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Length: Optimal Stimuli for Growth

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Length: Optimal Stimuli for Growth

Gentlemen,

First: I hope that we can approach this discussion with the right attitude. We are all trying to find the optimal way to lengthen our penises, we all have the same goal - marrying a certain opinion is useless.

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
I am getting real tired of this shit gentlemen. Why does every rebuttal have to have a personal edge on it? You roosters trying to impress the other roosters or an unseen hen?

This is Thunder’s lovely quote from the “Loading, lengthening, healing” thread of marinera.

Purpose: the purpose of this thread is to have a general discussion about the methods to stimulate length growth. The issue of recovery has been dealt with exhaustively on marinera’s thread, so I am not sure how much benefit we can derive from repeating it (it seems to be a dead end). There are a lot of topics to discuss. I originally began writing to marinera through PM’s, but he suggested that I start a dedicated thread (instead of discussing this on my log or through PM’s).

For right now, my main confusion is:

1. Anatomy: Ligament gains? How does this happen, and how do we ideally cause it?

2. Theory vs. empirical evidence: these seem to severely contradict each other.

Originally Posted by marinera
Originally Posted by LongVehicle
1. Bib provides three “tests” for PE’ers to perform to discover how much a potential for “lig gains” they have. Specifically, he seems to believe that the higher the exit point of the base of the penis on the pelvic bone, the more the opportunity lengthening the ligaments would provide to gain length from moving this andexit point lower and outwards on the pelvic bone. This seems to anatomically make sense. What do you think?

LINK: http://www.bibhanger.com/forums/php….php?f=10&t=316

2. Monty has, for a very long time, preached a belief that tissue fatigue must be maintained to allow lengthening to occur. Clearly, this was the main refutation of your thread. With this said, can you provide a synopsis your view of the optimal method for lengthening? Would using an ADS with weights (that may not only maintain an elongated tunica, but also ligaments) not provide a benefit on its own (low weight for many hours)? Clearly, the central principle is illogical (healing is negative, don’t let it heal, yet you must keep it stretched over time and allow it to heal in an extended state - this is self-contradictory), but what is the practical take away here?

3. When you mention “toughening” of penile fibres in your thread, what exactly does that mean? I read Firegoat’s post as well, but I am not sure that I have enough familiarity with the different tissue. Is the tissue composition changing, or only the quantity? Is the type of tissue changing, or is it a density issue?

—————-> note: would tissue “toughening” not mean gains of girth? Unless the composition of the tissue is changing, I cannot see how this would not cause girth gains. In fact, it seems to me that using heavy weights may be an ideal method for gaining girth, unless the composition of the tissue is changing, not its quantity/density.

——————————-> note: apparently tissue “toughening” (this seems that a fairly inaccurate term, but it seems to be prolifically used in the literature) is responsible for the “conditioning” part of gains, which almost all length PE’ers believe in. This is our hypothesis then, that developing greater tissue “toughening” is what causes gains to be “solidified”? Is this not extremely vague? It seems like an unsatisfactory hypothesis. Is there not a more precise way to describe it?

4. What role does scar tissue play?

5. It seems to me that the most critical aspect in getting ligament gains is to stretch (or hang, or swing) at a diverse set of angles (to the extent that the stretch is actually felt). I disagree with Bib’s obsession with the BTC (straight down while sitting with a horizontal pelvis) angle - he seems to use it and recommend it due to its stretching of the suspensory ligament, however, the “inner penis” is not literally an inner penis that can just come out. If one pays attention to the anatomy, the CS does indeed continue down, but the CC actually splits to the sides. What do you think of this anatomical issue?

6. What is penile tissue composed of, exactly? I cannot seem to find an answer on this. What kind of collagen is the tunica, ligaments, etc. composed of? The reason I ask is, it seems that some drugs (remember oxandrolone?) promote certain types of collagen formation. It is critical to know what kind of collagen or fibers we are dealing with.

I am sorry for all these questions. As you can see, I am very confused. Whatever commentary you can provide would be extremely useful. I can post this on my log, or you can just post your response there, and we can continue there if you would like.

Thank you for your help. I am trying to come to an understanding of the tissue that I am dealing with. Lengthening seems to be easier to understand than girth work (medically or theoretically), so I hope that I can develop some principles that are logical and then make good use of them in the coming months.


Hi LV, I’m fine and hope you as well.
Maybe a dedicated thread would be better because chances are that others will like to tell theirs opinion about your questions, but anyway feel free to post this reply wherever you feel is better.

1. Ligs gains play a negligible role in EL gains; this is shown by lengthening surgeries through cutting of suspensory lig: the gain is about 1/4” in EL and 1/2” in FL.

2. You can have length gains basically in two ways: stretching existing tissue, so without real growth, or growing tissue in a more strictly meaning: creating new tissue. To create new tissue, you have to a) create some degree of damage; b) giving your body time to repair damages.
Now, let’s say you have done hanging with a low weigth, so causing no real damage but just deforming existing tissue. To keep the deformation going, you can use an ADS; this will also fight the elastic reaction of connective tissue.

Adversely, if you have caused some degree of damage/inflammation, keeping pulling can only cause a delayed healing, neither is required to grow longer tissue : it will grow longer anyway.

3. Connective tissue can undergo many kind of changes: hypetrophy, hyperplasia, changes in extracellular matrix, changes in composition - more collagen and/or more elastin and even water content etc.. So the main point here is: whatever you do, over time your tissue will be harder to deform or grow. If you are using low tension to just stretch the tissue, it will come a time that the tissue can’t be stretched anymore - so it’s tougher.
If you are applying enough tension to cause real growth, this grow rate will slow down, the tissue will react to the stimulus becoming stronger. So we say ‘it’s tougher’ as well.
In both cases, also, tissue tends to become stiffer, for obvious reasons.

