Thunder's Place

The big penis and mens' sexual health source, increasing penis size around the world.


Originally Posted by crashhex
Yes, several years ago the methods of free fat transfer posed the problems you mentioned are are not without risk. Today with the new preperation methods, E.G., nutrient prep, fluid removal etc, the chances of fat cell life are much perfected. What is lost? Mostly fluids that are absorbed in the fat. 10 % my friend. these methods are practiced by guinta and burman, 2 of the leading speacialists in the field.

Seems to me you have already made up your mind.
Good luck.

No haven’t made up my mind. i’m considerering all different types of surgery. I am now leaning toward dermal graft/ dual augmentation technique in california.. Cost 11,000.. very expensive, but satisfies a lot of the unpredictableness of the free fat transfer. leaning toward reinschild now. essentially same procedure as the alloderm, but uses your own tissue grafted from the back under the waste line. Seems to be the most permanant, but not sure..

"Crazy dancin! Making my penis sore!"

- Dave Chapelle

I know that the medical establishment is against phalloplasty - despite all of the paranoid rants regarding their opposition to PE because they instead want to make money from phalloplasty. That’s simply not true. I also know that leading urologists bash the procedure(s) also.

This is true. Great point Wad. Phalloplasty is derided in a way that other cosmetic surgeries are not — and I’d assume the docs have legitimate reasons for these opinions.

Crashhex, I would really recommend that you at least speak personally to one doctor who is opposed to phalloplasty before you go ahead with the procedure. This is an important decision and you would be best off hearing the pro’s and con’s from two informed sides of the debate.

Bro, the choice for surgery is up to you, and if you have it done, I support you and wish you the very very best, but I would try to exhaust every last gain from PE I could, before I did the surgery! I know impatience prevails in this game more often than not, but I think there is no way to know with just a year of PE that you have pushed your limits.

Please think it through, you only have one unit.

Read before considering surgery

You have only one dick to go around with in this lifetime. I’m attaching copies of messages that have recently been posted in a “surgery enlargement” forum. For anyone considering surgery as their enlargement alternative, these messages from guys who have had the procedures done are worth the read.

If I were considering penile surgery, after reading these messages, I would go running from the doctor’s office. But it is your choice!


Hello. This is the moderator John LaTreen with an
important update.

After much thought, I have decided to withdraw all my
support of girth surgery operations. The following
essay explains why.

Several things have come to my attention in the last
couple of weeks that have caused me to re-think my
whole attitude about girth surgery. A couple weeks ago
one of my best friends asked me for advice about a
nose job. He knew I had had much work done on my face
and wanted my opinion. He has a bulbous nose and I
thought a good plastic surgeon could do wonders for
him and maybe change his life. I was very enthusiastic
in my support of his surgery.

Although he knows nothing about my penis work, after
speaking with him I went home and started to think
what I would say if he had asked me about having his
penis enlarged. What would I tell my best friend? To
be perfectly frank, I would try to talk him out of it.
And if I would try to talk my best friend out of it,
how could I, in good conscience, let near strangers on
my Yahoo group go on thinking it is an OK thing to do?

As readers of this group already know, about two years
ago I had my first dermal-fat graft operation—-a large
continuous strip of my own body fat was harvested from
my lower butt crease and implanted in my penis. This
would have been great if the graft had stayed
put—except after about six months the fat had almost
COMPLETELY reabsorbed into my body leaving me with NO
REAL GAIN. You can see what my penis looked like in
the PHOTOS section. It is labeled “three days before
surgery”—-meaning “six months after the first surgery
and three days before the second surgery”.

I was told by Danny in Rheinschild’s office that the
first surgery “lays the groundwork” and the second
graft stays put much better. I went in for the second
operation with my eyes wide open. I had been warned in
a private email from a previous patient that I was
being handed a line by Danny and that ALL grafts
eventually reabsorb. But hope springs eternal and I
can resist everything but temptation. I went forward
with the second operation anyway.

Well, it has now been a year and a half since my
second operation and although Danny was right to some
degree, the graft did hold on much longer, but it has
slowly and steadily gotten thinner and thinner. I am
now not that far off from where I began.

