lost after a brief time in PE are typically Newbie Gains. Continued PE maintenance and just PE in general will cement these ligament gains but this has to be tended to studiously, especially early on. This risk does drop the longer you do PE.

2. Q: If gains from stretching ligaments eventually are exhausted, how do you keep gaining?
A: Ligaments are not the only method by which the penis gains length. Additionally, the ligaments can be targeted again using a more advanced method but this is more up to the PE practitioner which discipline they wish to follow to achieve their goals.

3. Q: If ligaments aren’t the only method to gain length, what other methods are there?
A: Tissue growth. There are two main methods that I personally know of.

Small Traumas- small areas of damage in the tissue that the body will repair slightly larger and stronger. This will result in more actual penile tissue being present. This is the same mechanic that is used to build muscle tissue and when applied to the tunica, the flesh of the penis in a gentle, regular manner it will cause gradual and permanent gains as more tissue is generated from the stimuli used. Gains are usually experienced during the rest phase, when the body has time to heal. Usually the penis looks larger after the stimuli is completed. These methods share “a use in greater intensity to show gains” as the use of the exercise and device goes on.

Traction (time stretched to limit)- is by taking your penis close to the limit it can stretch and holding it there with your hands or a device. While being held there, the tissue of the penis generates more cells so that the tension on the penis is lessened as more cells fill in the strained area at the middle of the penis.This results in more reinforced penile tissue and a more stable stretched state that doesn’t relax and can be prompted to continue growing and generating new cells. Gains here are typically experienced as the stimuli is applied, to reduce the strain of said stimuli. Usually the penis looks larger while the stimuli is being applied. These methods usually share a goal of “as much time under tension as possible” and rely on more time to see gains. That term is one commonly used for Rod Style Traction Extenders and All Day Stretchers (ADS)

These means often work in tandem but usually when using any particular method one of these is more prevalent than the other. I’ll touch on that next.

Hybrid methods will cause a very notable stretch to limit while being used and also will push the penis past the limit to have to heal later. Using a hybrid method will cause the penis to appear larger during the exercise and after the exercise while it is healing, where gains may be received during either time. These methods can benefit from both increased duration and intensity but the increase of both with these methods carries extreme risk and must be carefully considered before being executed.

4. Q: What exercises and devices use which gaining mechanics?
A: This is a contentious point and subjective to me as the author from personal observation and observation of others (there’s that disclaimer again) but this is what I’ve got:

Primarily Small Trauma methods: Jelqing, most other manual exercises.

Primarily Traction methods: Rod style traction extenders, All Day Stretcher devices, Manual stretching, edging.

Hybrid methods: Clamping, hanging, pumping, Horse Squeeze 440, Extreme ULI

5. Q: What gain methods work the best and why?
A: This will change from person to person and vary with what stage they are in as far as their PE journey.

However, in my experience, I have noted that Small Trauma methods retain their effectiveness for the longest time overall.

So those guys who jelq literally their entire PE careers are onto something, there. *chuckles*

That Traction does well for Newbies and typically fades in effectiveness as time goes on and the penis becomes extremely pliable and the ligaments become increasingly taxed to their limits and toughened.

My personal experience made me leave my extender in the box years ago and I find only limited benefit in warming up with manual stretches and no gains from them at all.

Hybrid methods usually work better for those longer in PE as these methods will work on more conditioned and toughened tissues better without as much chance for injury. I usually warn Newbies away from these methods (especially pumping) because the injury chances are much higher and the chance of toughening the penis and losing out on Newbie gains is a very serious risk to take so early on.

Pumping is the most popular method for guys I’ve seen who have been into PE 5 years or longer and it appears to work even on some of the most large and conditioned units I’ve personally seen and in a notable way.

Hybrid methods also carry the highest potential intensity of any traumas that you can inflict on your penis. They must be used with care and without proper care can result in the most painful injuries in the fastest manner.

6. Q: What gain method works on what part of the penis?
A: Another contentious question. Typically, when applying each method they share some commonalities. Those will lead you to some answers of reasonable uniformity.

Traction and holding stress is common in manual stretching, extenders and stretchers. Thusly they pull the penis away from the body. This will stretch ligaments first, then stress transfers up the shaft of the penis until tissue elsewhere in the shaft relaxes to make the stretched shape into the new normal state. Ligament popping is common when doing stretches or using an extender or All Day Stretcher also.

