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Silver Bullets and Eureka Moments - A Brief Treatise on PE

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Silver Bullets and Eureka Moments - A Brief Treatise on PE

The following is a distillation of the work of many - it’s not an attempt to re-invent the wheel. While the presentation may be novel, the concepts and fundamental principles outlined here are not new and I take no credit for them. They have been discussed, dissected and argued on this and other boards for more than a decade. They are supported by medical evidence spanning generations and have stood the test of time. There are no “Eureka! Moments”, those times have long since passed and, as we shall see, there are no “Silver Bullets”.
I’ve intentionally kept it simple and accessible.

Silver Bullets and Eureka Moments - A Brief Treatise on PE

Does PE work?
Yes, for most men. How well it works is dependant on various factors, but the short answer is that yes, it does work.

How does it work?
To answer this we need to consider and categorise the different types of growth experienced by men who regularly practice PE.

Primary Growth - this is principally achieved by stimulating circulation and restoring penile health. While the benefits of good circulation cannot be underestimated, the potential for growth is limited and is reliant on the initial physiology and “state of penile health” of the practitioner. If the subject’s penis has temporarily atrophied (shrunk) through such things as sexual inactivity or illness, gains can often be seen. However, these gains are, for the most part, illusory - it is simply returning the penis to a good state of health which, in itself, is not a bad thing. Men who enjoy a healthy lifestyle and regular sexual activity may not notice the same degree of “gains” as those who started in a less that optimal state.

Secondary Growth - this occurs when the penis is conditioned to expand beyond its normal capacity. Essentially, the practitioner “trains” his penis, much the same way as an athlete trains their body. Over time, tissue is stressed and “stretched” to accommodate a greater supply of blood during the erect state. Noticeable gains can be readily achieved by this method however, many men report that once they cease training, former gains can diminish.

Compound Growth - this includes elements of both Primary and Secondary Growth, but also includes the formation of new tissue mass. This is achieved by inducing controlled, generalised trauma - managed damage over a general area. The tissue is stressed beyond the limits of Secondary Growth to the point of generalised tissue micro-failure (many microscopic tears throughout the penis tissue). The body responds to these micro-failures by creating both scar tissue and new tissue thus increasing the actual physical mass. This phenomenon is well documented in many branches of medicine - a plethora of research papers that support this concept have been published, some of which can be accessed on this forum.
Furthermore, it would seem that a key to successful growth using this method relies on successively and consistently building upon these mirco-tears before the damage is fully repaired. Scar tissue, when first formed, is less robust than “mature” tissue - damage built on damage, at a microscopic level, results in Compound Growth. We should also remember that these microscopic tears occur at the weakest points and once the scar tissue has matured it will require more force to create the same degree of micro-failures. This, however, is not without risks and some of these are significant. But, it does present the most compelling model for permanent growth - i.e. growth that remains after both Primary and Secondary Growth subside.

How long does it take?
There are many factors that affect the rate of growth, but one of the most important is the individual’s physiology. Some men have less robust tissue and are therefore readily susceptible to the effects of PE. While these individuals may gain relatively quickly, some may also be prone to injury. At the other end of the scale are those with stronger tissue who, without conscientious perseverance over an extended period, gain very little. Most will fall somewhere in between.

Are gains permanent?
Yes, they can be, but are dependent on a number of factors. Permanent growth (i.e. long term growth that requires little or no maintenance) can really only be achieved by increasing the actual physical mass of the penis on a cellular level - more cells = larger penis. Training the penis to increase its capacity to hold more blood when erect will require maintenance to retain gains and when maintenance ceases, many will see gains subside. How long this takes varies significantly on an individual basis - some will see the gains disappear fairly quickly while others may retain them for several years.
It should also be noted that there is no strict delineation between Primary Growth and Secondary Growth; and Secondary Growth and Compound Growth - they can, and do, overlap. This explains why some people, whose regimens target Secondary Growth, still retain some gains after extended periods of inactivity - these gains are the effect of residual Compound Growth. Similarly, those who concentrate on Compound Growth may also experience some losses over time which can be attributed to the subsidence of Secondary Growth and short term retraction of scar tissue.
Additionally, there is little data available on what happens to penis size during the ageing process. It may naturally contract or distend - we simply don’t know.

