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Originally Posted by Dick Builder
Funny, it seems that you’ve drawn a different conclusion from the studies you’ve referenced than those in the field of physical therapy regarding elongation of connective tissue.

In other words, according to the articles you’ve posted physical therapists utilize manual techniques that apply tension for only a few moments and not six to eight hours to elongate connective tissue.

If light weight/long time was the Holy Grail for elongating connective tissue then why do you think it’s not utilized in the field of physical therapy?

Where is written they don’t use low loads-long time?

This fine article discusses “The effects of manual therapy on connective tissue”.
http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/reprint/72/12/893.pdf

Remember. You carefully pulled quotes from it in order to support your theories in this post.

Originally Posted by marinera
I think that this point is causing a bit of confusion to many readers. Some of them are assuming that I’m saying a thing that has no meaning, and some others are suggesting that my poor English is the cause why I’ve misunderstood things I’ve read.

It’s all ok, I know that this point is a bit difficult to understand. So, I want add a better explanation of the phenomenon I’m supposing is happening in that case:


Plastic deformation should not be confused with the phenomenon of creep (Fig. 6). When a load is applied
to a viscoelastic tissue over a prolonged period, the tissue will progressively deform until a new resting
length is achieved. If the load was within the elastic limits of the tissue, the tissue will gradually return to the
original resting length after the load is removed. In biological tissues, this phenomenon primarily represents the
redistribution of water from the tissue to the anatomical spaces surrounding the tissue.
……………..
One of the components of manual thrust techniques is to preload a tissue by “taking out the slack prior to
beginning therapeutic movement. This component is often referred to as “reaching the first point at which
resistance is felt,” a point sometimes called “Rl” in the manual therapy literature.
……………………….
The end result should allow the collagen fiber crimping to be removed from the CT and for some amount of creep deformation to occur. These are temporary lengthening phenomena demonstrating a damped elastic response and can easily be misinterpreted as permanent lengthening. Plastic deformation does not take place untll the forces within the tissue reach a higher level.
……………
The ligament deforms considerably at first. Elongation tends to plateau after 6 to 8 hours, although vely
gradual deformation can continue for months if the load is continued. The creep phenomenon is characteristic of viscoelastic materials and occurs at load well below those of the linear region of a stress strain curve. Creep deformation is not permanent, and the tendon will slowly resume its original length after the load is remove this response is called a “damped elastic response.”

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/reprint/72/12/893.pdf

If I’ve missed something please correct me. I don’t recall reading anything you’ve referenced that supports low load/long time as superior in lengthening connective tissue. Nor, have I read anything that supports rest days. In fact, it’s been quite the opposite.


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Dick Builder, that article explain the different effects of low loads and high loads.

In #69 I linked an article where is clear explained that tendons and ligaments needs 48 h just to start the repairing phase after an injury, is explained how accumulation of micro-failures lead to macro-failures (AKA major injuries), and if one has some difficult to understand what is written, there is a clear diagram related.

The references posted here sustain a different adaptation of tissue when low tension is applied instead then high tension - not a matter of superior or inferior.

I don’t know what, in your mind, are “my theories”, but I know for sure that you are not reading carefully this thread and are regularly bumping with superficial posts.

Originally Posted by marinera
Dick Builder, that article explain the different effects of low loads and high loads.


I’m terribly sorry. But, that article was discussing the differences between different therapists in the frequency, duration and exerted force applied to patients when lengthening connective tissues. Not, the differences between low and high loads as you’ve stated. Here is an excerpt from the summary and conclusion.

“There are almost no published reports
of the external forces, displacements,
velocities, accelerations, and
vectors generated in even the most
popular manual techniques.”

Originally Posted by marinera
The references posted here sustain a different adaptation of tissue when low tension is applied instead then high tension - not a matter of superior or inferior.