———>In reponse to your note, even if TA was toughening via hypertrophy, this would make little difference girthwise, because TA is very thin.

——-> second note:’solidified gains’ happens when tissue is deformed for a long time with slow tensions, or when real growth happens.

4. In normal circumstances, no role. It was an old idea that when stretching our penis we are causing scar production, so we have to pull to avoid that tissue becomes not deformable. This thought was the father of the ‘keep always pulling’ theory, probably. The basic assumption is false, see here for more:
Healing?
firegoat - Loading, lengthening, healing.

5. The inner penis is not going out, neither it would be a good thing if that happened. :) About ligs gains, I already said above; BTC hanging can be beneficial to lengthen the harder portion of TA, the dorsal thickening, so more productive than other angles in most of cases.

6. TA is mostly seen as very similar to tendons, so you can read about tendons to guess it’s composition. Strangely enough, it’s composition seems to be less studied than those of tendons or ligaments, probably because lengthening a tendon can be a ‘real life issue’ for most of Doctors, where ‘lengthening TA’ is ‘a mental issue’ to their eyes :) .
Things are also complicated by the fact that TA has more than one layer, and these layer could also have a different composition.

Taking substances that theoretically could have a positive impact on gains could not carry the desired effect or even be counterproductive. Somebody has tried those ways without so much luck - you can find some threads about on this forum.

For right now, I will comment on marinera’s response and then pose more questions as they come to mind. I am severely confused.

I know I said that discussing recovery was not the main topic, but I thought this may be useful.

marinera: I noted that you mentioned that you were not sure what “fatigue” meant for hangers in the LLH thread - this is Bib’s long post on his forum about it. What are your opinions of his view? To my knowledge, this is his most detailed description and argument for his view on recovery/healing/fatigue.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
I know I said that discussing recovery was not the main topic, but I thought this may be useful.

marinera: I noted that you mentioned that you were not sure what “fatigue” meant for hangers in the LLH thread - this is Bib’s long post on his forum about it. What are your opinions of his view? To my knowledge, this is his most detailed description and argument for his view on recovery/healing/fatigue.

(For some reason, I was unable to paste the quote). Here it is, below:

———————————————————————

For the vast majority of guys, it is silly to think they will gain without reaching fatigue, and actually feeling tissue deformation. Some guys have reported initial gains without becoming fatigued, but this generally does not last long within their PE career. Sooner or later they have to break some eggs to make a large penis. Whatever.

Soreness, or other descriptions of fatigue, are an indication of tissue deformation. PAIN IS AN INDICATION OF INJURY. The only thing holding back the measured parameters of an erection, either length or girth, are the tough collagenous tissues of the region, namely the longitudinal and lateral fibers of the tunica, and the various ligament structures which may hold the shaft close to the pubic bone. We are striving for controlled damage to these tough collagenous tissues, the culmination of which is gains.

From time to time, you may wish to stretch skin in a dedicated fashion. Divide and conquer. Moving the hanger attachment point back toward the base one half inch or so will generally place most if not all of the stresses on the skin. Then after a week or so, you can move the hanger attachment point one half inch toward the head, and all of the stresses should be on the tunica. It is simple to reach down, and feel whether the skin is taught or not, to determine what structures the weight is affecting. If you are stretching skin in a dedicated fashion, the same guidelines below apply concerning fatigue. You do not want to overdo skin stretch, and have to deal with cracks in the skin, etc.

Other than skin, and allowing time for the skin and other soft tissues to adapt to the stresses, you do not have to worry about gains within these tissues. If you can deform the tough collagenous tissues, tunica (shaft), and the ligs, then the soft tissues go along for the ride, as far as gains are concerned. It is only the tunica which determines the volume of blood which inflates an erection. Nerves will slowly generate to continue communications within the shaft, as gains occur. Blood vessels easily stretch. Smooth muscle within the three chambers will expand to the limits of the tunica to accept new blood volume.

Other than soreness, fatigue can also be described as the inability to continue hanging at a certain stress level. For example, you may have a max weight of ten lbs. IOW, you have, in the past, hung ten lbs for a full 20 minute set, in relative comfort. Then, in the next set, you may start with ten lbs, and at some point in the set, your body tells you that you MUST reduce the weight. The comfort level drops to a level at which you cannot abide. This means the tissues are giving way, nerves are being fired, and your body is telling you to cut back the stresses. This is a GOOD thing. The goal of hanging should not be a weight lifting contest, but rather a controlled method of deforming tissues in a regimented manner, in order to gain. You should strive to hang the least amount of weight, at any angle, which will bring on or sustain fatigue.

Nobody else can inform you of the correct stress levels for your situation. You must take the information your body provides during any individual set, and use that information to decide your next course of action.

When beginning your hanging career, you should ALWAYS start at a low weight, 2.5-5 lbs. You may or may not feel the stretch at these weights. Then, each week, if you are NOT reaching fatigue during your sets, you should increase the weight by 1-2 lbs. You MUST allow the soft tissues of the shaft, the skin, nerves, blood vessels, smooth muscle, etc, time to adapt and adjust to the stresses, not only of the weight, but adapt to the attachment point stresses..

At some point, you will reach a stress level that will bring on fatigue to the COLLAGENOUS TISSUES, within the first set or two of the session. This may be five lbs for some guys, or 30 lbs for others. Most report fatigue somewhere around ten lbs, but the range is large. The reasons for these differences are probably many, but the two which I believe are relative are pain tolerance, and the relative strength or weakness of each individuals collagenous tissue. At any rate, this is when you will need to begin managing fatigue, making decisions that will impact the relative success of your hanging.