Small trauma methods work by working on an area of the penis for a short time, stretching it and making it different. This is usually the Corpus Cavernosum chambers on the sides of the penis and the Corpus Spongium chamber on the bottom of the penis. Usually small traumas move the blood around the penis and force parts of these chambers to expand for a short time repeatedly, which will cause trauma the more repetitions you do that you can heal from in a larger state.

Hybrid methods also target the same chambers of the penis with the noted exception of hanging.

Hanging targets ligaments and the inner shaft like a stretcher and can cause gains at ligaments and the shaft depending on which is bearing the most force and being the most pliable at that time. It will depend on which hanging position you are using, how much weight and how well your penis bears the weight. This is discussed more in Hanging 101 but hanging benefits from both duration and intensity and this is why it is stressed, when increasing hanging sets, never to increase both time and weight at the same time. It is too dangerous and very hard to predict the results when changing both factors in this way.

7. Q: Why do you recommend stretching and small trauma methods first, especially to Newbies? I want to hang, pump and get BIG gains faster!

Mainly because to maximize efficiency, using all means available can get you big faster with less work! Traction/Stretching and Small Trauma methods offer a lot of reward with comparatively small risk and fatigue factors compared to Hybrid Methods. It simply isn’t mathematically effective to start at Hybrid Methods, toughen up your penis so that you can’t use Stretching methods or find much effect in Small Trauma methods and then have a penis that is conditioned, tough and plateaued inside of a year with next to no gains at all.

This is extremely common with people who hang and pump early on and find that they’ve toughened their ligaments and tunica to a point they cannot be deformed any further by any exercise or device within reason. This is why I never recommend hanging or pumping to someone new to PE. Also, why after these kinds of accidents or if you are just tired of hanging and pumping that it takes a long period of a month or more to decondition enough for lighter forces to affect your penis.

8. Q: What do you recommend I do? How should I look at this and use this information for myself?
A: I personally would go with Stretching and Small Traumas for as long as they are effective. If interested in using a Hybrid Method, use it sparingly so as to not overcondition yourself or run an excess injury risk early on. This lets you use as many varied techniques and devices as possible for a longer span of time in your PE career.

The last word on how your routine is done will be said by you, the PE practitioner. Perhaps this work has shed a bit of light on what you will do next, why what you are doing is or is not working or perhaps on what may work for you now. But decide what you want to do based on your needs, not what someone else is doing and finds effective.

I are not walking your journey for you. You are. Good luck


Now: 8.875" BPEL x 6.125" MSEG as of 8/12/2016 It's a long story but...

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm 7 years in and counting. Put the work in then the gains will come. All you have to do is keep the faith.

My only question after reading this is.. If your theory is correct, if the hanging and pumping and the other hybrid exercises toughen the penis and plateau gains, why would it be advised to ever do that group of exercise.

I guess what I’m getting at is whether its better to just do manuals forever. It seems some great gainers years later are still doing glorified newbie routines, while some have abandoned it completely

Originally Posted by 4YearsBigWeen
My only question after reading this is.. If your theory is correct, if the hanging and pumping and the other hybrid exercises toughen the penis and plateau gains, why would it be advised to ever do that group of exercise.

I guess what I’m getting at is whether its better to just do manuals forever. It seems some great gainers years later are still doing glorified newbie routines.

Because proper application of heavy torque stuff like pumping and hanging offers some of the biggest gain patterns in a small amount of time. Yes, many big gainers are doing nothing but jelq. However, if you look at guys like Titleist and Insitenex(or however his name is spelled and some other obscenely large guys they strictly pump and nothing else will even effect them anymore.

My issue with Hybrid Exercises is people attempt them too early when there are other options that are still working for them! Seems absolutely pointless to go that route when you haven’t exhausted all of the easier to do exercises and devices. Every guy I coach, I tell them this same stuff. Some still pump and hang, regardless what I say even early on in their PE endeavors. That’s up to them.

As far as your question? If you can keep doing nothing but manuals and see gains then do nothing but manuals and mop up the easy gains! Ganesh10in went from hanging back to nothing but stretching and continues to gain! But this is very uncommon to go back from hanging a suitcase off your penis (he actually did it, check his thread and you’ll see him mention it) to stretching by hand.

The thing is after about 4 or 5 years a lot of guys simply cannot gain from them anymore. Cannot or do not because they don’t decondition long enough. In either event, if you’re at a plateau long enough you seek something stronger to push you past it and that’s how a lot of veterans end up pumping and hanging. This is exactly how I ended up with my pump as the backbone of my routines. I simply don’t gain from stretching and traction devices anymore. While I do manuals, the Hybrid stuff really sets my routines off.

