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Length: Optimal Stimuli for Growth

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
Exactly. There are several missing “C’s” to explain how these high-volume, high-load hangers gain. ….


Well, first point, volume of work should be load x time. So maybe you mean ‘high time, hig load hangers’.
I have to say that there aren’t som many of this kind of hangers; those who use high weigths do hang very short time and take days off. And some are gaining (look that I’m not saying that this is optimal).

Those ‘high volume hangers’ use light weights. We above agreed that the idea of viscoelastic deformation can explain their gains. Now you are saying the adverse?

By what I’ve read around, gains of hangers aren’t that different than gains of extenders’ users.

If those gains can be explained only by viscoelastic deformation or there is another mechanism going on (cellular proliferation, for example, read the LLH thread if you want to read something about), this is hard to understand.

marinera,

As I said, I am not trying to refute any claims made so I will not address each point individually. Instead, I have listed the major topics in your post:

1. I know you have no preconceived strategy. In essence, you argued against the argument of the “you have to hang the most you can… otherwise the penis will become stronger.” This was sucessful. Instead of coming up with another “C” (argument for WHY long periods of hanging have been beneficial - as they have), you move away from this entirely and support some mixed form of ADS use followed by higher weight lengthening. I will not quote the posts, you surely remember what I am referring to. My point was that: that strategy seems to have works for many people. I KNOW it is not because of avoiding healing - but it still worked. Why?

2. I did not come across these injury threads, thank you for posting them. The majority of my readings on this website have been about girth work.

3. I mentioned Xenolith NOT because of his method of failure and recovery cycling, but rather because of his extremely descriptive posts, that included empirical “evidence” of ligament change.

4. Ironaddict was following Bib’s hanging advice to the T. Read his log, or his pictures thread, or PM him. He tried to get a significant number of sets in daily, he moved up in weight when gains stalled, etc. To my knowledge, he is still hanging and gains were resumed by switching angles, using a fulcrum, and increasing weight.

5. VERY good point. The argument is irrefutable in nature.

6. I used volume colloquially to mean frequency within a “workout period” - as in number of sets per workout day.

Okay: this is my commentary on what you just posted. You should not refute it, because I believe we need to set out exactly what we are discussing, if we wish to proceed. Read more in the next post.

So, marinera:

This is somewhat unrelated, but I would like to explain why I am not being rigorous in this discussion. We do not have enough anatomical knowledge to reach serious conclusions about what is right or wrong. Your thread provides hints, but as the major medical poster said in the beginning…this is primarily a useless discussion. So why would we discuss this? What is our incentive? Our incentive would only be to be able to provide some theory or level of work (similar to published material in an academic field) that could provide us some utility. Unfortunately, PE is somewhat secretive, and for that reason, we cannot gain this utility. So sitting here and discussing things for the purpose of providing a better platforms for LATER researchers to come to better conclusions is a waste of our time. Our only real benefit here would be to derive some framework that could provide US better GAINS. US = you and I, not later generations who will have better anatomical knowledge.

So in essence, I am not being rigorous because I cannot see much utility from this. I have realized that the majority of what is being discussed is not helpful for my personal gains, ie I will probably not reach a conclusion that will directly make my gains better (A is causing B to happen because of…eureka, C!). However, what may be useful for my gains is to ignore C, wad through the various A’s and B’s, implement them in my regimen, and try to see if I cannot derive a method that will work in my case, without finding out why or how it worked specifically because I probably can’t.

Now tell me, how has your theorizing, article posting, refuting and arguing changed your opinion of how to maximize B from A? Let’s ignore C. What is the optimal stimuli for growth, from the many reliable posters’ experiences that we have seen?

That is my question and that is what I think will yield the best utility for both of us.

————-

Off-topic: When I mentioned empirical evidence being contrary to your discussions, I meant those who hung 4-8 sets per day on average with some rest days (once a week or so). They hung relatively heavy sets, changed angles often, increased weights as time went along. This is not Bib, but the ideal Bib-follower (Bib was far more extreme in his volume). There are many of them in the forums here and on his forums who have made 1-2 inch gains, many noted inner structure and point of exit change, along with a lengthened tunica.