Learning the differences between attachment point discomfort, and discomfort from the stresses provided by the weight, is somewhat of an art form. However, with a bit of experience, it soon becomes easy. Obviously, discomfort in the attachment area CAN BE a sign of poor hanger attachment technique or wrapping problems. But it can also be because of the weight, deforming the collagenous material of the tunica in and around the hanger. If you are able to tighten the hanger down, with little discomfort, then there is probably no problem with the soft tissues. Especially if you tighten down the hanger to a degree of slight discomfort, and then add the weight, and the discomfort goes away, then there is no problem with attachment technique.

Then, if you feel discomfort at the attachment point a few minutes after adding the weight, it is probably because of the weight stress affecting the tunica, a good thing. Of course, if there is discomfort in the head, then that is because of poor wrapping technique, or poor hanger adjustment or attachment. If you only feel discomfort behind the hanger toward the base, then this is most likely collagenous material deformation, either in the tunica or the ligs, a good thing.

The subject of choice of hanging angles is dependent upon the targeted next limiting factor, and is a topic for another thread. But in managing fatigue, the angles used, including whether or not you use a fulcrum, are important. It is very possible to become completely fatigued while hanging SO with a fulcrum at 2.5 lbs, and then switch to SO without a fulcrum, and hang 30 lbs. I have done it. So, I want to look at an example of fatigue management, at only one angle. But please realize that you may totally fatigue the target tissues at one angle, reaching the stage of fatigue where you cannot continue at any weight, and then be able to finish your session at even HIGHER weights while hanging at ANOTHER angle.

First, let’s assume you are totally adapted to the stresses of hanging SO with a fulcrum. You reach fatigue while hanging 7.5 lbs, barely managing to last for a 20 minute set. Obviously, the next set, you will probably not be able to hang for the full 20 minutes at 7.5 lbs. You can start out at 7.5, but be prepared to drop to six lbs during the set. Or, with personal experience, you may decide to start the set at six lbs. Then, considering what happens during the next set, you make another decision whether to stay at six, or drop to five. This continues throughout the session.

Please understand that at no time should you push the envelope, gritting your teeth and suffering to last through the 20 minutes. If you reach undesired comfort levels at 16 minutes or more, then end the set. If you reach undesired comfort levels at eight minutes, then reduce the weight. Use good common sense. You will NOT make any more progress suffering than not suffering. The only thing you will do if you suffer in discomfort is make it more likely to miss workouts, Pavlov’s dog, or risk injury. Again, slight to moderate discomfort equals tissue deformation, pain equals injury. You should know that the stress level is there, but it should not demand all of your attention. No clock watching. You should be able to concentrate on another task.

Now, what happens if, during the previous sessions, you were reaching fatigue at 7.5 lbs during the first set, but you do not reach fatigue during the current first set? Simply add one pound to the next set, and see what happens. You should not ever add more than 1-2 lbs above your previous max weight. There is simply no reason to do so. Especially when using a fulcrum, you have no idea how your body will react to a large new stress level.

After you begin to reach fatigue at the new stress level, you may or may not be able to begin your NEXT session at the new stress level. IOW, you may move up to 8.5 lbs, and reach fatigue during your second set of a session. Then the next day, you may start at 8.5, and quickly realize that you must reduce the weight. This is normal, and fine. Then, two days later, you may be able to go back to 8.5 for twenty minutes with no problem. Or you may find that two days later, you must reduce to six lbs during the first set. Just do what your body tells you to do, without other considerations. Hanging a certain weight because that is what someone has hung before, even at risk of injury, does not make one a hero. It makes him stupid. Be extremely HAPPY when you must reduce the weight. This is progress.

I believe I have written extensively about the process of healing in these tough collagenous tissues, how it occurs, and how to keep your gains. Each new session, the healing crinellations caused by previous stresses are pulled out, straightened out, helping to cause healing while in the extended state. Healing is going to occur, slower for some, faster for others. It can either occur in the extended state, or healing can return the tissues to their previous size, only stronger. As well as pulling out the old crinellations, significant stress levels cause new controlled damage, followed by new crinellations. It is hopefully a continuous process for as long as you wish to gain.

However, if there is a great deal of controlled damage, along with a great deal of fatigue, it may be impossible to hang for even one set at greatly reduced weight. In this case, you have probably overdone it, and need to take a rest day. Come back the next day, and see what your body tells you. But if you can, try to hang at lest one set at reduced weight, in order to pull out the previously formed crinellations, and help allow for healing in the extended state. I see no profit in rest days without reason. This only causes the soft tissues to become deconditioned, and for the collagenous areas to lay down new collagenous material, becoming stronger.

Finally, the reason to know the amounts of weight you are hanging, at any one angle, is to help regulate the amount of stress. But the amount of weight is NOT the only indicator of the STRESS LEVEL. Friction at some angles plays a big part in the total stress level, either more or less. For example, you can be hanging SO with ten lbs, with the skids of the hanger riding on the chair seat, then push your hips forward, allowing the hanger to move forward, then relax your hips, and the stress will be greater than ten lbs. Or you can leave your hips relaxed for the entire set, and the friction of the skids on the chair seat will make the stress level less than ten lbs.

The use of a fulcrum is a method of dividing and conquering. The rice sock, duct tape fulcrum especially targets the septum of the tunica. Fatigue comes relatively quicker within the septum. Without the associated tissues assisting in resisting the stresses, you cannot hang as much weight using this fulcrum. Therefore, the weight used is relative to the technique used. Ten lbs is not ten lbs is not ten lbs.

