Thunder's Place

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New suppositions about the growing mechanisms

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I have to clarify my previous statements regarding tissue structure. As I said before, the Tunica Albuginea and the suspensory ligaments have basically the same type of tissue: hierarchically structured collagen fibers. While I always had in mind the tunica, the same considerations apply to the suspensory ligaments too. This means that the fast (newbie) gains resulting from uncrimp apply for both the tunica and the suspensory ligaments.

To avoid confusions, I repeat that exhausting the gains from uncrimp doesn’t mean there are no more gains from stretching! Only that they will come much slower. I think some confusion can be avoided if we make a difference between crimp and creep. The former is related to alignment of fibrils, while the latter means permanent elongation of those fibrils. An analogy could be ‘growing’ in height by abandoning the bad habit of staying bent and adopting a straight position (uncrimp) versus stretching the spine, increasing space between vertebrae (creep).

What I’m saying is that the connective tissue of the tunica and the ligaments have their share of elasticity (which is not affected by exhausting the crimp). Stretching for sufficiently long time the tunica and the ligaments in the elastic range, creep is likely to appear. For those not familiarized with this term, creep is the permanent deformation resulting from prolonged application of stress inside the elastic range. I guess this is a possible mechanism for further gains, but seems to be much slower.
Because creep appears without hitting the elastic limit of the tissue, it is not mandatory to produce micro tears of the fibers, scar tissue and all the undesired consequences of tough tissues resulting from healing.


Starting BPEL: 6.9" (Dec.1st, 2008)

Current BPEL: 8.11" NBPEL: 7.63" BPFSL: 9.09"

Current MEG : 5.6"

Originally Posted by GiantTrunkIwant

Jelqing imo doesn`t work at all if you are really just pushing more blood into the corpora. It`s highly unlikely that the blood could ever put on enough pressure to deform the corpora permanently.

We can do more than just guessing. Knowing that the blood pressure in the penian artery is around 110 - 120 mm Hg, considering girth in the 5 - 5.5” range, a simple computation gives the (lengthwise) force of the normal erection: it’s in the 2 - 2.5 kgf range (around 4 - 5 pounds). That’s pretty much. One needs nothing more to pull for BPFSL! I can’t evaluate the pressure increase during jelqing, but it’s visually obvious that one can set up much more.


Starting BPEL: 6.9" (Dec.1st, 2008)

Current BPEL: 8.11" NBPEL: 7.63" BPFSL: 9.09"

Current MEG : 5.6"

I thought these were some interesting sentences on crimping and related stuff from the article in the link. The interesting part is that even on erection, fibers were not always fully straightened. Does PEing do just that as has been argued in this post?

Having said that, why does one see base girth increases with hanging and some pics from members look like part of the inner shaft has been pulled out. I haven’t done hanging, just stretching but I kinda feel like this has happened to me also, but again, this is only my opinion.

“Its stiffness increases asymptotically by 3–4 orders of magnitude during erection as collagen fibers in its axial orthogonal array are straightened (Fig. 6). The largest values of stiffness measured in the tunica albuginea are still considerably smaller than the tensile modulus of tendon (2´109Nm-2, from Wainwright et al.,
1976), implying that the collagen fibers in the tissue were not fully straightened during inflation; in fact, slightly crimped collagen fibers are visible in erect”

“Folded tissue and crimped collagen fibers permit the flaccid tunica albuginea to change shape during erection, as in other inflating tissues (Fung, 1981, 1984; Canfield and Dobrin, 1987; Orton and Brodie, 1987; Brainerd, 1994). In all these tissues, the collagen fiber extension will increase the flexural stiffness
of the inflated structure, both by increasing the Young’s modulus of the tissue and by increasing the second moment of area of the structure as a whole. But once the collagen fibers in the tunica albuginea are fully extended, their arrangement in an axial orthogonal array prevents any further shape change of the corpus cavernosum. This is unlike structures reinforced by crossed-helical arrays of fibers, which can change shape whenfully inflated (Clark and Cowey, 1958; Wainwright, 1988). The anatomical design of the tunica albuginea therefore not only allows the corpus cavernosum to expand during erection, but stops corpus cavernosum inflation at a fixed and repeatable size and shape.”

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/202/3/253


Starting Size: April, 28, 2010: NBPEL-7" Girth-6" (base, MSG, glans)

Currently: BPEL-8" NBPEL-7.25" Girth-6.25" (base)/6.125" (MSG)/6.125" (glans)

Error:

Pressure in the corpora cavernosa is higher than arterial blood pressure due to active muscle contraction (skeletal muscle of the penis, ischiocavernosus if I remember correctly).

