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Knowing whether you are limited by Dorsal Thickening/Septum

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
Sorry for the misunderstanding, MM.

What I meant was that it is hard to notice when flaccid and not stretched and noticeable when flaccid and stretched. In the first case, I think I can feel the chord. In the second, it is extremely clear.

It sounds like you have a normal tunica to me. That’s exactly what mine feels like.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
I just tried this, but the chord is taut in all directions.

Same here.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
Upon further examination, I noticed that this “chord” is loser at the base of the penis. In other words, I can separate it more from the tunica at the base than the top. At the top, I can feel a hard section in the middle that SEEMS to continue from the bottom, but the bottom part of the chord is more grabbable.

The CCs are generally thicker near the base, so there’s more meat to grab generally. Toward the distal tip of penis (what you’re calling the “top”), the CCs fuse together and the septum nearly disappears. The DT fuses with the distal ligament, which holds the glans firmly to the tips of the CCs. This all sounds normal.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
Maybe the bottom is some ligament? And the top, which feels joined, is just a usually tough section at the meeting point of the two CC’s? Maybe this has caused an illusion of one unified chord.

Yes. If you read up a couple of pages, you’ll see I posted some information from a paper I downloaded (and paid for, so can’t post it here), which shows that the medial bundles of the suspensory ligament fuse with the tunica, and the ligament strands continue down the length of the shaft to form the DT. It’s possible that the DT is evident behind the ligament (proximally), but it’s certainly not as thick as it is distally from the ligament.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
The reason the ligament idea came into mind is that Bib, on his forums, talked about being able to palpate his ligament attachments on the base of his penis. If I am not mistaken, it was pretty far up too, maybe a few inches, where he could feel them and physically grab them. I thought he meant on the sides of the tunica…in my case this seems to be the case in the middle, where the base of the “chord” exists. Note: this was through the results of his growth from hanging, ie it was implied that this was a result of the growth from hanging, not a natural state.

The suspensory ligament is pretty much buried inside the body, just under the pubic bone. I think it’s hard to palpate directly, although I suppose it’s possible that years of hanging could change that. I think it’s more likely that Bib was talking about his fundiform ligament, which can be much further forward and actually encircles the penis and joins with the scrotum. The fundiform ligament has no connection to the tunica.

It’s also possible that you’re feeling the lateral bundles of the suspensory ligament. These originate at the pubic bone but split and connect to the left and right sides of the shaft. I suspect they may fuse with the “ventral thickenings,” although I’ve never seen this reported anywhere.


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Last edited by ModestoMan : 03-23-2010 at .

Very helpful post, MM. So, do you have the same chord issue that I have?

I found this on a penile anatomy site.

“The tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa is a bi-layered structure with multiplelayers. Inner layer bundles support and contain the cavernous tissue and are oriented circularly. Radiating from this layer are intracavernous pillars acting as struts, which augment the septum and provide essential support to the erectile tissue. Outer layer bundles are oriented longitudinally.

***These fibers extend from the glans penis to the proximal crura, where they insert into the inferior pubic ramus.***”

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retr…02253470165359X

It is extremely unlikely that a cord-like structure running the entire length of the penis from glans to pubis is anything other than described above. It almost certainly is not peyronie’s as a long cord would not be considered “disordered tissue”.

It seems that in some people (some) of the longitudinally oriented outer layer bundles may be aggregated into a palpable cord or cord-like structure(s). The description above matches what people describe.

Bottom line — it is almost certainly tunica tissue, and therefore stretchable, like the rest of the tunica.


Kdong Starting: 7.1 x 5.125 vol = 14.84 cu. in. Current: 7.1BPEL 5.5 MSEG = 17cu. in. GOAL --> 8.5 x 6.5 vol: 28.6 cu. in.

Took Time off, lost some gains-- Girth cemented

No PE since 2015 -- starting back up

I feel this cord too. And an almost insignificant upward curve.

But since I’ve just started PE couple months ago, I’ll stick to the newbie r. with minor variations, at least by 6 months.

Then, maybe I might consider fulcrums and other approaches.

Nice thread. I’m subscribing it!


No campaigns for now

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Take the guy who thinks his CCs are separated near the base and he has this tough tissue like “caulking” between them.

(Cringing) Hi, that was me.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
I seriously question whether his description is accurate. I’d want to see a picture, because what he’s describing is unlike any penile anatomy I’ve ever seen. (…) The simplest explanation is that he’s misunderstanding his own anatomy and simply reporting what most of us are talking about here—He has a tough dorsal thickening.

To clarify the caulking thing - previously in this thread, you’ve said “I’m really thinking of the tunica/DT/septum as the “skin” around the CCs.” Instead of “skin”, I was comparing the tunica/DT/septum to caulking, just because I found it easier to imagine it clumping unevenly that way (I think some guys were trying to imply that by referring to “scar tissue”).

I didn’t mean to imply that I could physically feel any caulking-like material between my CCs, nor that they felt separate.