You must go by what your body tells you in any one situation, at any one time. Go by FEEL. Not some arbitrary weight. Once again, this is NOT a weight lifting competition. The only reason for a guy to ever be impressed by a weight amount hung is because of the controlled damage provided, and the gains attained. The goal is to reach fatigue early within a session, and to continue the fatigue for the rest of the session in a controlled manner, whether that requires two lbs or twenty.

I hope this helps. I am sure that things were omitted. Questions appreciated.

BiggerFor the vast majority of guys, it is silly to think they will gain without reaching fatigue, and actually feeling tissue deformation. Some guys have reported initial gains without becoming fatigued, but this generally does not last long within their PE career. Sooner or later they have to break some eggs to make a large penis. Whatever.

Soreness, or other descriptions of fatigue, are an indication of tissue deformation. PAIN IS AN INDICATION OF INJURY. The only thing holding back the measured parameters of an erection, either length or girth, are the tough collagenous tissues of the region, namely the longitudinal and lateral fibers of the tunica, and the various ligament structures which may hold the shaft close to the pubic bone. We are striving for controlled damage to these tough collagenous tissues, the culmination of which is gains.

From time to time, you may wish to stretch skin in a dedicated fashion. Divide and conquer. Moving the hanger attachment point back toward the base one half inch or so will generally place most if not all of the stresses on the skin. Then after a week or so, you can move the hanger attachment point one half inch toward the head, and all of the stresses should be on the tunica. It is simple to reach down, and feel whether the skin is taught or not, to determine what structures the weight is affecting. If you are stretching skin in a dedicated fashion, the same guidelines below apply concerning fatigue. You do not want to overdo skin stretch, and have to deal with cracks in the skin, etc.

Other than skin, and allowing time for the skin and other soft tissues to adapt to the stresses, you do not have to worry about gains within these tissues. If you can deform the tough collagenous tissues, tunica (shaft), and the ligs, then the soft tissues go along for the ride, as far as gains are concerned. It is only the tunica which determines the volume of blood which inflates an erection. Nerves will slowly generate to continue communications within the shaft, as gains occur. Blood vessels easily stretch. Smooth muscle within the three chambers will expand to the limits of the tunica to accept new blood volume.

Other than soreness, fatigue can also be described as the inability to continue hanging at a certain stress level. For example, you may have a max weight of ten lbs. IOW, you have, in the past, hung ten lbs for a full 20 minute set, in relative comfort. Then, in the next set, you may start with ten lbs, and at some point in the set, your body tells you that you MUST reduce the weight. The comfort level drops to a level at which you cannot abide. This means the tissues are giving way, nerves are being fired, and your body is telling you to cut back the stresses. This is a GOOD thing. The goal of hanging should not be a weight lifting contest, but rather a controlled method of deforming tissues in a regimented manner, in order to gain. You should strive to hang the least amount of weight, at any angle, which will bring on or sustain fatigue.

Nobody else can inform you of the correct stress levels for your situation. You must take the information your body provides during any individual set, and use that information to decide your next course of action.

When beginning your hanging career, you should ALWAYS start at a low weight, 2.5-5 lbs. You may or may not feel the stretch at these weights. Then, each week, if you are NOT reaching fatigue during your sets, you should increase the weight by 1-2 lbs. You MUST allow the soft tissues of the shaft, the skin, nerves, blood vessels, smooth muscle, etc, time to adapt and adjust to the stresses, not only of the weight, but adapt to the attachment point stresses..

At some point, you will reach a stress level that will bring on fatigue to the COLLAGENOUS TISSUES, within the first set or two of the session. This may be five lbs for some guys, or 30 lbs for others. Most report fatigue somewhere around ten lbs, but the range is large. The reasons for these differences are probably many, but the two which I believe are relative are pain tolerance, and the relative strength or weakness of each individuals collagenous tissue. At any rate, this is when you will need to begin managing fatigue, making decisions that will impact the relative success of your hanging.

Learning the differences between attachment point discomfort, and discomfort from the stresses provided by the weight, is somewhat of an art form. However, with a bit of experience, it soon becomes easy. Obviously, discomfort in the attachment area CAN BE a sign of poor hanger attachment technique or wrapping problems. But it can also be because of the weight, deforming the collagenous material of the tunica in and around the hanger. If you are able to tighten the hanger down, with little discomfort, then there is probably no problem with the soft tissues. Especially if you tighten down the hanger to a degree of slight discomfort, and then add the weight, and the discomfort goes away, then there is no problem with attachment technique.

Then, if you feel discomfort at the attachment point a few minutes after adding the weight, it is probably because of the weight stress affecting the tunica, a good thing. Of course, if there is discomfort in the head, then that is because of poor wrapping technique, or poor hanger adjustment or attachment. If you only feel discomfort behind the hanger toward the base, then this is most likely collagenous material deformation, either in the tunica or the ligs, a good thing.

The subject of choice of hanging angles is dependent upon the targeted next limiting factor, and is a topic for another thread. But in managing fatigue, the angles used, including whether or not you use a fulcrum, are important. It is very possible to become completely fatigued while hanging SO with a fulcrum at 2.5 lbs, and then switch to SO without a fulcrum, and hang 30 lbs. I have done it. So, I want to look at an example of fatigue management, at only one angle. But please realize that you may totally fatigue the target tissues at one angle, reaching the stage of fatigue where you cannot continue at any weight, and then be able to finish your session at even HIGHER weights while hanging at ANOTHER angle.

First, let’s assume you are totally adapted to the stresses of hanging SO with a fulcrum. You reach fatigue while hanging 7.5 lbs, barely managing to last for a 20 minute set. Obviously, the next set, you will probably not be able to hang for the full 20 minutes at 7.5 lbs. You can start out at 7.5, but be prepared to drop to six lbs during the set. Or, with personal experience, you may decide to start the set at six lbs. Then, considering what happens during the next set, you make another decision whether to stay at six, or drop to five. This continues throughout the session.