Originally Posted by cervixhunter
We can do more than just guessing. Knowing that the blood pressure in the penian artery is around 110 - 120 mm Hg, considering girth in the 5 - 5.5” range, a simple computation gives the (lengthwise) force of the normal erection: it’s in the 2 - 2.5 kgf range (around 4 - 5 pounds). That’s pretty much. One needs nothing more to pull for BPFSL! I can’t evaluate the pressure increase during jelqing, but it’s visually obvious that one can set up much more.


Later - ttt

Well ttt the pic is obviously about stretching but not about gains. I mean this girl didn’t really grow her body in size she just managed to get her ligs and muscles to bend a certain way which btw I still doubt is permanent. When I mentioned creep effect I was talking of the creep effect of tissue, of muscle tissue to be exact. Creep effect here in opposition to the creep of material actually is not! Permanent. The only thing imo that would be permanent is the growth from micro injuries but I already said so.

Originally Posted by cervixhunter
We can do more than just guessing. Knowing that the blood pressure in the penian artery is around 110 - 120 mm Hg, considering girth in the 5 - 5.5” range, a simple computation gives the (lengthwise) force of the normal erection: it’s in the 2 - 2.5 kgf range (around 4 - 5 pounds). That’s pretty much. One needs nothing more to pull for BPFSL! I can’t evaluate the pressure increase during jelqing, but it’s visually obvious that one can set up much more.

Still the pressure had to be progressive in order to get past a certain plateau which will be hard to accomplish yet alone and I don`t know about valve quality then.

Anyways to get this further here is something I came across while searching the forums. It is a thread you came up with ttt which in my opinion is ground braking. I don’t know how to link this really so maybe you could do if you read this.
However to sum up the idea. It is simple but still evolutionary. I don’t know whether someone else came up with this before ttt or not or whoever gets credit for that but anyway.
The idea basically is to not place the weight at the very end of the shaft but straight at the base while holding the cock itself up. Maybe ttt can explain that in detail. I did this by simply using the tow I normally hang with
The thing is that by hanging that certain way the actual stretch is almost fully on the ligs!! It’s not on the tunica or corpora but almost fully on the ligs! Ground braking in my opinion. Actually a simple idea but I think it’s revolutionary since it finally allows to put the pressure on the ligs only. The stretch on the ligs is not limited by the weight the cock can bear it is all about the ligs and the ligs only. This way I think it’s finally possible to get the ligs into a fatigue state. And although I still don’t know about the actual mechanism going on behind the possible growth of soft tissue it is a good thing to be finally able to set off the triggers necessary to cause growth in the first place which imo can be nothing but micro injuries.

Hanging this way I think it’s possible to shock the tissue by hanging huge amounts of weight only for some seconds or minutes to cause micro injuries.
I didn’t want to do this with the weight applied to the end of my cock since I`m a bit more careful about the tissue there but since the collagen of the ligs has way less hollows and way more cross links I think it can take it. I will try the shock method the next days. Either way it should trigger something no matter where the gains actually derive from.

Speaking of my own experience applying this new hanging method (not the shock one yet). I finally really felt a stretch in my ligs which I haven’t felt before really.
Also although there is a kind of pressure on the very down part of the shaft it`s not that much. In fact my cock is still recovering from my last hanging cycle which means I can not hang weight the top of the shaft, yet hanging the new way I did not feel like causing any more level of fatigue in the tissue of the cock.
To illustrate the difference between the two ways of hanging. I hang about 7.5 lbs normally today I was hanging double the weight 15 lbs and there still is some more way to go.
Once again imo this is evolutionary.

By telling about this hanging method I came across I actually forgot to address the things you said cervixhunter.

Those are some good points for sure but I still don`t know where the gains should come from once the crimp has been exhausted?

I don`t know about that.

I got told that the Lip tableaux of the Mursi tribes women are a result of stretching only. I doubt that. The base of the lips actually is muscle tissue which might explain the enormous growth and the lips itself consist of way more cells than the collagen tissue of the ligs and the penis. What I want to say is that there has to be some notable amount of micro injuries going on in order to reach a deformation level like this.

Also you mentioned the undesired consequences of tough tissue. I actually do hope that the toughening of the tissue actually IS the thing that does get you gains although as I said I got no evidence for that so far.
So the only undesired consequence I could think of is that the work out has to be progressive. But that`s a thing one can`t help about.

