Loading, lengthening, healing.

We agree to disagree on this issue.

Thank you for the link firegoat, I wasn’t able to find that great thread - very well condensed and informative.

We disagree on the physiological principles involved, but we both agree that hanging works.

In my previously referenced thread, I said in post 12 “Apart from the obvious holding of stretches longer by the dancer etc., they are also very consistent in their stretching. If you are PE stretching as I outlined in my OP, (not forcing it, just stretching to approx. max length and applying no more force than that), then you can safely stretch 6 days a week. If you are jelqing or clamping as well, your penis needs more rest”.

So we both agree on that, I hope.

However, I advocate taking a decon break when gains slow or stop, rather than just constantly upping the weight, as I believe it is not good to over-condition the tissues: from my first post in that thread:

“I think frequency and consistency of routine is important for another reason, other than the scar tissue theory. Collagen is a highly adaptive tissue (which is why there are so many forms of it). If you regularly place a load on it, it will find ways to accommodate that stress.

Place too great a load on it, and it will get tougher to resist potential damage.

Place load/stress on it which is toward the upper end of it's elastic range, and it will think it requires more ability to stretch, so it will increase its elastin component, allowing more stretch. This explains 'newbie gains' which appear fast but disappear when PE is stopped……..

However, with consistency, because the penis has 'other' functions to perform apart from just stretching, once the new elastin has reached a proportion where the tissue is too elastic, the collagen may convert to a more stable form, creating a plateau when no new growth is experienced. If at this point intensity is increased to try to overcome the plateau, the collagen will toughen up and new gains will become much harder to stimulate. If PE is maintained at a 'normal' level during the plateau for a while, gains can be consolidated so that they are not lost when PE is stopped.

At this point a deconditioning break can safely be taken without losing gains, and without having 'toughened' the penis. All body tissue has 'memory' to some degree, so it will quickly re-adapt to a state it has been in previously, if it is to it's benefit to do so. This is why it is not good to allow 'toughening' to take place; the penis will re-condition and the collagen become tough again very quickly.

After a deconditioning break, the whole process may be begun again.

In Monty's other thread he said “What I have noticed is that I have been forced into involuntary decon breaks and following those I have found that when I hang at my regular weight that I now swell and experience damage that I was unable to accomplish before. So Now I wonder if decons really do enable gains that before I would have to accomplish by fulcrums and perhaps greater weight intervals”.

So Monty’s more recent experiences are starting to confirm some of these ideas.

I do not advocate ‘creating damage’, but stimulating the elastin response. I won’t quote more of my previous thread, as I have provided the link to it a couple of posts back, so anyone interested in a concise explanation of it can read that thread.

So in summary I have no problem with guys hanging 6 days a week, but only to the level where it stimulates healthy adaptation in the tissues, and does not create damage and scar tissue. For long term gains, it is important to take decon breaks before the tissues get too conditioned, then start again at a low level and build it up again slowly.
If an ADS is used in between hanging session, it should only provide the minimum of pull to help avoid turtling, but not provide stress, thus still allowing the penis to rest so adaptation can occur.
If an ADS is used instead of hanging, it can be wound up considerably more. Low force over several hours will create a similar elastin response to hanging with just enough weight (somewhat more than an ADS would provide) for (say) three 20 minute sets.

So we are not so much disagreeing, as meeting in the middle.

Firegoat I’ve read your thread and agree with it except where you said, “once the new elastin has reached a proportion where the tissue is too elastic, the collagen may convert to a more stable form, creating a plateau when no new growth is experienced. If at this point intensity is increased to try to overcome the plateau, the collagen will toughen up and new gains will become much harder to stimulate.”

I haven’t found that. What I’ve experienced is the ability to break the plateau with either technique, i.e. fulcrums, or greater weight for a very short duration and then return to my normal weight. The results are that I haven’t had to increase my weights and yet my gains continue. So what I’ve concluded is that I”m actually breaking those tentative collagen bonds and they start over at trying to keep up with me. Consistency, like you said, is really the key here

I do agree hanging works I was more talking about when the growth phase started not stopped. I think this is were we are getting thing confused.

I see things in stages or cycles if you will first cycle is getting enough force or weight over time to cause the weakening of the penis structure lig tendons, tunica this takes x amount of time. Second cycle which I think is the most crucial part when the elastic phase as you call it I like the terminology this phase is were you use your ADS or extender more and weight sessions go down in time or weight you started on this until you can gain no more this is what I have seen in my personal growth and what I have read from others as well.

I think guys are stopping at this phase of there training and going straight to decon breaks this is what I am saying about not reaching there full potential in the growth phase.

What marinera is say is that you should stop here and allow the body to heal it self and you will grow. He also believes that healing doesn’t happen until you are at rest and I know the body doesn’t work this way it will try to heal it self no matter what, if it didn’t then people would be injuring them selves all the time from hanging and extending I hope you see the difference in the two way we see the body and how it functions

I agree there will be a point where you may have to stop but I don’t think may even get a tenth of the way to that point.

I don’t use heavy weights when hanging compared to most I hit 6 lbs for 1.5 to 2 hrs now in the morning and at night and stretcher during the day as much as I can keep it on with out it being a pain. I have noticed an increase in erections since I started training this way this last week.

Also I pumped this morning and hit the line on my water pump at 5 min when it usually takes me 10. I also past the line at 10 min which has never happened unless I go for 20 min which I don’t do because of fluid build up.

diesel, what I’m saying is posted here, no needs for paraphrases or translations.

Why you do it to me. Whats up with that?

If you get a sentence off the context, the meaning could change, and equivocals could born. That’s all.