I definitely don’t advocate Hybrid methods, cuz the danger and the toughening factor is just really high and most people learn this the hard way once or twice before they get the hang of it (myself included). But they have a lot of actual power you can use and they offer some real potential to get big gains if you’re willing to mind the much higher risk factors. You gotta weigh those risks and benefits yourself though.


Now: 8.875" BPEL x 6.125" MSEG as of 8/12/2016 It's a long story but...

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm 7 years in and counting. Put the work in then the gains will come. All you have to do is keep the faith.

Ok thanks. That makes sense. You know, the methods here at thunders are so vast it is sometimes very easy to get lost as what to do after the first few months of newbie. I’ve been tossed around a bit trying to sort it all out.

I think I will continue along the manual route for the foreseeable future and see where I’m at At a later time. I’m getting tired reading through everyone’s routines all the time and feeling lost anyway. I don’t want to limit my gains by toughening my unit. I haven’t gotten any yet, but I’ll keep truckin.

You should write a book on PE.


Started 4-27-16: BPEL 6.06; MSEG 4.625; Base EG 4.88; Current: BPEL 6.5; MSEG 4.81; Base EG 5.0; Goal: BPEL at least 7.5; MSEG at least 5.25

"She takes, she fakes, she aches and makes love just like a woman. But she breaks just like a little girl." BD

Originally Posted by 707tractatus
You should write a book on PE.

He did just write a book! He even added chapters! Now post it on Kindle for only $0.99!

We can sum it up like this.
====================

1) Newb gains are stretching existing tissues and optimizing EQ, and maximizing what you already have. No additional mass (or it is masked by stretch-gains).
2) After newb gains are exhausted (stretch-gains), we enter actual added mass realm. Much slower. Probably on order of 0.5% additional mass per month, if that. Similar to body building, and based on personal healing powers. Wolverine would be HUGE.
3) Adding mass may require additional force over time, as tissues become conditioned to trauma. Again, similar to body-building.
4) Small traumas work best. Reason for this is that small trauma requires small rest periods (1-2 days). Large traumas require large rest periods (3-6 weeks). Thus, use small trauma, small rest. Sort of like working out.
5) So you should probably jelq.

Just wrote the Cliff’s Notes to the post (or so I hope). So many words…

- Saul

Originally Posted by 707tractatus
You should write a book on PE.

I full well may eventually. But free resources definitely limit this need. *chuckles*


Now: 8.875" BPEL x 6.125" MSEG as of 8/12/2016 It's a long story but...

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm 7 years in and counting. Put the work in then the gains will come. All you have to do is keep the faith.

Originally Posted by thoughtfulgold
Traction (time stretched to limit)- is by taking your penis close to the limit it can stretch and holding it there with your hands or a device. While being held there, the tissue of the penis generates more cells so that the tension on the penis is lessened as more cells fill in the strained area at the middle of the penis. This results in more reinforced penile tissue and a more stable stretched state that doesn’t relax and can be prompted to continue growing and generating new cells. Gains here are typically experienced as the stimuli is applied, to reduce the strain of said stimuli. Usually the penis looks larger while the stimuli is being applied. These methods usually share a goal of “as much time under tension as possible” and rely on more time to see gains. That term is one commonly used for Rod Style Traction Extenders and All Day Stretchers (ADS)

It would be interesting to bring this theory into a biological context. For example the full division process (cell cycle + mitosis) will take about 24 hours in a human cell. What does this mean for stretching? Does the stretching have to be applied for about 24 hours? Or do cells memorize stress and then launch the cell cycle even after the stretching?

Https://www.quora.com/How-fast-can-…through-mitosis

Originally Posted by thoughtfulgold
Hybrid methods: Clamping, hanging, pumping, Horse Squeeze 440, Extreme ULI

That’s just a personal side note - I bought a cable clamp and gave it a try. And I was shocked about how obviously this technique could severely damage my penis - which is why it’s now actually used for cables. I only consider soft applications like jelqing, stretching, rubber cock rings and vacuum pumps.

Thanks for the write up.

Originally Posted by saulgoode45
He did just write a book! He even added chapters! Now post it on Kindle for only $0.99!