After all the money, the pain, the vacuum pumping, the
stretching—I ain’t that much bigger. I am fortunate I
am self-employed and have a business that makes good
money for me and gives me a lot of time-off to pursue
these flights of vanity. I cannot in good conscience
let an average working Joe—for who $5,000-$15,000 is a
life savings—think spending his money this way is a
your money!!

Another problem is the hideous red scars that have
been left on my buttocks. These scars have not faded
away the way other surgical scars have done (like the ones
behind my ears I got from a facelift). They have
remained very red, jagged and ugly. Although treatment
with lasers may make them go away, it will be another
$1,500.00 down the shoot. As I have stated previously,
any gains in my self-confidence that were the result
of my girth enhancement have been more-or-less
canceled out by the negative embarrassment of my butt

There are other clues that have led me to believe that
girth surgery is a mirage.

Dr. Gary Alter is a very well respected Beverly Hills
plastic surgeon who I have never heard a bad word
about. He used to do girth enhancements but quit doing
them for some reason. In October of 2002 (message 99)
I wrote him to ask why.

Oct. 2002
I recently emailed the office of Dr Gary Alter (one of
the few surgeons recommended on this website) to
inquire why he no longer does girth enhancements. I
ask him if it was because he is focusing his practice
on other things or is it because he finds something
inherently wrong with girth enhancements. His answer
seems to be a combination of both. But he states he
still does reconstruction on men who have been
disfigured by other doctors. Here is his exact reply:


I perform release of the suspensory ligament for

I no longer perform girth enhancements. There are some
problems with these procedures, which are still being
improved. Until the results are more predictable and
the complications are less, I will not be performing
them. I continue to reconstruct men who have
complications from girth enhancements.

In addition, since I am a plastic surgeon as well as a
urologist, my practice is more diversified. I am able
to perform a wide range of cosmetic and reconstructive
procedures, so I am not dependent on penile
enlargement surgery for my livelihood.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Gary Alter, M.D.


Although he does not come out and say point-blank “I
don’t do girth enhancements any more because they are
a crock and all reabsorb over time” I have heard from
people who have spoken with him that the reabsorbtion
and lack of real gains is what prompted him to drop
the procedure.

There is a former patient of Rheinschild that has
emailed me privately but wishes to remain anonymous. I
shall call him “Mr. Big”. Mr. Big is a str8 man who
lives in Los Angeles and who has a God-given
nine-incher. Over several emails he has told me his
nightmarish story. It seems Rheinschild wanted to make
“an example” of him and give him an even larger penis.
But because his penis was so long to begin with it
required a really large graft. So Rheinschild took a
huge chunk of fat out of his buttocks and left a deep
gouge and two huge “dog ears” on either end.

After time his graft did nothing but reabsorb leaving
him with no real gain up front and a “less elastic”
penis. But left the poor guy with a severely disfigured
buttocks that has required several revision surgeries
but is still unsightly.

This is a tragedy because he spends much time
vacationing at nudist resorts (with nine inches
wouldn’t you?). In his latest email he said he would
“give up three inches just to have a normal buttocks
again” YIKES!

He also said Rheinschild has the tendency to bury his
head in the sand and ignore or discount any negative
problems. In other words “live in an I-can-do-no-wrong

Mr. Big recently paid a visit to Gary Alter and this is
what he had to say:


[Dr. Gary] Alter has slowly become more forth-coming
over the years, although he still adheres to the CYA
[cover your ass] attitude that all
Police/Doctors/Lawyers do to a fellow member of the
fraternity. The week I came in, Alter had done two
reconstruction jobs on Rheinschild’s Alloderm
patients who had burst their sutures and were left
scared, scarred and worried. He then told me he was
seeing more and more of Rheinschild’s patients, more
frequently, and that, in his opinion, Rheinschild was
emotionally unstable and unable to come to accept any
surgical failure on his part. He runs away in denial
(like he did with me.) Alter will not do any dermal
graft because nearly all end up in ultimate
reabsorption over time, and as importantly, leave a
massive hideous scar.


When I had my second girth surgery done a year and a
half ago Rheinschild was still bad-mouthing Alloderm
procedures. Now he is doing them himself but Gary
Alter is having to revise them on a more frequent
basis. What does that say about Alloderm?