Please understand that at no time should you push the envelope, gritting your teeth and suffering to last through the 20 minutes. If you reach undesired comfort levels at 16 minutes or more, then end the set. If you reach undesired comfort levels at eight minutes, then reduce the weight. Use good common sense. You will NOT make any more progress suffering than not suffering. The only thing you will do if you suffer in discomfort is make it more likely to miss workouts, Pavlov’s dog, or risk injury. Again, slight to moderate discomfort equals tissue deformation, pain equals injury. You should know that the stress level is there, but it should not demand all of your attention. No clock watching. You should be able to concentrate on another task.

Now, what happens if, during the previous sessions, you were reaching fatigue at 7.5 lbs during the first set, but you do not reach fatigue during the current first set? Simply add one pound to the next set, and see what happens. You should not ever add more than 1-2 lbs above your previous max weight. There is simply no reason to do so. Especially when using a fulcrum, you have no idea how your body will react to a large new stress level.

After you begin to reach fatigue at the new stress level, you may or may not be able to begin your NEXT session at the new stress level. IOW, you may move up to 8.5 lbs, and reach fatigue during your second set of a session. Then the next day, you may start at 8.5, and quickly realize that you must reduce the weight. This is normal, and fine. Then, two days later, you may be able to go back to 8.5 for twenty minutes with no problem. Or you may find that two days later, you must reduce to six lbs during the first set. Just do what your body tells you to do, without other considerations. Hanging a certain weight because that is what someone has hung before, even at risk of injury, does not make one a hero. It makes him stupid. Be extremely HAPPY when you must reduce the weight. This is progress.

I believe I have written extensively about the process of healing in these tough collagenous tissues, how it occurs, and how to keep your gains. Each new session, the healing crinellations caused by previous stresses are pulled out, straightened out, helping to cause healing while in the extended state. Healing is going to occur, slower for some, faster for others. It can either occur in the extended state, or healing can return the tissues to their previous size, only stronger. As well as pulling out the old crinellations, significant stress levels cause new controlled damage, followed by new crinellations. It is hopefully a continuous process for as long as you wish to gain.

However, if there is a great deal of controlled damage, along with a great deal of fatigue, it may be impossible to hang for even one set at greatly reduced weight. In this case, you have probably overdone it, and need to take a rest day. Come back the next day, and see what your body tells you. But if you can, try to hang at lest one set at reduced weight, in order to pull out the previously formed crinellations, and help allow for healing in the extended state. I see no profit in rest days without reason. This only causes the soft tissues to become deconditioned, and for the collagenous areas to lay down new collagenous material, becoming stronger.

Finally, the reason to know the amounts of weight you are hanging, at any one angle, is to help regulate the amount of stress. But the amount of weight is NOT the only indicator of the STRESS LEVEL. Friction at some angles plays a big part in the total stress level, either more or less. For example, you can be hanging SO with ten lbs, with the skids of the hanger riding on the chair seat, then push your hips forward, allowing the hanger to move forward, then relax your hips, and the stress will be greater than ten lbs. Or you can leave your hips relaxed for the entire set, and the friction of the skids on the chair seat will make the stress level less than ten lbs.

The use of a fulcrum is a method of dividing and conquering. The rice sock, duct tape fulcrum especially targets the septum of the tunica. Fatigue comes relatively quicker within the septum. Without the associated tissues assisting in resisting the stresses, you cannot hang as much weight using this fulcrum. Therefore, the weight used is relative to the technique used. Ten lbs is not ten lbs is not ten lbs.

You must go by what your body tells you in any one situation, at any one time. Go by FEEL. Not some arbitrary weight. Once again, this is NOT a weight lifting competition. The only reason for a guy to ever be impressed by a weight amount hung is because of the controlled damage provided, and the gains attained. The goal is to reach fatigue early within a session, and to continue the fatigue for the rest of the session in a controlled manner, whether that requires two lbs or twenty.

I hope this helps. I am sure that things were omitted. Questions appreciated.

Bigger

———————————————

http://www.bibhanger.com/forums/php…c.php?f=10&t=28

Ligament Issues

LIGAMENT GAINS:

http://www.bibhanger.com/forums/php….php?f=10&t=131

http://www.bibhanger.com/forums/php….php?f=10&t=316

These are the two best explanations of Bib’s view on ligament gains.

marinera, what do you think of his description (inches of possible growth, and yet he also mentioning the plastic surgery procedure as a comparison)?

By the way: I am directing questions to marinera, but I would appreciate anyone to reply. The reason I am directing them to marinera is because he has a contradictory view, as well as a large amount of medical knowledge through his research here. I have also PM’ed sparkyx for his input, anyone else is more than welcome to discuss.

marinera, how do your views explain this:

A couple of months ago, I measure a gain of approximately .4 inches in length. This occurred while I was clamping and pumping, after I introduced water pumping into my routine. I water pumped for about 4x30 sets per day with many days of breaks between sessions, within 2 months of doing this I measured this new length suddenly. How did this growth occur? How does this growth fit into the LLH thread theory?

I am specifying my growth because, in the end, it is the only growth I am completely sure has occurred on the forum.

Note: the water pump allowed me to reach full erection level first (seal the vacuum at full BPEL), and then reach a BIT past that as the erection lost rigidity. I pumped at the pressure that maximized in-tube length for most of the time.

P.S. I have lost 0.3 inches in BPEL since I stopped pumping. Weird eh? I am talking about with no edema whatsoever, I was 0.3 inches longer than now (7.3 or so). Do you think this may have to do with elasticity?