Is PE dangerous?
Yes, it can be. While injuries are not uncommon, most are fairly minor, but some are not. Be under no illusion that PE can damage your penis permanently. Most injuries are sustained as a result of impatience and/or overexertion. But not all - some men’s tissue is simply not favourably receptive to the rigours of PE. Caution should be exercised in all stages. Like all physical pursuits, it is essential to start lightly and slowly and build from there. If you decided to take up marathon running, would your first training session include a 50 mile run? Unlikely! Or if you decided to pursue weightlifting would you simply walk into your local gym and start bench-pressing 200 lbs? Of course not. You must work up to these goals slowly or the risk of injury become significantly higher. If you start lightly it’s more likely that, should you encounter any injuries, they will be relatively minor.

What are the best ways to make gains?
There is no “Silver Bullet”, no “one-size-fits-all” approach to PE. But generally, success is dependent on the individual’s physiology, perseverance and consistency.

Are some methods better than others for gaining?
Yes. Although most methods explored on this board will provide various degrees of Compound Growth (i.e. gains that remain in the long term), some appear to be more successful than others. Methods such as jelqing, pumping, traction devices (ADS and extenders), stretches and squeezes mostly target Primary and Secondary Growth while methods such as hanging appear to concentrate more on Secondary and Compound Growth. However, as previously stated, varying degrees of Compound Growth can be achieved by almost all methods but are largely dependent on the individual’s physiology, perseverance and consistency.

Are ADS and traction devices good for Compound Growth?
If used as the sole method, many will find that they are of limited value - most devices are simply not strong enough or are too uncomfortable to be used at the tension needed to promote Compound Growth. However, if used as an adjunct to other methods, such as hanging, some may find they can be beneficial. As Phalloplasty surgeons have discovered, scar tissue can make the penis retract. Localised scar tissue, or plaques, are the main indicator of Peyronie’s Disease - the scar tissue or plaques are located on the inner curve of the penis or appear as less flexible indentations on the penis. What an ADS or other traction device can do is to help minimise the amount of retraction during the formation of scar tissue.

Are there limits to the amount of gains that can be achieved?
In the long term, theoretically, no. But in short term practice, yes. To achieve Compound Growth tissues need to be damaged and healed - most of this healing will include scar tissue. Mature scar tissue is stronger and less flexible than the surrounding tissue and will require greater forces to promote further growth. Higher stresses greatly increase the risk of localised macro-failure of the surrounding tissue - i.e. more serious tears in the tissue which could lead to conditions such as Peyronie’s Disease or worse. However, in the long term, scar tissue can stabilise and take on more of the characteristics of the surrounding tissue - this is why we find that old scars tend to “shrink” and become less apparent over time. Theoretically, it should be possible to continue Compound Growth after this time. However, at present, there is no evidence to either confirm or refute this.

Can gains be “cemented”?
The practice of “cementing gains” refers to the continuance of PE, after gains have been achieved, in order to retain this growth. In some cases it will not work, while in others it will. Primary and Secondary Growth cannot be cemented - in both cases, without regular maintenance, growth will dissipate over time. However, Compound Growth can benefit from the continuance of PE once gains have been achieved. Continuance can help minimise the effects scar tissue retraction. It should also be noted that Secondary Growth often overlaps with Compound Growth so the practice of “cementing gains” may also be beneficial to those concentrating primarily on Secondary Growth.

Is flaccid length a reliable indicator of growth?
No. Flaccid length is fickle and will fluctuate according to temperature, stress levels, trauma and a myriad of other internal and external influences. It cannot be relied on as an indicator.

Is stretched flaccid length a reliable indicator of growth?
No. Typically, after PE is performed, the stretched flaccid length may be greater than usual. This is invariably only a temporary state and is not a reliable indicator of gains.

Can vitamin supplements help with penis growth?
Supplements are no substitute for a well balanced, healthy diet. Large doses of vitamin C have been proved to aid healing, however fast healing may not create the ideal conditions for Compound Growth.

Can smoking affect gains?
Yes. The effects of tobacco smoke are well documented - it inhibits the body’s ability to healing quickly. While this may create favourable conditions for Compound Growth, the negative consequences far outweigh any benefits - a larger penis is of little consolation when you are dying from a smoking related cancer.

Will the medical establishment ever do any research into PE?
It’s possible, although unlikely. If any was done it would probably be under the auspices of research into the non-surgical treatment of conditions such as micro-penis, Peyronie’s Disease or similar afflictions. In order to be considered for research it must be shown to have benefit to the community, and satisfying men’s vanity is simply not a good enough reason! Additionally, although medical researchers are often driven by altruistic motives, those who fund the research are usually more concerned with the return on their financial investment - not always, but it’s often the reality.