I`m not doubting crimp. Certainly not. I`m just saying that in order to get past a certain plateau one will have to go for micro injuries. Even though I still haven`t found out about the lengthening effect of soft tissue repair yet. I just can assume that the toughening of the tissue lastly results in somewhat bigger and larger tissue itself.

It`s not about arguing for me about what`s right or wrong I just want to find out which way to go in order to get any further. If there is any other way than micro injuries to explain gains beyond uncrimp I d be happy to learn about it and apply it.

Originally Posted by GiantTrunkIwant
.. I came across while searching the forums. It is a thread you came up with ttt which in my opinion is ground braking. I don’t know how to link this really so maybe you could do if you read this .

Thank you for your enthusiasm Giant. Here is the link:

New hanging technique

There is also a how-to pic in this thread (post #21).

I am not sure whether I am actually the first who described the technique; I have been reading on, and practising hanging for quite a long time and I was not aware of this technique before; also, in my thread, nobody mentioned that this was described before. Anyhow, I (we, most of us, at least) am / are not hunting for patents but sharing ideas ..

The technique I described has been commented critically because I am hanging erect. However, an erection is not necessarily required for this technique and everybody can try to find the approach that works best for him.

When I tried this technique during erection I was able to hang 55 pounds for a short moment, unthinkable for me with any other hanging technique.

I regularly hang 33 pounds now for a few minutes, several sets.


Later - ttt

Your point of view.

Anatomically, a joint allows motion in a certain, limited range.

The range is limited by the joint capsule, ligaments, and tendons / muscles.

The muscles and ligs are running exactly the same course in her body. The fact that she is able to bend the way she is doing proves that these structures are elongated. Contorsionists are able to perform with practically noo preparation or warm-up, indicating that a good part of the gains must be permanent.

I have performed x-ray and magnetic resonance imaging of contorsionists. It is clear that there are severe permanent deformations, even of bony structures. For example, I have seen a male (retired) contorsionist whose cervical spine vertebrae were deformed to a degree that I have never seen in any other person (in a 20 year career as a radiologist). One of these vertebrae had anteroposterior dimensions more than twice (2x!) normal. Bony changes are the ultimate proof for permanent deformation, of course, because these are CEMENTED in the true since of the word we are using so often herein.

Originally Posted by GiantTrunkIwant
Well ttt the pic is obviously about stretching but not about gains. I mean this girl didn’t really grow her body in size she just managed to get her ligs and muscles to bend a certain way which btw I still doubt is permanent.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by GiantTrunkIwant
.. I actually do hope that the toughening of the tissue actually IS the thing that does get you gains although as I said I got no evidence for that so far.

For me there is evidence that toughening CAN imply gains: base gains from hanging. Here the base structures of the penis get a lot tougher and thicker (for me an increase from less than 5 to more than 7 inch).

However, toughening may else hinder changes, in particular length changes. The tougher the structures the more weight, however there are natural individual limits (I can not hang 65 pounds with the bib hanger as claimed by bib, e.g.).

However, with my new technique (New hanging technique) I hope to be able to apply enough stress as to overcome the tough structures.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by GiantTrunkIwant
If there is any other way than micro injuries to explain gains beyond uncrimp I d be happy to learn about it and apply it.
The theory of micro injuries is the most popular muscle growth theory among body builders. It’s not the only one theory and it’s not beyond doubts. The scientific community is still debating.
There is muscle and tissue growth without any micro injury: just think about the natural development of the body from fetus to adult, without any workout. The growing hormones don’t need micro injuries.
An other theory assigns tissue growing virtues to anaerobic exposure…
Plastic deformation (beyond uncrimp) is also plausible to a certain extent.

I can imagine tissue growth triggered by some physiologic necessity that doesn’t imply micro injury. The body can detect a weak spot that needs to be consolidated before it is injured. I think the base gains from hanging (and manual stretching) can be attributed to this effect (at least partially). [An other cause of base gains is the drift of the ligaments-penis joint towards the tip of the penis, changing the conical shape of the penis-ligaments compound. A wide angle short cone changes into a narrower and longer cone.]

Stretching mostly the ligaments with a grip at the base of the penis depends on the quality of the grip. I’m not into this, as I want to avoid lowering the erection angle, but this is a personal preference. Stretching the ligaments is a viable way to gains for those who don’t care the lower angle. I think that would be only plastic deformation beyond uncrimp, i.e. creep.


Starting BPEL: 6.9" (Dec.1st, 2008)

Current BPEL: 8.11" NBPEL: 7.63" BPFSL: 9.09"

Current MEG : 5.6"

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