Originally Posted by marinera
Hi LV, I’m fine and hope you as well.
Maybe a dedicated thread would be better because chances are that others will like to tell theirs opinion about your questions, but anyway feel free to post this reply wherever you feel is better.

1. Ligs gains play a negligible role in EL gains; this is shown by lengthening surgeries through cutting of suspensory lig: the gain is about 1/4” in EL and 1/2” in FL.

2. You can have length gains basically in two ways: stretching existing tissue, so without real growth, or growing tissue in a more strictly meaning: creating new tissue. To create new tissue, you have to a) create some degree of damage; b) giving your body time to repair damages.
Now, let’s say you have done hanging with a low weigth, so causing no real damage but just deforming existing tissue. To keep the deformation going, you can use an ADS; this will also fight the elastic reaction of connective tissue.

Adversely, if you have caused some degree of damage/inflammation, keeping pulling can only cause a delayed healing, neither is required to grow longer tissue : it will grow longer anyway.

3. Connective tissue can undergo many kind of changes: hypetrophy, hyperplasia, changes in extracellular matrix, changes in composition - more collagen and/or more elastin and even water content etc.. So the main point here is: whatever you do, over time your tissue will be harder to deform or grow. If you are using low tension to just stretch the tissue, it will come a time that the tissue can’t be stretched anymore - so it’s tougher.
If you are applying enough tension to cause real growth, this grow rate will slow down, the tissue will react to the stimulus becoming stronger. So we say ‘it’s tougher’ as well.
In both cases, also, tissue tends to become stiffer, for obvious reasons.

———>In reponse to your note, even if TA was toughening via hypertrophy, this would make little difference girthwise, because TA is very thin.

——-> second note:’solidified gains’ happens when tissue is deformed for a long time with slow tensions, or when real growth happens.

4. In normal circumstances, no role. It was an old idea that when stretching our penis we are causing scar production, so we have to pull to avoid that tissue becomes not deformable. This thought was the father of the ‘keep always pulling’ theory, probably. The basic assumption is false, see here for more:
Healing?
firegoat - Loading, lengthening, healing.

5. The inner penis is not going out, neither it would be a good thing if that happened. :) About ligs gains, I already said above; BTC hanging can be beneficial to lengthen the harder portion of TA, the dorsal thickening, so more productive than other angles in most of cases.

6. TA is mostly seen as very similar to tendons, so you can read about tendons to guess it’s composition. Strangely enough, it’s composition seems to be less studied than those of tendons or ligaments, probably because lengthening a tendon can be a ‘real life issue’ for most of Doctors, where ‘lengthening TA’ is ‘a mental issue’ to their eyes :) .
Things are also complicated by the fact that TA has more than one layer, and these layer could also have a different composition.

Taking substances that theoretically could have a positive impact on gains could not carry the desired effect or even be counterproductive. Somebody has tried those ways without so much luck - you can find some threads about on this forum.

1. Is there any other way then, that the inner tissue manipulation can affect BPEL? Also, can we have any link to confirm the 0.25 average BPEL increase from the maximum lengthening (or cutting) of the suspensory ligament? This would be helpful, as it could narrow our research into Bib’s (and hanging’s) main theory, which relies on the penis moving lower and out, somehow.

2. How can there be two methods of lengthening, one called stretching and one called growth? If stretching is in any way mistaken for growth, would the penis not be THINNER when in the stretched state?

How are you separating deformation and damage? Deformation here requires an ADS (or some contraption) to hold the penis at the maximum extended position for a period of time, such that it reacts by growing longer, while damage causes micro tears that then somehow heal in a longer fashion independently?

This reminds me of my pumping growth. I still have growth, but it is less than I originally had. It seems that this may be a form of stretching? I have read one of the pumping veterans state that although he gained a solid amount in BPEL, if he stops pumping for a period of time, a half inch will go away. What could explain this?

3. Okay, I will accept that “toughening” is some complex matter that we do not entirely understand. If so, how does the penis decide when to “toughen” and when to grow longer, in response to a stimulus? This is our major concern, we want one without the other.

a) note: What is TA? If this would make little of a difference girth-wise, how come so many hangers report base girth gains?

5. The inner penis issue is fleshed out in the two Bib links above, I hope you may comment on them. Bib has a DRASTICALLY different view of how the majority of his (claimed) girth gains were achieved.

6. I assume TA = tunica? Anyway, we apparently do not know enough about its composition so I will leave this alone.

Originally Posted by Bib
UNK,

>Why is it not a good idea to do girth work at the same time as hanging? I assume by “at the same time” you mean on the same day.<

Do not do length and girth work on the same day, week, month, probably year. Concentrate on one thing at a time. First do lig work consistantly, and in a dedicated fashion. Then do tunica work consistantly, and in a dedicated fashion. If needed, return to lig work in a dedicated fashion. Etc.

After reaching your length goals, begin to cement the length gains, while beginning to condition for heavy girth work (Extreme Ulis). Over a couple of months, you can progressively decrease length work, NOT REACHING FATIGUE, while ramping up girth work.

>I had not heard this anywhere before. Could you please explain?<

If you try to hang for length gains, and do heavy girth work at the same time:

The heavy girth work will make the hanger attachment point sore. In fact, it may cloud the true amount of target tissue fatigue, making it hard to judge how much fatigue you are creating in your target tissues for length gains.

Heavy girth work will cause fluid buildup which will make the foreskin sting when hanging.

Hanging and doing heavy girth work have the capacity to deform both the lateral and longitudenal layers of the tunica, which may heal back together, melding the two layers, and causing Peyronies disease.