I just wrote this to clear up any confusion. I will call these the “Bib-followers” from now on, if we refer to them in the discussion again.

Xenolith log has nothing to do with the ‘Hang all the hours you can everyday’ etc. etc.. You cited him to backup the ‘empirical evidence’ that this approach works, LV.

About Ironaddict:

Originally Posted by epic777
Great gains Iron Man! What PE technique would you say gave you the most gains?


epic777 - 1 year roughly Comparison pics. Big gain

Originally Posted by ironaddict69
Epic: I have done literally everything, and it all seemed to do a tiny bit.


ironaddict69 - 1 year roughly Comparison pics. Big gain

Same page:

Originally Posted by ironaddict69
…….
I have been clamping A LOT lately, in fact it’s all I am doing besides a few jelqs. I gave up hanging and probably for good. I realized I am “long enough” even though I will always want one more inch, I know hanging is not going to give it to me, so I went back to the TGC theory 100%


ironaddict69 - 1 year roughly Comparison pics. Big gain
Humm..sounds like a plateau? I seems to recall he took a decon-break? Does it fit whit ‘your empirical evidence’?

>>My point was that: that strategy seems to have works for many people. I KNOW it is not because of avoiding healing - but it still worked. Why?<<
Because there wasn’t anything to heal?

>>Okay: this is my commentary on what you just posted. You should not refute it, because I believe we need to set out exactly what we are discussing..<<
Yeah, that’s exactly the point: understanding what we are discussing.

Originally Posted by marinera
Xenolith log has nothing to do with the ‘Hang all the hours you can everyday’ etc. etc.. You cited him to backup the ‘empirical evidence’ that this approach works, LV.

About Ironaddict:

epic777 - 1 year roughly Comparison pics. Big gain

ironaddict69 - 1 year roughly Comparison pics. Big gain

Same page:

ironaddict69 - 1 year roughly Comparison pics. Big gain
Humm..sounds like a plateau? I seems to recall he took a decon-break? Does it fit whit ‘your empirical evidence’?

Originally Posted by ironaddict69
My routine has been all over the place until I decided to do just hanging. I would pump, hang, clamp, and I didn’t really gain anything. My tunica was, and still is so tough it’s ridiculous. It is tough to the point where it doesn’t hang like a flaccid should unless most conditions are right. But It wasn’t working very well. I could never figure out the LOT theory, then I would read it didn’t matter, but we know ligs do max out, but then after they are, couldn’t the tunica still stretch? There is too much to ponder and think about. That drove me insane. Mo

**Moving on with the routine as I know that is what most of you are wondering about.

I started literally getting obsessed with this. I would be hanging for 7-8 sets a day. I cannot believe my GF (now ex, but not because of any of this) supported it. I treated her well, so that helps, but she thought I was very crazed. It already kind of hurt her, but that did not, and still doesn’t matter to me. Please don’t take that out of context. I switched from someone who loved to pound, to someone who would say “It’s okay babe I’m not frustrated with you, just go slow until it doesn’t hurt” But the point was, I never stopped hanging, and I told her I would not stop until I reached 9 inches.

When gains stalled, and I didn’t see anything for about 6 months, it hit me way too hard. This period was with a girl and was before the last one. Once again, she didn’t care, but it was all I could think about. I was her biggest, it is like I was competing against myself.
**A note to all my brothers, I kept my weight at 15 lbs thinking it was enough, DO NOT EVER THINK THAT WAY**
If you have got strong ligs, made “good” (I put them in quotes because I’m not even happy with mine) gains already, face it dude, eventually you might be hanging with the upscale of 30 lbs. I know I am FAR from done and If I do any straight angle I am doing 23 lbs.