Another clue in all this is the lack of decent “before
and after” photos of girth enhancement procedures. I
have always found it odd that all of the doctor’s
websites contain “after” photos that are taken right
after the surgery. Where are the photos that are taken
one-and-two years post-op???

Other plastic surgeons don’t do things this way. When
you go in for a facelift the doctor shows you photo
albums of patients “before” and YEARS “after”. They
never show you photos taken moments after the surgery
because how you look after surgery has nothing to do
with how you will look years down the road.

I suspect the reason for the dearth of quantity and
quality of before-and-after photos is because they
don’t really exist. If Rhienschild were to take an
“after” photo of me there would not be much of a
difference to show. Not a good selling point. It is
much better for him to have “Jim” on hand who, by his
own admission, spends “two hours a day” vacuum-pumping,
to show off is temporarily swelled member and get
“hope springs eternal” guys like me to believe that
the doctor did it.

I once emailed Douglas Whitehead (who only does girth
enhancements with Alloderm) and asked him about the
“lack of before-and-after photos” problem. He
basically said after most operations his patients
vanish into the woodwork and he never sees them again
so he can’t take photos that are years post-op. His
site is chock-full of photos taken of swelled,
immediately-post-op penises. This begs the question
that if he doesn’t have any returning patients then
how does he know that his Alloderm grafts hold up over
time and don’t simply fade away?? I think his
explanation is a crock.

One more straw to throw on the camel’s back.
While updating the LINKS section I noticed that the
link for Harold Reed did not work anymore. So I
Googled his name to discover that he is de-emphasizing
his penis enlargement practice and has moved on to
doing sex-change operations.

Reed’s sex-change website:

What does that tell us?? If this whole girth surgery
thing really did work and really did provide lasting
and worthwhile results there would be no need for this
website to “debate” and vacillate over the results.
Word would quickly spread thru the locker room and our
“four good doctors” would have men lined up around the
block. But that is not happening.

Instead, Gary Alter has stopped doing girth surgery.
Harold Reed is changing the focus of his practice. I
don’t trust Douglas Whitehead to be candid. And more
and more of Rhienschild’s Alloderm patients are
seeking revision surgery with Alter.

What does all this add up to? My conclusion is that
girth surgery doesn’t work and grafts, whether
dermal-fat or Alloderm, simply reabsorb over time.

Before my opinion would change in regards to Alloderm
I would need to hear lots and lots of candid
testimonials and see TONS AND TONS of before-and-after
photos taken SEVERAL YEARS post-op. Until that day I
would not encourage anyone reading this to offer
themselves up as a human guinea-pig.

If anyone disagrees with any point please write your
opinions to the group. I don’t like responding to
people individually. I much prefer an open debate that
the whole group can participate in. If you want to
remain anonymous then set up a false-name Yahoo
account and write to the group from there.

Lastly, I have to say that one thing I do
whole-heartedly support is the lengthening procedure.
If you can afford $5,000.00 and have the time to do
the post-op weight-hanging you can realistically add
an inch or two to the length of your erect penis and
cause it to be less “fixed in place” and have more
lateral movement when it is erect. This makes it much
more comfortable and easy for people to give you oral
sex. I have never regretted my lengthening procedure.

July 15, 2004
Cheers, John LaTreen

“Somewhere between fact and fiction, fantasy and reality, lies the Twilight Zone.”
************************************************** ***
************************************************** ***************************** Rod Serling
************************************************** ******************
************************************************** *****************************
Unfortunately, this is also true of Surgical Enhancement circa 2004.I have been privately e-mailing our moderator John since this group began and more recently with Ken who, in my judgement, is superbly qualified in background and judgement to lead this forum into the future.* As several excerpts of my case history were incorporated in John’s latest message to the group, I suppose it’s time to “come out of the shadows” so to speak and render an opinion.

Surgical Penile enhancement, as a state of the art today, is not for the faint of heart or those of lesser means. I would equate it somewhere between rocketing into space on one of Burt Rutan’s cartoon-plane contraptions and running with the bulls in Spain; with a success/failure rate commensurate.* As a nudist ( with a home in America’s premier resort) and as one who vacations in Cap d’ Adge, France with 30,000 to 40,000 fellow naturists, I have seen more penis variations than any graduating class of urologists. While I do not have any medical credentials to draw from, at on time I was once on a referral list of a
certain prominent physician and took calls from both pre and post-operative patients. So one could say that I have consulted and unfortunately consoled many patients who have in the end had nothing to show for their expense pain and grief were massive scars and bad memories.