The time you spend doing girth work would be better spent extending your length routine, giving more time for target tissue deformation, and a better chance at length gains.

Lastly, there is simply no reason to try and deform two tissue sets at the same time.

Now, please do as you wish.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
WTF? (Look at the bold section).

From my log.

Some old, very good posts

marinera posted this link in my log. There are some very interesting threads there that I have never come across (nor did I come across IPR either).

According to the first post, describing how the remodeling occurs: If it is all about micro-tears, shouldn’t ADS’s work the same way as heavy stimulus, except that they require less rest time and more use time because of breaking less “wooden strips” at a time? Why are we separating the stimulus of ADS from heavy hanging, aside from the number of wooden strips that are broken?

—> in other words, where does deformation in comparison to true growth come in?

—> and how could one gain .5 (or .3 in my case) inches in length with no edema from pumping that would suddenly disappear at a later date, while other parts of the BPEL growth remain (in that guy’s case, somewhere around two inches, in mine, somewhere around 0.3)?

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
marinera, how do your views explain this:

A couple of months ago, I measure a gain of approximately .4 inches in length. This occurred while I was clamping and pumping, after I introduced water pumping into my routine. I water pumped for about 4x30 sets per day with many days of breaks between sessions, within 2 months of doing this I measured this new length suddenly. How did this growth occur? How does this growth fit into the LLH thread theory?

I am specifying my growth because, in the end, it is the only growth I am completely sure has occurred on the forum.

Note: the water pump allowed me to reach full erection level first (seal the vacuum at full BPEL), and then reach a BIT past that as the erection lost rigidity. I pumped at the pressure that maximized in-tube length for most of the time.

P.S. I have lost 0.3 inches in BPEL since I stopped pumping. Weird eh? I am talking about with no edema whatsoever, I was 0.3 inches longer than now (7.3 or so). Do you think this may have to do with elasticity?

Just so no one comments about the issues in measurement: I am not sure how much I gained because I measured from the SIDE originally. I assume that I was probably 6.7 BPEL originally. I am now exactly 7.0 BPEL (I have measured this consistently for the last few days). I was 7.3 BPEL when I stopped pumping about two weeks ago.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
………..
Soreness, or other descriptions of fatigue, are an indication of tissue deformation. …….

Other than soreness, fatigue can also be described as the inability to continue hanging at a certain stress level. …..


This very very long post really contains only this two lines that attempt defining fatigue. ‘Soreness or the inability to continue hanging at a certain stress level.’ First point these are two different things. I could be able to continue hanging despite soreness, agree? Then, what this ‘inability’ is exactly?

I know some can think this is just a formalistic question; well, for me it’s not.

But the real question is: why you are feeling fatigued? What’s causing that? How can you be sure that when you feel this soreness than you have caused microtears? What’s the backup for that? TA is similar to tendons; you may know that most of tendons injury aren’t preannounced by any feeling of fatigue. Fatigue is felt on muscles, if we are speaking of physical fatigue.

Further, Bib seems to confound physical fatigue with the meaning that fatigue is used in physical science, expecially in metallurgy: here ‘fatigue’ means the cyclical application of a load that cause the total failure - so, the rupture, breaking of a given material. It is basically a rupture caused by frequence: the time required to cause a rupture is a function of the number of times the load is applied, so frequence is more relevant than load.

Creeping is when a load is applied for a long time: here, failure is a function of time. Before failing, the material will deform: this is the method that, theorically, will cause the most plastic deformation before failure.

Finally, you can apply a so high load to cause the failure of the material: in this case, nor cycles neither time are the foremost variables, but load. Before failing, the material will deform to a certain degree.

So, of all methods that you can use to cause total failure or rupture of a given material, fatigue is the one that will cause the less degree of deformation. This, when we are speaking of non living things. But we are interested in biological tissues, living material, that will not just deform or break but can repair himslef, inflammate, become stronger etc. etc..

Originally Posted by LongVehicle

LIGAMENT GAINS:

…….

I think these ideas are linked to the LOT theory, so anyone interested can just do a search about.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
marinera, how do your views explain this:

A couple of months ago, I measure a gain of approximately .4 inches in length. ….. Do you think this may have to do with elasticity?


I guess yes, those were just elastic gains that were achieved way too faster to give the viscoelastic properties of your TA to stabilize them. But of course there could be alternative or concurrent explanation: maybe your smooth muscles were expanded/strengthened so you could reach an higher level of erection, just to say.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
1. Is there any other way then, that the inner tissue manipulation can affect BPEL? Also, can we have any link to confirm the 0.25 average BPEL increase from the maximum lengthening (or cutting) of the suspensory ligament? This would be helpful, as it could narrow our research into Bib’s (and hanging’s) main theory, which relies on the penis moving lower and out, somehow.
……..


This is well known, post about this topic were posted many times on this forum. A quick search give this:
” Penile lengthening: the most common technique to lengthen the penis is to cut its suspensory ligament then perform plastic surgery to provide additional skin to cover its new length. The results are difficult to judge, as surgeons have not collected data in a systematic manner. The results of the only reliable study indicate that dividing the suspensory ligament alone results in an average increase of 0.5cm (around 0.25in) in length, while skin advancement increases the length gain to 1.6cm (around 0.75in). These figures do not compare well with the claims made by some clinics. Some people, undoubtedly, do better than average, while others do worse.

The suspensory ligament does have a role, in that it helps keep the penis pointing upwards during erection. After it has been divided, that support is no longer present. After surgery, some men find that they have gained a small increase in flaccid length, but the erect penis is about the same size and now points towards the floor!”
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/mensheal…s/penissize.htm

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
…..
2. How can there be two methods of lengthening, one called stretching and one called growth? If stretching is in any way mistaken for growth, would the penis not be THINNER when in the stretched state?