So I started doing bundled hanging, RSDT hanging, and combining the both. Wow it was refreshing to get fatigue from only 13 lbs! I jelq in between sets, probably 150 reps total throughout the day, aka nothing. I suppose I should start doing bends against my curve, If I could straighten myself out, Id be very close to my goal.

14th post. In other posts he directly comments that hanging was the solution for his length gains, etc.

Please don’t waste time refuting every point. IA in particular changed his views routinely through the thread, but the gains came from hanging primarily from what I understood.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
….
Now tell me, how has your theorizing, article posting, refuting and arguing changed your opinion of how to maximize B from A? Let’s ignore C. What is the optimal stimuli for growth, from the many reliable posters’ experiences that we have seen?
….


That is where the question becomes circular. We can’t say what the best PE regimen is if we don’t know what causes growth and how. Saying : do X sets of hanging for Y times per week with Z weight is better than manual stretching 30 minutes…. has little or no meaning. Things varies largely from a guy to another. Why? If we do have a clue, we can think what’s the best way, if not, we tend to become dogmatic and say the same medicine is good for everyone. Not true.

Besides how my ideas about how growth occurs (not definitely fixed), I can only say: find what works for you. About frequence: find what works for you. It is all we can say if we don’t have an understanding of what causes growth.

Now, it seems this thread is becoming about ‘Long Vehicle debunking Marinera’. This is not what the title says, and what the OP suggest. So I’ll leave it for a while. I’ll read what others have to say about - I see Sparkyx is online, I hope I’ll like to post because his are always good post to read.

See you later.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
14th post. In other posts he directly comments that hanging was the solution for his length gains, etc.

Please don’t waste time refuting every point. IA in particular changed his views routinely through the thread, but the gains came from hanging primarily from what I understood.

Originally Posted by ironaddict69
I did the newbie routine for possibly four months, then took up hanging. Then pumping, and then clamping. Hanging really pissed me off, however I did get .5” from it, when I bet the same time hanging most people get 1” I hung for hours and hours everyday.


ironaddict69 - 1 year roughly Comparison pics. Big gain

Ironaddicat has gained 1.125” in total.
/pedata/data.php?username=ironaddict69
0.5” from hanging. I would not say that the ‘gains came primarily from hanging.’ As he wrote about himself, he did near everything gaining a tiny bit from each.

Originally Posted by marinera
Now, it seems this thread is becoming about ‘Long Vehicle debunking Marinera’. This is not what the title says, and what the OP suggest. So I’ll leave it for a while. I’ll read what others have to say about - I see Sparkyx is online, I hope I’ll like to post because his are always good post to read.

See you later.

marinera,

You seem to be somewhat emotional. If I have caused you to be upset because I did not actively participate in the specific discussion you provided, I am sorry for this. The reason I stopped discussing things and said that this was futile is because after I started the thread and made my posts, my view changed. My initial (selfish) purpose was to figure out, in essence: is there any anatomical/medical conclusion that refutes certain methods of lengthening and promotes others? Or, in other words, I wanted to clear up my confusion. After posting, I read more and realized that everyone is confused, and decided it was not worth discussing. Firegoat said it best in your thread:

Originally Posted by firegoat
I’ve said many times that there are so many methods of PE that work. It doesn’t matter how or why they work, only that they do. And when one method stops giving gains, it’s time to vary the routine. We find what we like and what works for us; it’s trial and error.

I try not to get sucked into the ‘science’ threads unless someone is putting forward dangerously wrong ideas. I read hundreds of pages of research a year on connective tissue, but I can still only hypothesize on exactly how it relates to PE. Some guys read one article and base their whole theories around it. Maybe that approach just feels right to them, or they have used it and gained, so they ‘like’ that method and want to champion it.

Plenty of guys post their progress threads; some use high load/short duration, some low load/long duration. Some mostly work on girth, some on length. Some do PE every day, some only a couple of times a week.

We are working, ligs and tunica, girth and length, erection strength, etc. there are too many variables to say ‘this approach will work best, because science says so’.