In the specific, I haven’t said that adaptation can’t go on while light loads are used. What I said is this:
if a load so high to cause an injury is applyed, you have to give time to your body to repair.

Also, I’m sustaining my reasonings with something else other then “I believe - period.”. Can you see?

And, again, don’t take things personally: I’m not speaking of your hanging approach, but of the prevalent hanging theory, generally speaking (BTW, it’s not the same thing you seems to believe).

Back when I was hanging (2003/4), I used the linear approach to weight increases, and reached the point where I didn’t want to hang any heavier, but gains had stopped. I did try brief periods of heavier weights the same way as you suggest, but because I was already hanging quite heavy, I just felt it was taking me too close to potential injury. My only option was a decon break. After that, I again found I could gain with much lighter weight, but the tissue toughened up quickly again, forcing me to take quite regular decon breaks.

I took about 8 months off PE before I joined here, which allowed the tissues to completely de-condition, and when I started again I concentrated on a primarily manual routine. When gains slowed, I kept the intensity the same for a few weeks to consolidate the gains, then took a decon break for about 3 weeks, then began again with a light routine. It worked very well.

If I had not had the experience of getting ‘too’ conditioned, I would not have used this method. When giving advice to others here, I try to steer them in the direction of avoiding becoming too conditioned for that reason.

If, when I was hanging, I had not constantly increased the weight, but had kept it fairly low and just used brief periods of higher weight as you suggest, I imagine I would have been able to considerably extend the time between decon breaks. I think it is a sound and sensible way to proceed if you don’t want to take breaks. I use a similar method now with my manual routine; keeping a ‘base’ routine (basically the Newbie Routine) and adding brief periods of higher intensity work. Eventually, a decon break is still going to be a good idea; as you have found yourself, after a break you can get good results with less intensity again. I like your method Monty; it should allow gains to continue without conditioning too fast, and it should consolidate gains ‘as you go’.

As I’ve said before, there are many approaches to PE, and many of them seem to work, as long as people are consistent. I do think rest is needed between PE sessions; when I was at my most active in PE, we didn’t have ADS’s, so we traction wrapped, did piss pulls etc. All these methods allowed recovery between sessions, but stopped the tissues contracting. These days a very low tension ADS will do the same. I would always suggest at least one complete day off a week, even if one is only stretching/hanging. It’s not enough time for the tissues to begin converting elastic tissue to stronger collagen, but it is enough to help prevent any creeping injuries we may not be aware of, and it actually seems to allow the elastic tissues to relax out a bit; I get far better flaccid hang after a couple of days off.

Dancers, gymnasts, yoga practitioners etc. greatly increase the resting length of their muscles, tendons and ligaments through daily or at least very regular stretching. They do not need to remain in a stretched position between sessions in order to increase their flexibility, they just need to be consistent enough to not allow the tissues to contract too much between stretching sessions.

We know that their tissues are actually lengthened, rather than just becoming more elastic, because if you take a gymnasts limbs through their ROM (range of motion), they have great range before any significant degree of elastic resistance is encountered. We too only need be consistent, we don’t actually have to actively be stretching the tissues between PE sessions in order to lengthen the tissues.

Another thought: how could the supporters of the theory we are speaking of explain the “cementing phase” need?
I mean, if the tissue is healing while hanging, there is no need of such “cementing”, right?

P.S.:hello babbis, your ideas here would be welcome :) .

I have always emphasized that there is no need to find yourself in the very heavy hanging poundage area if you use an ADS between your sessions. Your right before we had relatively good ADS’s there was the problem of to much time lapse that could allow that nasty collagen to form before we could do anything about it. All we needed was some small family distraction or work requirement and we would find ourselves plateaued and stuck.

What I tell people today is start with as low a weight as possible and get the maximum gains out of it before moving up. I try to get people to use one or two pounds along with the manuals they’ve been doing and then when you’ve exhausted the gains out of that then start a heavy hanging routine with 5 lbs and do the same thing. This way when you reach your goals your not needing to hang 30 to 40lbs. That’s scary to me. Here I am at over 3 years of hanging and I’m just at the 20lb mark. I’ve almost made my goals so I can personally say it works, but is a lot of work.

Firegoat
I see from your sig, that you like to use heat.
Your know I have never been able to nail down whether heat really makes a difference. I know that it produces a greater elastisity but does it really contribute to gains?
I have tried and tried to collect meaningful data on the differences and just can not come up with anything significant.

I know heat feels good but I wonder if cold lig stretching doesn’t produce more tearing and therefor greater gains.

What do you think?

Cool thread marinera. I’m in the “no rest days during training” camp, but I’m not a follower of the theory you explain, just to be clear.

I don’t think rest days is needed while training, in fact, I think they have a negative impact on the progress. Healing suggest something has to heal, an injury of sorts. There’s nothing to heal during the training phase, since in my view your only dealing with elastic gains yet, so there’s no need for rest. But when you do get an injury, of course, healing and resting is important indeed (post-training phase).

I’m not ignoring your question Monty, but it feels a bit like being at work discussing this stuff on a Sunday! I’ll reply when I’m not chilling out. :)

Thanks, Dicko.

Your point of view, if I’m not wrong, is pretty similar to mine, like exposed in the #1 post. This despite the fact that you advocate no-rest days, where I advice at least 1 day rest per week.

Your post is useful for underlining again one of the major illogical (just in my opinion, of course) points that the prevalent hanger’ theory hides: rest-days are required exactly when it is supposed that a so high stress is applied that some sort of damage is caused (and so, needs of healing).

Now I’m wondering, in your perspective, after a certain period, this elastic elongation will become stalling, and some sort of micro-tears will be produced, in the manner that a rest will be needed - or your opinion is different on this point?