Again, that is what you would like for us to believe. However, not one of your articles on physical therapy utilizes low instead of high tension. In fact, the therapists described within this article apply high levels of force for only a fraction of a second in rhythmic fashion in order to elongate connective tissue.

Now, you may find my posts ‘superficial’ and have accused me of not ‘reading carefully’ but you keep skirting my question.

I’ll ask you again: If low tension / long duration is superior in elongating connective tissue why are physical therapists utilizing short duration high loads? Are they not ‘reading carefully’ either?


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Originally Posted by Dick Builder
I’m terribly sorry. But, that article was discussing the differences between different therapists in the frequency, duration and exerted force applied to patients when lengthening connective tissues. Not, the differences between low and high loads as you’ve stated. Here is an excerpt from the summary and conclusion.

“There are almost no published reports
of the external forces, displacements,
velocities, accelerations, and
vectors generated in even the most
popular manual techniques.”

Again, that article explain the structure of CT and basilar mechanisms of it’s adaptations. The lack of reports is referred to popular manual techniques, and specificaly the evaluation of force, acceleration extc. in manual techniques. As everybody can understand, unlikely a low load for many hours daily could be exerted manually. Low loads- long time tensions are applied using mechanical devices.

Originally Posted by Dick Builder
……….
Now, you may find my posts ‘superficial’ and have accused me of not ‘reading carefully’ but you keep skirting my question.

You haven’t read carefully: I hope that if you read carefully, yo can see the difference between physical therapy and manual physical therapy.


Although bony structures (such as osteophytes) can inhibit motion, a majority of all contractures are attributed to soft tissues such as ligaments, joint capsules, tendons, skin, fasciae, and muscles.'
Soft tis,sues behave in a viscoelastic manner. Tissue responds to mechanical loads and displacements in both an elastic (time independent) and a viscoelastic (time dependent) fashion. Viscoelastic materials respond differently according to deformation rates (rate of load application) and loading conditions.The most common types of loading used to reduce contractures are those that utilize the prop erties of creep (constant load, variable displacement” and stress relaxation (constant displacement, variable load).
Creep-based therapies apply a constant load over a prolonged period of time. Examples of creepbased therapies include what is called “dynamic splinting”(using devices that apply a constant load to a limb segment on either side of a joint with a contraction for 8-12 hours) and traction.

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/reprint/76/2/182.pdf

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
I am getting real tired of this shit gentlemen. Why does every rebuttal have to have a personal edge on it? You roosters trying to impress the other roosters or an unseen hen?

I’m getting tired of it too…I’m trying to find useful information, not hear you two get in a pissing contest…

Originally Posted by marinera
Again, that article explain the structure of CT and basilar mechanisms of it’s adaptations. The lack of reports is referred to popular manual techniques, and specificaly the evaluation of force, acceleration extc. in manual techniques. As everybody can understand, unlikely a low load for many hours daily could be exerted manually. Low loads- long time tensions are applied using mechanical devices.


Exactly my point! I just found it ironic that you pulled a short paragraph out of an article where physical therapists are utilizing short-duration high intensity forces in order to support your agenda of utilizing long-duration low intensity forces instead.

Originally Posted by marinera
You haven’t read carefully: I hope that if you read carefully, yo can see the difference between physical therapy and manual physical therapy.


You’re like a broken record with this ‘read carefully’ bullshit. Just because people disagree with your conclusions doesn’t mean they don’t ‘read carefully’.

Originally Posted by marinera


Although bony structures (such as osteophytes) can inhibit motion, a majority of all contractures are attributed to soft tissues such as ligaments, joint capsules, tendons, skin, fasciae, and muscles.'
Soft tis,sues behave in a viscoelastic manner. Tissue responds to mechanical loads and displacements in both an elastic (time independent) and a viscoelastic (time dependent) fashion. Viscoelastic materials respond differently according to deformation rates (rate of load application) and loading conditions.The most common types of loading used to reduce contractures are those that utilize the prop erties of creep (constant load, variable displacement” and stress relaxation (constant displacement, variable load).
Creep-based therapies apply a constant load over a prolonged period of time. Examples of creepbased therapies include what is called “dynamic splinting”(using devices that apply a constant load to a limb segment on either side of a joint with a contraction for 8-12 hours) and traction.