What about the benefits of increased self-esteem through PE?
It is reported by some men that they feel better about themselves in the knowledge that they have a larger penis. But, unless they suffer from a debilitating condition such as micro-penis, is the size of their penis the real problem? Wouldn’t they also feel greater self-esteem if they had a successful career, a vibrant social life or an idyllic family situation? Sometimes size anxiety is a convenient “whipping boy” and a signifier of other underlying problems. At the end of the day, for some men, a gain in penis size will solve nothing.

Will doctors ever officially recognise PE?
Again, it’s possible, but unlikely in the near future. Although the underlying principles and main concepts of PE, as explained here, are not new and have been used in many fields of medicine for decades, there are fundamental problems. It opens a proverbial Pandora’s Box and could end up as a litigious free-for-all if blanket approval of PE was given by doctors. The problem is education and regulation. People do stupid things. A woman once put her dog in a microwave oven to dry it after a bath because it didn’t say on the instructions that she couldn’t. She sued the manufacturers and won the court case.
Also, doctors are loathed to recommend any practice that involves damaging (or potentially damaging) an otherwise healthy organ - it’s not part of their mandate.

Hopefully, this post will answer questions for newbies and vets alike and help them make informed decisions about their pursuit of PE. This is a “Big Picture” post based on the findings of thousands of other people over a long period of time - they are not my original ideas and concepts, I’ve just distilled and organised them. For those that wish to argue the minutiae, I would respectfully suggest that you first use the forum’s “Search” function - I think you’ll find that most of it has already been discussed at length.

I won’t be replying to this post. In fact, this is probably my last post - I’m off into the sunset again. However, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all who have contributed here. Without your input, research, experiments and feedback, none of my gains would have been possible.

A heartfelt Thank You!

lil1 :lep:


BPEL (5") | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | *20cm* (8")

MTSL (5") | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | *25cm* (10") MTSL = Maximum Traction Stretched Length

"Pertinaciously pursuing a penis of preposterously prodigious proportions." What a mouthful!

Very informative, thanks for posting. I didn’t read it all yet, but I wanted to post to “bookmark” this thread for future reference. :cool:


Started: 10-18-08 BPEL: 6.3 inches; BPEG: 4.8 inches.

Currently: BPEL 7.4 inches; BPEG: 5.2 inches

Goal: BPEL:8-8.5 inches; BPEG: 6 inches.

Thanks for putting this together. If senior members agree to it, placing that with other newbie documents may cut redundant questions down that are asked by the lazy.


As of 1/1/2009 - 6.25" BPEL // 5.0" EG

Originally Posted by parallelpoint

Thanks for putting this together. If senior members agree to it, placing that with other newbie documents may cut redundant questions down that are asked by the lazy.

I was just thinking that very thing. Well done lil12big1.


:_pump: :donatecar

lil12big1,

Just a few quick questions….

“Are gains permanent?
Yes, they can be, but are dependent on a number of factors. Permanent growth (i.e. long term growth that requires little or no maintenance) can really only be achieved by increasing the actual physical mass of the penis on a cellular level - more cells = larger penis.”

(1) What makes you say this? My gains weren’t “permanent,” your gains weren’t “permanent”…..in fact, I can’t remember reading any posts here by anybody who retained 100% of their gains over a period of many years.

(2) Even if more cells were created (as a result of PE-induced stressors), what in the world would keep those cells the same size - long after the stressors have ceased? Furthermore, cells do die/recycle. If those PE-generated cells were “needed” (as a result of stressors) what would cause them to recycle when they’re no longer “needed” (i.e., no more PE stressors)?

That’s like saying if you pump up your biceps huge, they’re yours to keep (I know that ain’t true). Remove the stressors, the biceps shrink. It has nothing to do with “more cells.” Furthermore, that shrinkage would not take long at all to begin.

These are real questions to think on….

Originally Posted by wadzilla
lil12big1,

Just a few quick questions….

“Are gains permanent?
Yes, they can be, but are dependent on a number of factors. Permanent growth (i.e. long term growth that requires little or no maintenance) can really only be achieved by increasing the actual physical mass of the penis on a cellular level - more cells = larger penis.”

(1) What makes you say this? My gains weren’t “permanent,” your gains weren’t “permanent”…..in fact, I can’t remember reading any posts here by anybody who retained 100% of their gains over a period of many years.

(2) Even if more cells were created (as a result of PE-induced stressors), what in the world would keep those cells the same size - long after the stressors have ceased? Furthermore, cells do die/recycle. If those PE-generated cells were “needed” (as a result of stressors) what would cause them to recycle when they’re no longer “needed” (i.e., no more PE stressors)?

That’s like saying if you pump up your biceps huge, they’re yours to keep (I know that ain’t true). Remove the stressors, the biceps shrink. It has nothing to do with “more cells.” Furthermore, that shrinkage would not take long at all to begin.