Is Surgical Enhancement either a false, illusionary scam and/or a cash cow racket? In my opinion, this is a qualified yes. I can list on one hand the total number of success stories I have personally documented using the dermal graft method, and am suspicious of printed testimonties (i.e. Harry Hungwell gained 4”) found at those physician web sites.* Since most men are even more interested in length, the promise of huge gains via surgical enhancement, though enticing, just don’t materialize leaving the patient angry, depressed and with an emptied bank account. I have spent much time on the phone (as Ken has)
listening to a post-operative patient who believed they were at the end of their sex-life as a result of botched surgery. The physician collected his money and ran; his surgical scars and results last a lifetime. I am of the opinion now that the only time surgery should be performed is when there is either a buried or mal-formed penis (see Dr. Gary Alter’s web site.)

As for my case history, the physician in question had a surgical orgasm on my penis which was atypically long and slender ( my standard joke- “ain’t bad for a white kid “) prior to surgery. Instantly he proclaimed “you’ll be my biggest patient! I want you on my web site!!”* As John stated in his message, a tremendous graft, about 23cm, was implanted along my penile shaft. Prior to surgery, I had one of those “bungee cord” penises that would range
from about 7” in the Arctic tundra to flopping around 9 1/2” on the Hedonism II nude catameran rum run to Rick’s Cafe down in Jamaica. At erection I was a legitimate 10.5” along the top. This is not an exercise in braggadocio, but neccessary information to explain what transpired. Like John, I was left at the end of a few months with nothing to show up front, but a world-class scarred, deformed butt with huge, and I mean massive, dog-ears on either side of the scar. One would have though an entire chunk of my left buttock was surgically removed, which in fact it was.

I have endured three surgeries plus a reverse lipsuction to attempt to restore normal shape to my rear end. Two marblesized cysts were removed from my penis.I still have small dog-ears on both outboard and inboard sides and a .5 to 1cm scar running about 200 degrees around my upper leg and thigh. Moreover, I must field questions about my scar each and everytime I venture out in a nudist setting. Memories of the pain and discomfort, the lengthy recuperations and even the anger have faded four years post-surgery, but my scar is the only enduring reminder of my attempt at widening my penis.

So in conclusion good people, be careful of what you wish for.

Forum Guidelines PAST: 5.25"L x 4.75"G (base),EBP (January 2001) / PRESENT: 7.50"L x 7.00G (base),EBP It doesn't happen overnight! Commitment! Focus! Patience!/ Main Routine = Pumping/Jelqing/clamping + Homedic TheraP or ACE Wrap TheraP or ACE Wrap

This might sound ignorant, but man, those pictures look horrible. Those scars are not attractive at all, is it really worth permanently deforming your one and only penis?

You have a functioning, healthy, normal, penis. Please please be happy with that. I could see if you had some kinda of major problem, but you don’t.

If this means anything, be happy with what God made for you, PE is fine, but surgury….man I just wouldn’t go there. I think you would look down at that one day and be like wtf was I thinking??????

Not worth it, use what you have and be happy you have it.


Where did you find that information. The surgery support group to be more specific. it seems I’ve read every web page on phalloplasty and have not come across it.

"Crazy dancin! Making my penis sore!"

- Dave Chapelle

Originally Posted by crashhex

Where did you find that information. The surgery support group to be more specific. it seems I’ve read every web page on phalloplasty and have not come across it.


This is a surgery enlargement group on yahoo. You can join this adult-restricted
group by going to:…ment_For um%2F

John Latreen is the originator of the group who himself has had penile surgery. The site was created to provide input and support to himself and others who have had or who are considering penile surgery.