How are you separating deformation and damage? Deformation here requires an ADS (or some contraption) to hold the penis at the maximum extended position for a period of time, such that it reacts by growing longer, while damage causes micro tears that then somehow heal in a longer fashion independently?

This reminds me of my pumping growth. I still have growth, but it is less than I originally had. It seems that this may be a form of stretching? I have read one of the pumping veterans state that although he gained a solid amount in BPEL, if he stops pumping for a period of time, a half inch will go away. What could explain this?
………..


No, it not would be thinner. There are two layers of TA (yes, it means tunica albuginea), one is responsible for length size, the other one for girth size. Here you are for example:
The Anatomy of the Tunica Albuginea in the Normal Penis and Peyronie's Disease

Gerald Brock, Geng-Long Hsua, Lora Nunesa, Burkhard von Heyden and Tom F. Lue,

aDepartment of Urology, University of California School of Medicine, San Francisco, California.

The tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa is a bi-layered structure with multiplelayers. Inner layer bundles support and contain the cavernous tissue and are oriented circularly. Radiating from this layer are intracavernous pillars acting as struts, which augment the septum and provide essential support to the erectile tissue. Outer layer bundles are oriented longitudinally.These fibers extend from the glans penis to the proximal crura, where they insert into the inferior pubic ramus. There are no outer layer fibers between the 5 and 7 o’clock positions. Elastic fibers normally form an irregularly latticed network on which collagen fibers rest.”
Tunica albuginea layers

So, if you lengthen the longitudinal layer, you are not thinning the circular layer. Tunica albuginea is also very thin, so even if it became thicker, it would make little or no difference in girth.

Yes, low tensions, like using an ADS, will cause simple viscoelastic deformation, without appreciable growth neither damage, if the tissue is in normal, healty conditions. Micro-tears, or damage if you prefer, are caused by higher loads, that stimulate structural changes in tissue. And they will tend to grow longer if you let it heal because
a) the resting length of intact fibers will be longer in relaxed state and
b)because the body has his own ‘smartness’, if it’s clear what I mean.

Have you heard of people who have a routine with a lot of days off and a with many deconditioning breaks? How their gains could be explained? This is the only way, as far as I know.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
……
3. … If this would make little of a difference girth-wise, how come so many hangers report base girth gains?


Because mechanism that I’ve explained elsewhere (maybe not that clearly, but my English is not perfect, you know);

basically, I think it’s kind a rebound effect: when you remove the hanger, and the weight, the blood in your penis is pulled with a lot of force toward your penis base, enlarging the TA in that section.

Also, most of the tension when hanging downward is sustained by the base of your penis, as I think you feel. This can cause hypertrophy of fundiform and suspensory ligaments, so enalrging the base of the penis.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle

5. The inner penis issue is fleshed out in the two Bib links above, I hope you may comment on them. Bib has a DRASTICALLY different view of how the majority of his (claimed) girth gains were achieved.


We are again on ‘LOT theory - pulling your inner penis out - ligs gains’. I think this is already covered by many posts. ModestoMan and Westla refuted the LOT theory well before me, so I could just repeat in a worse form what they have explained. MM made also a geometrical model to test the LOT theory, showing that is not believable.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle

By the way: I am directing questions to marinera, but I would appreciate anyone to reply. …

Great! I was fearing I was the only one who had to answer your questions. :D

Originally Posted by marinera
This very very long post really contains only this two lines that attempt defining fatigue. ‘Soreness or the inability to continue hanging at a certain stress level.’ First point these are two different things. I could be able to continue hanging despite soreness, agree? Then, what this ‘inability’ is exactly?

I know some can think this is just a formalistic question; well, for me it’s not.

But the real question is: why you are feeling fatigued? What’s causing that? How can you be sure that when you feel this soreness than you have caused microtears? What’s the backup for that? TA is similar to tendons; you may know that most of tendons injury aren’t preannounced by any feeling of fatigue. Fatigue is felt on muscles, if we are speaking of physical fatigue.

Further, Bib seems to confound physical fatigue with the meaning that fatigue is used in physical science, expecially in metallurgy: here ‘fatigue’ means the cyclical application of a load that cause the total failure - so, the rupture, breaking of a given material. It is basically a rupture caused by frequence: the time required to cause a rupture is a function of the number of times the load is applied, so frequence is more relevant than load.

Creeping is when a load is applied for a long time: here, failure is a function of time. Before failing, the material will deform: this is the method that, theorically, will cause the most plastic deformation before failure.

Finally, you can apply a so high load to cause the failure of the material: in this case, nor cycles neither time are the foremost variables, but load. Before failing, the material will deform to a certain degree.

So, of all methods that you can use to cause total failure or rupture of a given material, fatigue is the one that will cause the less degree of deformation. This, when we are speaking of non living things. But we are interested in biological tissues, living material, that will not just deform or break but can repair himslef, inflammate, become stronger etc. etc..

I wanted to post the entire post, despite its length, to give us a feeling of Bib’s method of hanging, since (basically) the majority of hangers seem to follow what he does.

I also agree that the “fatigue” issue is obscure. For me, I have only noticed fatigue when 1) my inner structures were significantly sore, but this stopped happening now and 2) when it has come to a point where the hanger is causing too much stress on the penis itself.

I want to note something marinera. You mentioned in the LLH thread that the similarity between small tears and big tears (I cannot remember, but basically between deforming fatigue and injury) is very similar (600 to 800 units I think?). This does not seem to make sense empirically, and raised a red flag with me. How many Bib-style hangers do we know that injured themselves? If that model is correct (the two are so close, or that they are even doing the first), then a few should have injured themselves.

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