These are real questions to think on….

Are you implying that PE isn’t worthwhile given gains will be lost sooner or later ? I may be way off, but if you lost your gains, that means you stopped PE. I’m thinking you got discouraged, and I couldn’t blame you.

Very informative post thanks.


3/7/08: BPEL 7.00x5.125 Starting PE

2/07/09: BPEL 8.307x5.77 || 211mmX146.5mm

My Log: PE an Engineers approach

Very nicely put together!


:chicken: My chicken is on the path of becoming a big cock! :rooster:

Originally Posted by wadzilla
lil12big1,

Just a few quick questions….

“Are gains permanent?
Yes, they can be, but are dependent on a number of factors. Permanent growth (i.e. long term growth that requires little or no maintenance) can really only be achieved by increasing the actual physical mass of the penis on a cellular level - more cells = larger penis.”

(1) What makes you say this? My gains weren’t “permanent,” your gains weren’t “permanent”…..in fact, I can’t remember reading any posts here by anybody who retained 100% of their gains over a period of many years.

(2) Even if more cells were created (as a result of PE-induced stressors), what in the world would keep those cells the same size - long after the stressors have ceased? Furthermore, cells do die/recycle. If those PE-generated cells were “needed” (as a result of stressors) what would cause them to recycle when they’re no longer “needed” (i.e., no more PE stressors)?

I applaud lil12big1’s well-written post. I think he nailed it!

“(1) What makes you say this? My gains weren’t “permanent,” your gains weren’t “permanent”…..in fact, I can’t remember reading any posts here by anybody who retained 100% of their gains over a period of many years.” While this much is true, it just proves (are gains permanent? They CAN be) because of maintenance.

My current gains are, and will continue to be permanent, I’m very confident. When I quit full time PE again in about a year (if gains continue as expected/get near my goal), I will be back to report different findings than I did last time around, following years off regular PE.

We should try to simplify all of this. Simply condense it into an easy to understand system. Something the new guys will better understand, without getting discouraged, which might make them walk away from PE too soon.

Don’t expect your gains, if you achieve them, to be permanent. PE is a lifetime commitment, maintenance will be required, or else you are wasting your time on all that hard work. If you are going to quit PE and sit on your ass for several years, your gains will be mostly gone, and you would have wasted all that hard work! It’s really a simple concept, and I just hate to see all the talk of losing gains discourage the newer guys here.

Think of it like diet and exercise to maintain a healthy body weight. Something you did to get into good shape. You must maintain that regimen, or you will get fat again. You got down to that weight/size by hard work, but it won’t take as hard of work to maintain it now, but you would slowly revert back to your original fat cottage-cheese ass if you go back to your original lifestyle, and in this case that would be going back to doing no PE at all. I really believe it is as simple as that.

Or for the bodybuilders: If you want to remain cut, and have that nice toned body, you know God damn well you have to continue to work out to maintain it. Why shouldn’t PE be compared to either of these examples?

Well I’m a believer anyway…

Most of the topics on PE theory I have read in the last few months have been from years ago. It’s cool to see some new ones taking place to see them first hand. lil12big1 and wadzilla have a nice little rivalry going on. :D

Just read his post, and it’s sad that he is off into the sunset again and won’t be replying in this thread. :(

This is a very well put together piece of work.
This will stop a lot of new people and confused people from making silly threads.

And..

*Can smoking affect gains?
Yes. The effects of tobacco smoke are well documented - it inhibits the body’s ability to healing quickly. While this may create favorable conditions for Compound Growth, the negative consequences far outweigh any benefits - a larger penis is of little consolation when you are dying from a smoking related cancer.*

This statement is very true, but I have one thing to add.
When you smoke,the veins in your penis shrink as well due to lack of oxygen which lowers circulation.
Which means two things.
1. Smoking and doing PE at the same time might hinder gains.
2. If you have lost gains due to smoking, it’s most likely PE can help get those gains back for you.

Just a thought.

Wicked post lil12big1.
Massive respect

Mr whiskers


Current Stats: 6.9BPEL/6.4NBPEL 5.5MEG.

Current Goal: 7BPEL/6.5NBPEL 5.75MEG.

In the area of physiology of PE, I am a total newbie, and I will remain such forever.

But I want to post that I take issue with the idea of “micro-tears” and “scar tissue”. I realize that this is an area that has been “documented”, and I am open to the most likely scenario that I am completely wrong.

