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Unfortunately, I don’t think it is that easy to do so. How do you know you have caused a grade II strain to your TA? When this happens, there are sympotms, say pain or something else? If this was the case, you’d know it was time to just rest for at least a week - actually, way more than that. But it would be interesting to see how the so called ‘riding the fatigue’ fits with what this studies are showing. I don’t want to start the arguing again, so everybody just read and think on it by themselves. I’ll ad another small excerpt:

”..Tendons are slow to heal, with no appreciable increase in strength within the first 3 weeks.
Strength slowly increases from 3-6 weeks, with slow gains thereafter.3 Overstressing a tendon repair
before adequate healing can result in gap formation and/or repair failure. Tendons undergoing a gap
greater than 3mm during the repair process heal at a slower rate, with lower ultimate tensile
resistance at 6 weeks compared to tendons healing with no gap.”

http://www.acvs.org/Symposium/Proce…/papers/122.pdf

I’d say what we have in layman terms, when translated to PE, is that a) you can’t use very high forces for long periods - you’ll have to take a break, otherwise you are just toughening your penis; b) working your penis for over a given duration daily (duration which is inversely correlated with the amount of the force applied) will more likely be counterproductive than beneficial; c) taking a deconditioning break can be the only way to start new gains; d) switching to different techniques can lead to new gains.

All the above is nothing new under the sun, it seems to accord enough with what most vets around here suggests. And of course, this is just how I’m reading all this.

Thanks man

I think I need to try reading through all the linked articles again when I’m not so tired, but if all the guys here are having a hard time synthesising this information into a simple approach then I don’t rate my chances :)

Frankly I agree with capernicus, in that, no matter what all the scientific data shows it all needs to be broken into principles of application of a tool or routine. Much of this turns to mud in our brains if details of the bio science don’t equate to something useful such as apply stress in 2 hour intervals and increase that stress in multiples at 24 hour periods. Even this can be too ridged to be practical in daily life.

Prolotherapy provides a very simple understanding of healing phases. When applied to daily life gains are easily accomplished and all that is really necessary is consistency or as much consistency as is possible without violating the principles of the healing cycles.


09-2003 BPEL:6.0x5.5

11-2004 BPEL:8.25x6.25 . . 9+ by Spring is the goal AIR CLAMP

Now BPEL:8 5/8 x 6 5/8 PE Weights

Ok read the whole damn thread! Good read!

I like the theory behind it cause I started PE the wrong way doing to intense workouts which resulted in several peyronies plagues.
I started low tension extender use and hanging and added already 0.4 inches.(maybe temporary till now)

OK

So the conclusion I get out of this theory to translate it into actuall PE work is for me this:

- I work my dick in cycles.

Daily:
I warm up and slowly induce creep.
I do this with an extender where I slowly increase the tension.
Once I reach that point of creep I switch to hanging weights.

With hanging weights I try to induce micro trauma.(which means I use more load then with the extender)
Once I feel/think I reached some sort of micro trauma I stop hanging. Then I fill the dick with blood with some edging or whatever(light jelqs/light pumping.)
Then I switch to very light extender use or some sort of wrap for the rest of the day.
—————————————————

To avoid overworking my dick I change the angle I attack my dick from day to day in cycles.
For example:
I hang/stretch/extend on day #1 straight down.
On day #2 straight out.
On day #3 straight up.
This should help the weakest parts that were micro-traumatized to rest a certain degree on the next two days(espacially during night). (They are still worked on the subsequent days but are out of direct focus)
————————
As my dick will get used to this I will slowly increase the load(weight,tension) after every cycle.
————————

Once I reach a plateau or the weights get uncomfortable I do a deconditioning break with very light load/exercise and/or focus 95% of my workout on girth.

Feel free to comment/feedback please.

Adding to above post

Also as I understood the more workload was put on the dick the time it needs to heal goes up.(logic for me)

This could add another dimension to a cycle in this way:

Example:
1 day straight down/1 straight out/1 straight up
*5 times

Then
2 days straight down/2 straight out/2 straight up
*2 times

Then
3 days straight down/3 straight out/3 straight up
*1 times

Then
A break or start again with 1 day/1 day/1 day

Sounds good Dickershwanz. If you are having gains then there has to be a merit in your approach. Actually, you’d deserve a premium for the sole fact that you read the whole damn thread. ;)

Originally Posted by marinera
Sounds good Dickershwanz. If you are having gains then there has to be a merit in your approach. Actually, you’d deserve a premium for the sole fact that you read the whole damn thread. ;)


Thanks. I skipped the arguing and sticked to the info provided which is excellent ;)
I think I got the gains from daily extender use, light hanging and bm hc stretches and probably stretched ligaments cause I hang a bit lower. Still there is always room for improvement in the routine.
I do realize that strenghtening and hardening of the penis is not so wise, If you want to avoid ending up using force that could injure you.

How is your opinion on working on lenght-goal before girth-goal cause you need more force to stretch a wider dick?