I joined 2 years ago out of curiosity and have just monitored the information as a way to keep myself informed. I have no desire nor would I consider penile enlargement surgery, based on the many messages I have read on this forum. To each his own, but thank goodness I found PE exercises and committed wholeheartedly to them for years in making my own personal gains. I can certainly understand the temptation to try to find a “quicker way to a bigger dick”, regardless of the financial, physical and emotional costs. But frankly, I think the risks far outweigh the “unguaranteed” gains. Perhaps, if you join and read the inventory of messages, you will be helped in your eventual decision.


P.S. - It seems that of the two procedures (length vs girth), the lengthening surgery seems the less dangerous and the more likely to be successful but still with post-surgery effort. The length gains are not in erect length, but only about 1 - 2 inches in flaccid length. Plus, if you don’t take on a committed program of post hanging with weights for months, you will not make any length gains post-surgery and you may possibly become even smaller due to retraction from scar tissue that is not continually stretched. Can you commit to months of hanging? If you can’t, you probably won’t benefit permanently from the surgery. If you can, why not try hanging on its own merits first? Just some thoughts.

Forum Guidelines PAST: 5.25"L x 4.75"G (base),EBP (January 2001) / PRESENT: 7.50"L x 7.00G (base),EBP It doesn't happen overnight! Commitment! Focus! Patience!/ Main Routine = Pumping/Jelqing/clamping + Homedic TheraP or ACE Wrap TheraP or ACE Wrap

On slashdot ( there is a discussion about lasik right now. One poster made this point:

2) with most normal procedures, if it goes wrong, then you’re back where you used to be, with lasik, you could be horribly worse off

I think that applies to this discussion.

Sorry to keep trying to make the lasik analogy, but I really think there are parallels.

Start 6/13/04: 6.0 BPEL x 5.125 EG (midshaft) Current 10/17/04: 6.938 BPEL x 5.625 EG (midshaft) Come on 7! Disclaimer: I'm not an advanced member, but my member is advancing. ;)

I think you will only have a good chance of getting more length after the operation if you have a high LOT. Of course if you have a high LOT you have a good chance of gaining from PE too. However if you turn it around then if you are not gaining from PE what makes you think you will benefit from surgery?

Crashhex,to me you come over as a very impatient guy because that’s already the 2nd bump I’ve seen you do after a hour of no replies to 1 of your threads. PE takes time and patience and I’m unsure you have given PE a fair chance.

I Have gained from PE. Very well infact, .75” bone pressed length, and .5” girth. This is awesome, I still use the Bib, and plan to after the surgery. I’ve been with ten women in my life, and everyone of them claimed to have had a bigger ex, or affair. I seriously doubt the Kinsey report is accurate. Maybe he compensates for something Eh, I Just don’t agree. I say the average American is 6 not bone pressed by 5.25- to 5.5” girth. I’m 7 bone pressed by 5” mid girth. Not acceptable. Hmm after surgery I’ll be about 7” not bone pressed, with traction, and about 6-6.75 girth. Sounds good to me. I can, by the way, PE after surgery which I plan to do, this includes jelq, squeezes, pumping and weight traction. I don’t know if I’ll continue with 23 pounds with my bib hanger or go on to vaccum hanging. Yes, I’m impatient. I love stickin the big one to em’.

"Crazy dancin! Making my penis sore!"

- Dave Chapelle

I see you can’t be really that impatient otherwise you wouldn’t have gained as much as you did ;) Unless you have seen more dick than dr. Kinsey you should go by his survey results. From what I’ve read from previous posts in this thread you shouldn’t expect much lasting effects from girth enhancement. Perhaps you should give some other girthexercises a try, I have gained a lot from clamping maybe that will work for you too.

I have slept with more women than Kinsey, who in turn have slept with other men creting a vast network of experience. It is rare I’d say 20% of men are less than 5” girth. I think he trying to make that 20% feel better about themselves, as for girth. I am going to have dermal grafts, which is vastly superior to lipo transfer, and is considered permanant in most cases. I can continue girth exercises after the surgery. I believe that there is a very small chance that some of the graft will absorb over time this is estimated at less than 10% if any.

"Crazy dancin! Making my penis sore!"

- Dave Chapelle

Its natural for fat to be used by the body for energy, so you can be sure no fat deposit is ever permanent anywhere on your body, certainly not the penis as it serves little purpose there.

If you do get the graft, make sure you always eat well because you know where the calories will be burnt from first..


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