We can sum it up like this.
====================

1) Newb gains are stretching existing tissues and optimizing EQ, and maximizing what you already have. No additional mass (or it is masked by stretch-gains).
2) After newb gains are exhausted (stretch-gains), we enter actual added mass realm. Much slower. Probably on order of 0.5% additional mass per month, if that. Similar to body building, and based on personal healing powers. Wolverine would be HUGE.
3) Adding mass may require additional force over time, as tissues become conditioned to trauma. Again, similar to body-building.
4) Small traumas work best. Reason for this is that small trauma requires small rest periods (1-2 days). Large traumas require large rest periods (3-6 weeks). Thus, use small trauma, small rest. Sort of like working out.
5) So you should probably jelq.

Just wrote the Cliff’s Notes to the post (or so I hope). So many words…

- Saul

*chuckles* Excellent synopsis. But you kinda left Hybrid gain methods out and their value…which it is certainly there, despite the significant increases in risk.

I may actually give Amazon a try, when it comes time to publish. Why not?


Now: 8.875" BPEL x 6.125" MSEG as of 8/12/2016 It's a long story but...

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm 7 years in and counting. Put the work in then the gains will come. All you have to do is keep the faith.

Thanks TG.. Very informative post! I’m a newbie and I’ve played around with several methods in my month of PE and I have a question that hopefully you or other members can help me out with. Can you please shed some light on how to tell if you have toughened the Ligs or Tunica and how long will this toughening last if indeed you have done so, Meaning is there a general time frame in which it is safe to resume PE and start to gain from a new starting point? Thanks in advance

Originally Posted by thoughtfulgold
*chuckles* Excellent synopsis. But you kinda left Hybrid gain methods out and their value…which it is certainly there, despite the significant increases in risk.

I may actually give Amazon a try, when it comes time to publish. Why not?

If ever you do, PM me. I am a published author and may be able to help. I have several books and shorts through traditional pub and small press.

- Saul

Originally Posted by dickerficker
It would be interesting to bring this theory into a biological context. For example the full division process (cell cycle + mitosis) will take about 24 hours in a human cell. What does this mean for stretching? Does the stretching have to be applied for about 24 hours? Or do cells memorize stress and then launch the cell cycle even after the stretching?

Https://www.quora.com/How-fast-can-…through-mitosis

I’m not a biologist, so this is guessing and based on what little I know about traction. But to my knowledge, the stimuli of stretching and holding it causes cell division. How long after the stimuli that cell division continues is hard to say. But stretching relies mostly on a sheer amount of time as a cumulative total to be effective so my best guess as a result is…that the length of the stimuli determines how many cells will divide during the next cycle, as far as stretching is concerned.

Obviously if you are stretching manually and total 5 minutes with your hands, assuming a 30 second stretching repetition X6 the mitosis would likely occur but for far less as far as the amount of cells given the command to divide during the next mitosis cycle.

Quote

That’s just a personal side note - I bought a cable clamp and gave it a try. And I was shocked about how obviously this technique could severely damage my penis - which is why it’s now actually used for cables. I only consider soft applications like jelqing, stretching, rubber cock rings and vacuum pumps.

Thanks for the write up.

Vaccum pumps are truly among the most dangerous of the devices. There’s a reason I included pumping and it’s because the sheer force of the pressures that a high quality pump can summon are easily able to rupture blood vessels and damage tissue in seconds. There are also pumping blister threads (this one is recent First Blister From Pumping)

If your pump has a gauge, you know exactly where you don’t want to experience more pressure and the pump can go well past that in all likelihood. And pumping can appear to be going well and in fact be going badly. Pumping is a GREAT tool and often feels GREAT but due to the stress it can put on the entire penis down to the ligaments is easily one of the most powerful device types.

Just be careful not to underestimate the device is my point.


Now: 8.875" BPEL x 6.125" MSEG as of 8/12/2016 It's a long story but...

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm 7 years in and counting. Put the work in then the gains will come. All you have to do is keep the faith.

Originally Posted by thoughtfulgold
Vaccum pumps are truly among the most dangerous of the devices. There’s a reason I included pumping and it’s because the sheer force of the pressures that a high quality pump can summon are easily able to rupture blood vessels and damage tissue in seconds. There are also pumping blister threads (this one is recent First Blister From Pumping)

Good point. But being a very safety conscious and patient guy I simply don’t go to extremes with anything. I mean I still feel something.