Originally Posted by dickerschwanz

….

How is your opinion on working on lenght-goal before girth-goal cause you need more force to stretch a wider dick?

I tend to believe it is true. The problem with a wider dick isn’t that much the thickness of longitudinal tunica albuginea, which shouldn’t vary appreciably, but the resistance provided by corpora cavernosa, due to the blood inside them. But the problem isn’t simple. For example, working girth gives a strong axial stretch, which can help with length gains. Some people referred they had the best lenght gains whit clamping.

Originally posted by Firegoat.
“I much prefer the theory of fibroblastically mediated type I collagen fibrillogenesis tissue remodelling, without inflammation and scar tissue, over the theory of complete tissue rupture/failure, with inflammation, followed by type III collagen deposited to form scar tissue in the injury gap.”

I completely agree !

I really think you would have to apply some serious force to cause the type of injury, scar tissue and toughening that we are so concerned about.
If low level stretching of fascia made it stronger how would surgical tissue expansion work, and how would Bodybuilders put inches on their arms ?

My own experience of flexibility training suggests, stretch every day, push a bit harder when it feels right, ease up for a bit if you get sore.
The only hard part is recognising the difference in feeling when you start to cause damage, that’s down to the individual to work out.
For the time being this is my approach to PE.

Originally Posted by marinera
I tend to believe it is true. The problem with a wider dick isn’t that much the thickness of longitudinal tunica albuginea, which shouldn’t vary appreciably, but the resistance provided by corpora cavernosa, due to the blood inside them. But the problem isn’t simple. For example, working girth gives a strong axial stretch, which can help with length gains. Some people referred they had the best lenght gains whit clamping.

You mean the tunica albuginea doesnt change much and doesnt provide resistance?

I have a peyronies plague(collagen gone wrong) that sits in the tunica very thick due to too strong girth work(bends! To hell with them).
It can’t expand and I guess it’s a major gain inhibitor.(while it’s already shortening my dick kind of).

I guess peryonies is a very extreme form of collagen type 3 stuff you guys spoke about midway in the thread.(?)

I think the wisest form to get as much gains as possible is staying right in the zone where there is just enough force/load that challenges the dick to “grow”.
Maybe more time needed to grow but much lower % to injury(but maybe I’m just paranoid cause I got injured.)

Yes, I mean : the thickness of tunica remains the same, even if the penis is wider - a fatter penis means that the outer tunica layer is longer, not thicker.

Peyronie’ plaques are basically plaques of scar tissue; not all forms of scar tissue in the penis are a form of Peyronie’ disease properly said, basing on what I’ve read, because in the Peyronie’ disease plaques have an higher degree of calcification and tend to born in different places, even despite any trauma as a cause.

You was diagnosed with Peyronie by a doc? If really it is a Peyronie’ plaque, then you should avoid high forces at any costs, because other plaques could born. A lot of heat and using an extender are the best option in your case I think.

Originally Posted by dickerschwanz
…..
I think the wisest form to get as much gains as possible is staying right in the zone where there is just enough force/load that challenges the dick to “grow”.
Maybe more time needed to grow but much lower % to injury(but maybe I’m just paranoid cause I got injured.)


I 100% agree.

Yes my doc diagnosed it. I’m diabetic + I sadly had poor control at that time(never do pe with bad blood sugar!)
Whatever it is,it is hardened material blocking part of the erection(not allowing cavernosa to expand at that point thus hindering gains in that area).
I’m ok with it and trying to correct/live it. Penis health is the most important then Gains are welcomed ,too.

And another question:

After a heavy load on the dick we should wait circa 48 hours(type 2 collagen) before next and similar heavy workout in that area? -> Cause we want the type 2 collagen.
- Tough we don’t know exactly after what workout we experience what build up of collagen/healing.
Hope you understand and I’m not mixing things up :)

The article says that the tissue remodelling reponse begins ‘between 3 and 7 days’ from the damage.

We want type I collagen, I think. Now, this refers to what happens after a grade II strain :
” ….Grades I, II, and III tissue injuries are described as follows (Andriachi
et al., 1987; Scuderi and Scott, 2001): Grade I sprains are mild stretches
with no discontinuity of the ligament and no clinically detectable increase
in joint laxity. Grade II sprains are moderate stretches in which some
collagen fibers are torn. Enough fibers remain intact so that the ligament has
not completely failed, but detectable abnormal laxity is present at the joint.
Grade III sprains are severe and consist of a complete or nearly complete
ligament disruption and result in significant joint laxity”

You are correct, we can’t know after which workout we have caused a damage like a grade II sprain; if we know this is the case, then we should take rest.

There is another problem: the article is referring to ligaments. Altough tendons and ligaments are similar, and tunica of the penis is similar to ligaments and tendons, there could be some differences; the remodelling reponse could begin before (or after) than it happens in ligaments, for example. The foremost problem we have is, I suspect, TA is scarcely sensitive to damage : if you have a strain in a ligament, you’ll have pain I guess. But you could have a substantial damage in your dick without feeling any pain. In your case, after the trauma that caused the scarring in your penis, you felt pain?