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/reprint/76/2/182.pdf


Funny, you pulled a paragraph out of the introduction of this case report that explains ‘creep based therapies’ that mentions a time period of 8-12 hour wear time. However, the actual treatment this patient was prescribed was a program consisting of applying the device for 5 minute stretch-and-hold intervals, 6 times for every 30 minute session, once a day, for the fist week. Twice a day for the second week and three times a day for the third and fourth week, for a total of 32.5 hours wear time.

This sounds very, very much like the manual and hanging routine that netted my gains, in other words, multiple daily sessions with no rest days.


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DB- is that 32.5 hrs of wear time totalled over 4 weeks? Or is that 32.5 hrs of wear time per week for 4 weeks?

Originally Posted by MagnumXXL01

I’m getting tired of it too…I’m trying to find useful information, not hear you two get in a pissing contest…

I’m finding all kinds of useful information here. Just take a look at the techniques the field of physical therapy is utilizing in elongating connective tissue.


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Originally Posted by optimalss

DB- is that 32.5 hrs of wear time totalled over 4 weeks? Or is that 32.5 hrs of wear time per week for 4 weeks?

I believe that was total wear time. But, don’t take my word for it, click on the link and read the article yourself. Afterwards, ask yourself ‘where the fuck were the rest days?


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Originally Posted by Dick Builder
I’m finding all kinds of useful information here. Just take a look at the techniques the field of physical therapy is utilizing in elongating connective tissue.

Yeah, that is a good thing. Your and marinera’s need to argue is not. Can either of you guys make a point without the bullshit? If not, this thread will be closed.


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DB,

That would not be alot as far as what were doing in PE. Modern estimate is from 1-4hrs a day with moderate loading 5-10lb. Some are saying that hitting it for shorter hrs 1-2 heavy load and 6-8hrs with light bungee or 1lbs tension might be a better alternative. It still addes up to less than your article.

And we all know the great Bib did 8-12hrs a day for a couple of years with moderate to heavy loads.

I will read the article when I have time. It sounds like it will give me confidence that if I’m hitting mine for 2hrs, with some varioation on the loading mostly medium in tension - daily, I’m doing more than enough.

The dynamic splinting you mentioned was “spanning a joint”. Are they trying to get some growth in the joint itself? I guess I have to read the article.

Originally Posted by optimalss
DB,

That would not be alot as far as what were doing in PE. Modern estimate is from 1-4hrs a day with moderate loading 5-10lb. Some are saying that hitting it for shorter hrs 1-2 heavy load and 6-8hrs with light bungee or 1lbs tension might be a better alternative. It still addes up to less than your article.

And we all know the great Bib did 8-12hrs a day for a couple of years with moderate to heavy loads.

I will read the article when I have time. It sounds like it will give me confidence that if I’m hitting mine for 2hrs, with some varioation on the loading mostly medium in tension - daily, I’m doing more than enough.

The dynamic splinting you mentioned was “spanning a joint”. Are they trying to get some growth in the joint itself? I guess I have to read the article.


I think you have to read the article that Marinera posted. I don’t believe there was any discussion about the amount of tension utilized. It seemed to be up to the patient to adjust, presumably based on her comfort level. I see similarities in this approach to that of a hanging routine that manages fatigue. One in which you slowly increase the weight to a level that causes discomfort then drop the weight slightly and hang for the remainder of 20 minutes. The weight that causes discomfort will be different for each person.


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Originally Posted by ThunderSS

Yeah, that is a good thing. Your and marinera’s need to argue is not. Can either of you guys make a point without the bullshit? If not, this thread will be closed.

I’ll give it my best boss.


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