For some reason, and I don’t have any evidence to back it up, I feel that compound growth can be attained through something closer to “stimulation” rather than micro tear “injury”. Perhaps there are in fact small tears that happen that stimulate growth. But also there may be a level of PE that causes near zero or zero actual injury, and still stimulates compound growth.

Perhaps the penis can be made to respond to stress without these little micro tear injuries.

The idea of micro tearing is probably true, but the first time reader may come away with the idea that we are injuring our penises more than we actually are, and I wonder of there is a level of PE that leans more towards a stress response rather than an injury response.

I am also concerned that a person might perform PE with the idea that “injury” is good, it’s how we grow. Even if it is, most seem to report that you should never really feel like you are injured, maybe some slight aching, maybe no aching, but never set out to end up feeling like you are injured.


Sept. 4, '07: BPEL 6.875 inches, EG widest 5.25

Goal: Double digits

Originally Posted by Equine Rooster
….
But I want to post that I take issue with the idea of “micro-tears” and “scar tissue”. I realize that this is an area that has been “documented”, and I am open to the most likely scenario that I am completely wrong.
……

You aren’t completely wrong. A recent study provided evidence that scar tissue doesn’t form in connective tissue to repair micro-tears. Micro-tears are mainly repaired through fibro-blast mediated collagen fibrillogenesis. This means also that the idea that we should continuously pull the tissue or it will become shorter (or heal in a ‘contracted state’) is false.

>>Intrinsic fibroblast-mediated remodeling of damaged collagenous matrices in vivo

Paolo P. Provenzanoa, b, , , Adriana L. Alejandro-Osoriob, c, Wilmot B. Valhmub, Kristina T. Jensena, b and Ray Vanderby, Jr.a, b

Abstract
Numerous studies have examined wound healing and tissue repair after a complete tissue rupture and reported provisional matrix and scar tissue formation in the injury gap. The initial phases of the repair are largely mediated by the coagulation response and a principally extrinsic inflammatory response followed by type III collagen deposition to form scar tissue that may be later remodeled.In this study, we examine subfailure (Grade II sprain) damage to collagenous matrices in which no gross tissue gap is present and a localized concentration of provisional matrix or scar tissue does not form.
……..
Hence, since inflammation plays a large role in wound healing by inducing cell migration and proliferation, and controlling extracellular matrix scar formation, its absence leaves fibroblasts to principally direct tissue remodeling. Therefore, following a Grade II subfailure injury to the collagen matrix, we conclude that tissue remodeling is fibroblast-mediated and occurs without scar tissue formation, but instead with type I collagen fibrillogenesis to repair the tissue.<<

Subfailure damage repairing in ligaments

I posted this study here:
Healing?

several months ago and firegoat was so kind to comment it:
firegoat - Loading, lengthening, healing.

Of course, maybe TA, that is made of connective tissue as ligaments and tendons are, has nevertheless a specific, different mechanism to repair micro-tears. But : is it probable?

Originally Posted by CubanB
Most of the topics on PE theory I have read in the last few months have been from years ago. It’s cool to see some new ones taking place to see them first hand. lil12big1 and wadzilla have a nice little rivalry going on. :D

Not meant to be a “rivalry”……..honestly.

Originally Posted by Beretta92
Or for the bodybuilders: If you want to remain cut, and have that nice toned body, you know God damn well you have to continue to work out to maintain it. Why shouldn’t PE be compared to either of these examples?

Not to be argumentative, but I can’t see the logic in that. I mean, you are conceding that to remain cut, be toned, etc., you have to continue working out….right? Well, by the very fact that you must continue to train, you are conceding that gains are not “permanent”….like, say, a tattoo or breast implants.

Originally Posted by chip douglas
Are you implying that PE isn’t worthwhile given gains will be lost sooner or later ? I may be way off, but if you lost your gains, that means you stopped PE. I’m thinking you got discouraged, and I couldn’t blame you.

Never said that PE “isn’t worthwhile.” Yes, I did stop - for 4 years now; however, I didn’t begin to really lose until 3+ years away, cold turkey. Yes, I did get discouraged because I had thought that gains really were “permanent” (wouldn’t you, after 3+ years since your last workout, yet the gains were holding?).

I want honesty in PE - not bullshit, like the paysites (“Gain 3-5 Inches with only 10 Minutes Per Day!!!”), or all of those crazy bogus “testamonials” (“Damn dude! I gained 2 inches erect in only 5 weeks! I know I’ll hit 10 inches in no time! Your routine ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!”).

Good news: PE is real (no bullshit). Gains can be significant (in my case, I doubled my erect size, by volume). Gains can even last a helluva long time (in my case, 3+ years with nothing - not even piss pulls).

But “permanent”? No.

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