I wonder if the real problem with many no gainers could be that their TA is damaged too easily and the repairing process never has time to heal; they probably think : ‘I’m not working with enough intensity/frequency’ and add more damage, without never giving time to their penis to heal.

Originally Posted by marinera
The article says that the tissue remodelling reponse begins ‘between 3 and 7 days’ from the damage.

We want type I collagen, I think. Now, this refers to what happens after a grade II strain :
” .Grades I, II, and III tissue injuries are described as follows (Andriachi
Et al., 1987; Scuderi and Scott, 2001): Grade I sprains are mild stretches
With no discontinuity of the ligament and no clinically detectable increase
In joint laxity. Grade II sprains are moderate stretches in which some
Collagen fibers are torn. Enough fibers remain intact so that the ligament has
Not completely failed, but detectable abnormal laxity is present at the joint.
Grade III sprains are severe and consist of a complete or nearly complete
Ligament disruption and result in significant joint laxity”

You are correct, we can’t know after which workout we have caused a damage like a grade II sprain; if we know this is the case, then we should take rest.

I think we need to take the hints that sparkyx provides regarding positive and negative PI’S in these 2 threads:
Physiologic Indicators (PIs) to help growth!
Warning! If you haven’t gotten improved erections:

Do you see any correlation between the idea of negative PIs (Physiologic Indicators) and the grade strain we caused?
I have a strong feeling that linking these two makes sense.
To find it out some has to be very consistent and correct with collecting his own data.
-Workout type and load/time.
-BPEL before workout. BPEL after workout.
-Eq before and after workout. Eq next morning. Etc. ..
I’m ready to do this for my own.

Originally Posted by marinera

There is another problem: the article is referring to ligaments. Although tendons and ligaments are similar, and tunica of the penis is similar to ligaments and tendons, there could be some differences; the remodelling response could begin before (or after) than it happens in ligaments, for example. The foremost problem we have is, I suspect, TA is scarcely sensitive to damage : if you have a strain in a ligament, you’ll have pain I guess. But you could have a substantial damage in your dick without feeling any pain. In your case, after the trauma that caused the scarring in your penis, you felt pain?

No had never any pain. Just uncomfortable as it restricts my cavernosa to expand properly.

Originally Posted by marinera
I wonder if the real problem with many no gainers could be that their TA is damaged too easily and the repairing process never has time to heal; they probably think : ‘I’m not working with enough intensity/frequency’ and add more damage, without never giving time to their penis to heal.


That could be the case. Or they damaged it and it grew too strong thus hindering “easy” gains.

The indicator could be the PI’s I linked above.

I do know when I had a low load, medium load or heavy load - workout.
Logic says that the heavier the workout the more time any tissue needs to heal.
The PI’S can help us determining if there is just a nights sleep needed, 48 hours pause or a week deconditioning.
The best way to find this out individually for each, and finding out general tendencies for everyone, is to collect all data regarding exercises, PI’s and everything related to our penis/workout.

Marinera, what do you think would be valuable info/data that could help in our case to find a healthy and effective approach to PE?

I want to take this stuff to the practical level and for me it’s valuable as I feel I’m not very focused with my training.

We could collect some ideas about what data we need to find out to get a more answers.(I’m thinking of a spreadsheet where you can easily put in everyday data)

It is an hard subject. Although it could make sense a correlation, I don’t see any specific link between PI’s and TA strains, frankly. You should ask the same question to Sparkyx and Firegoat, maybe they can see something I’m missing.

Originally Posted by dickerschwanz
…..
Marinera, what do you think would be valuable info/data that could help in our case to find a healthy and effective approach to PE?

I want to take this stuff to the practical level and for me it’s valuable as I feel I’m not very focused with my training.

We could collect some ideas about what data we need to find out to get a more answers.(I’m thinking of a spreadsheet where you can easily put in everyday data)


Again, hard to say. I can just throw in some very personal guesses; first one, sometimes people refers their penis becomes more pliable; I think this could be a sign that there has been minor damage that is being filled with more collagenous tissue and/or a greater amount of elastin. When this state of pliability has been passed, I think too much damage has been caused.

Second, sometimes people speaks about the feeling of ‘itching’ or a ‘dull ache’. They often believe it is a good sign, that you are on the right path for gains; my opinion is that it is a sign that you have to take a rest - at least for a week.

Another sign is kinda a light burnig: I got this when using an extender; I think it is a sign that you have to stop using the extender for that day, because it resembles the feeling of an inflammation and because once I got this feeling my gains seemed to stop.

As far as I can say, there is no specific feeling that can suggests gains are coming : when I had gains, I had no ‘fatigue’ or ‘itching’ or anything like that previously. Any kind of even very minor discomfort is a sign that working more is going to harm your gains, IMHO.

Sorry, but I haven’t much more to offer. :)

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