I returned and posed the question in the aforementioned post to you because I was under the impression that you really wanted to discuss the issues, as you replied to my reply to sparkyx that stated that this effort was useless, in essence. So I thought, if you want to discuss anything, at least it should be beneficial.

Again, I am sorry for wasting your time - this is because I wanted to clear up my confusion, and then changed my mind midway and realized the thread was not worth continuing in essence. The reason I continued is because of my respect for you, your work here, and your good discussions - exclusively. I hope that this waste of your time will not leave you with a negative attitude toward me, as I believe at other times I’ve provides some beneficial posts here for others as well.

Finally, a parting word:

Originally Posted by marinera
That is where the question becomes circular. We can’t say what the best PE regimen is if we don’t know what causes growth and how. Saying : do X sets of hanging for Y times per week with Z weight is better than manual stretching 30 minutes…. has little or no meaning. Things varies largely from a guy to another. Why? If we do have a clue, we can think what’s the best way, if not, we tend to become dogmatic and say the same medicine is good for everyone. Not true.

You are referring to causality, and saying that understanding causality is necessary to benefit from any discussions here. I agree that understanding causality would be the golden key to PE - I just said that it has become clear to me that I will not effectively understand it by pursuing this discussion further.

Is causality the only way to utilize variables in a system? Not at all. Consider the process as a black box. We cannot see what is happening inside the body. We see stimuli, recovery, fatigue, and results (among other things). These are the variables we see - we do not understand what happens inside. Through statistically analyzing empirical information, we can create a model to optimize the output we want (growth) from the variables we have, without knowing causality (this is a reverse of forecasting, if you are familiar with regression procedures). Here, we can’t do that because we do not have reliable data. BUT, we can still create a mental model through qualitative data, taken with a grain of salt, and employ it to create a quasi-optimized model with fuzzy parameters.

I am not sure if this last part was confusing. Anyway, it is an epistemological issue and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Edit: I am not sure if you still have the moderator capacities, but it may be best to delete this thread. Nothing useful was presented from my side other than posing questions, realizing it was futile and then stopping.

I’m not upset with you LV, neither I was emotional, neither I can delete this thread. This is my advice for you LV, and believe me it is meant only for your good : read more and change attitude. Most of times, your posts seems to have no other goal than calling attention on you and put down people.

I can see why you do like so much Xenolith, though.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
Gentlemen,

First: I hope that we can approach this discussion with the right attitude…


A vain hope, I’m afraid. :(

Originally Posted by marinera
I’m not upset with you LV, neither I was emotional, neither I can delete this thread. This is my advice for you LV, and believe me it is meant only for your good : read more and change attitude. Most of times, your posts seems to have no other goal than calling attention on you and put down people.

I can see why you do like so much Xenolith, though.

I am sorry that I have appeared this way. Thank you for your posts and I apologize for taking your time.

Originally Posted by Dicko7X5
So guys, we still need to pull our dicks to grow right? Just kidding. ;)

We as a PE community have had some success at answering the “how” questions. But the “why” questions is more elusive and difficult to answer like sparkyx said.

How do we gain? We do A which usually results in B. Example: We stretch which usually results in length gains.
Why do we gain? A results in B because of C. Example: Stretching results in length gains because of C.

This is where our knowledge breaks down. What is C?

Also, other parts where our knowledge also breaks down are why we do not get B and why we sometimes get Z. This is where things get really complicated.

Which is the best way to do manual strechs?

Completly flaccid or 10% erect?

I’ always get 10% after warming up with ir-lamp.

Should I wait until I get flaccid?

Wasn’t Shiver a minimalist, concerning his PE routine? I need to search through his posts.


Struggling with a peyronies injury during sex and loss of size after having been into PE.

Originally Posted by Gyrta

Which is the best way to do manual strechs?

Completly flaccid or 10% erect?

I’ always get 10% after warming up with ir-lamp.

Should I wait until I get flaccid?

No, 10% but warmed should work fine.

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