The blisters are essentially water being sucked from the blood into the tissue, if I am not mistaken. I also noticed that especially the skin tends to get very puffy if too little pressure for too long is applied. That’s essentially just water evenly leaking into the skin tissue.

For that reason I tend to only apply reasonably low pressure for 3 minutes max - and repeat that for maybe three times.

Because if I imagine the internal processes remotely accurate then the whole procedure is turning counterproductive as soon as water starts leaking significantly - this happens even before puffiness and blisters. Then the dick gets blown up but in the wrong way.

Would you say that the dual method to vacuum pumping is applying a cock ring? In that case the pressure is self made and from within. Do you have an opinion on cock ring vs vacuum pumping?

I read a few times that a cock ring won’t directly help with PE - but my dick does get bigger and harder with a CR - so the stretching theory should apply here, too.

Originally Posted by dickerficker
Good point. But being a very safety conscious and patient guy I simply don’t go to extremes with anything. I mean I still feel something.

The blisters are essentially water being sucked from the blood into the tissue, if I am not mistaken. I also noticed that especially the skin tends to get very puffy if too little pressure for too long is applied. That’s essentially just water evenly leaking into the skin tissue.

For that reason I tend to only apply reasonably low pressure for 3 minutes max - and repeat that for maybe three times.

Because if I imagine the internal processes remotely accurate then the whole procedure is turning counterproductive as soon as water starts leaking significantly - this happens even before puffiness and blisters. Then the dick gets blown up but in the wrong way.

Would you say that the dual method to vacuum pumping is applying a cock ring? In that case the pressure is self made and from within. Do you have an opinion on cock ring vs vacuum pumping?

I read a few times that a cock ring won’t directly help with PE - but my dick does get bigger and harder with a CR - so the stretching theory should apply here, too.

Allow me to elaborate. While a blister is just water buildup, on the glans it is a pain like no other. Every member that has experienced one has agreed it’s incredibly bad. It’s easy to do is my point, care needs be taken, as a packed tube will lead to a glans blister without high pressure usage neccesarily.

However, and I hate to play Devil’s Advocate when I advocate safety, the pump usage you describe likely isn’t doing much good at all. 3 minute sessions at low pressure for only 3 repetitions isn’t actually going to displace a lot of blood into the tissues to distend them very much at all. So you’re being very prudent but you will not see much by way of permanent gains with that routine. To get the stretching to the limit effect a pump can give, either up durations OR pressures from where you are now. Never both at once, that is too unpredictable if you’ve never ventured into that territory.

Thirdly, I agree a cock ring certainly can be a PE tool as it will cause a maximum strength erection. It uses a Hybrid mechanism similar to Clamping, and the Extreme ULI.

However, under no circumstances would I ever advise you use a cock ring while you pump. Ever. This is a match made in Heaven for disaster.

I say this because a cock ring keeps blood trapped. A pump induces swelling by summoning more blood. However, if you are using a cock ring and force more blood into the penis you will cause it to swell to a point that removal of the ring becomes very complex and wearing the ring at that time becomes a dire danger. Reason being is a pump typically effects a cylinder seal once your base swells to fit the mouth of the cylinder. A ring would slow that process and because a ring prevents outflow of blood you would actually overfill the blood vessels with an unreal amount of pressure from within and outside of the penis and the result sounds…catastrophic. As you would also be starving the entire penis, both the blood and flesh, of oxygen while applying more pressure from the outside for whatever amout of time. This all sounds very bad to me. Again, I repeat: Do not use a cock ring while pumping.

All of that applies if the cylinder does seal at all. A ring could prevent your seal from happening.

What you suggest seems needless. If you want additional pressure while pumping, pump to a higher pressure. Cutting out blood outflow and risking a compounded risk of blood vessel thomboss or rupture seems much more dangerous than ramping up pressure or duration conventionally.

I would never recommend combining any Hybrid mechanisms. It multiplies danger far too much for an unpredictable result.


Now: 8.875" BPEL x 6.125" MSEG as of 8/12/2016 It's a long story but...

Then: 6.25" x 4.37" in 8/2009 Are you new to PE? Here's some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

My big secret? My methods. There is no "Holy Grail" of Penis Enlargement. Only time and effort works. I'm 7 years in and counting. Put the work in then the gains will come. All you have to do is keep the faith.

Originally Posted by thoughtfulgold
Allow me to elaborate. While a blister is just w..

Thanks for your feedback - very insightful. But it seems you understood that I combine pump with cock ring - I’m not practicing that.

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