Looking at this diagram,

Gray588.JPG

there seems to be a “Y-intersection” where the portion of the tunica/DT/septum that is *encircling* the CCs meets the portion of the tunica/DT/septum that is *separating* the CCs (I’ve coloured it green):

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/…ntersection.jpg

I was just thinking out loud based on the diagram: if you imagine someone applying caulking around the outside of the CCs, and then also inside the CCs, maybe in some people the caulking material runs together at that Y-intersection and forms a thicker-than-usual “cord” where the two layers meet.

*******************

Anyway - that was what I meant then, but maybe it’s inaccurate/irrelevant (the cord does feel more like a raised structure than a Y-shape, I now agree it’s probably the tough area surrounding the dorsal vein as you’ve suggested) - so to stick to sensory observation, here’s a drawing of what the cord feels like to me:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/…wing467x600.jpg

It looks very much like it could be any or all of the undifferentiated entire clump of the dorsal vein related structures: I can’t be sure if I’m being influenced by other diagrams or not.

****************

About possibly different meanings of “cord”: Modesto, you seemed to be describing what I mean by “cord” when you said:

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
“If I grasp my glans and pull my flaccid penis to full extension, the only structure that becomes tight and hard is the dorsal surface. If I could get under it, I could pluck it like a guitar string. The bottom (ventral) surface stays soft and pliable. This happens essentially at all tugging angles.”

But this sounded ambiguous to me:

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
The “cord” I feel is not over the septum; it’s to the sides of the septum. There is no bulge visible from the outside.
“Cord” may be a little misleading, in that it implies a cylindrical structure. My DT is more like a band of tissue (or rather a pair of bands, though it’s difficult to see them as separate). It has a length (essentially the length of my penis), a width of about 0.4 or 0.5” (combined), and a thickness of who-knows-what—I’d guesstimate 0.1 or 0.15”.

My “cord” is very much a “cord”: the closest it might come to “band” is “slightly smushed roll of cookie dough” shape.


Last edited by Foryourprivacy : 04-23-2010 at .

I too have this so called “cord” and I think it’s my limiting factor.  It feels like plucking a guitar string at the top side of my penis.  It’s distinctly at the top side of my penis since when I feel the underside there’s only soft tissue.  I’ve been PE’ing for 6 months now with no gains and when I stretch out my penis I can feel this cord keeping it from getting longer.  Also my BPFSL has remained the same and doesn’t seem to elongate even temporarily after sessions.  I always thought this cord was just the two halves of corpus cavernosa and not some separate structure.  My theory is that people who don’t feel this cord and can gain easily their CC is more uniform thus it doesn’t feel thicker at the top than the bottom.  Furthermore fulcrum hanging downwards wouldn’t help much either since this dorsal thickening is at the top while fulcrum hanging puts most stress at the bottom of the penis.  Just some thoughts.

I think it has been called the septum. But it seems like it can feel like a very tight cord when I flaccid stretch. I too have a slight upward curve and have had troubles gaining via hanging or assisted stretching. The rest of my penis does not seem to be nearly as tight when under tension.

What kinds of ways have been tried to soften this up other than stretching after a good warm up? I even use the heating pad on the member while stretching.

Originally Posted by JrJohnson
What kinds of ways have been tried to soften this up other than stretching after a good warm up? I even use the heating pad on the member while stretching.

Primarily using a fulcrum to focus the stretch on the dorsal side. The RSDT fulcrum for hanging is a good example of this, while using a fulcrum while during OTS hanging supposedly leads to lengthening of the other side.

Theoretically, if these hanging methods work, then one should be able to control and shape upwards/downwards curves.

Originally Posted by wannabe7in
I too have this so called “cord” and I think it’s my limiting factor.  It feels like plucking a guitar string at the top side of my penis.  It’s distinctly at the top side of my penis since when I feel the underside there’s only soft tissue.  I’ve been PE’ing for 6 months now with no gains and when I stretch out my penis I can feel this cord keeping it from getting longer.  Also my BPFSL has remained the same and doesn’t seem to elongate even temporarily after sessions.  I always thought this cord was just the two halves of corpus cavernosa and not some separate structure.  My theory is that people who don’t feel this cord and can gain easily their CC is more uniform thus it doesn’t feel thicker at the top than the bottom.  Furthermore fulcrum hanging downwards wouldn’t help much either since this dorsal thickening is at the top while fulcrum hanging puts most stress at the bottom of the penis.  Just some thoughts.

We do fulcrums to put stress at a concentrated region on the penis. You see around the fulcrum the stress will be increased, and the radius around the fulcrum will tend to make the tissues want to spread.

I believe fulcrums are a good way to target septum gains. We should also find a way to do fulcrums to the side, the reason most won’t do upward fulcrum is because of the nerves on the topside.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
Veins, arteries, and nerves do not provide much resistance to tension. The DT of the tunica does. Why deny the existence of this structure, which is clearly documented in the literature?

Buck’s fascia is “firmly attached” to the tunica. It is much thinner than the tunica and does not provide nearly the same resistance to tension.


I have come to this party very late (after all the fun seems to be over). I know a touch about penis anatomy, having had the chance to dissect one during med school during gross anatomy. Arteries, veins and nerves do give some resistance to stretch, but I agree that it is not as much as other structures in the penis.

This so called “Dorsal Thickening” that has been discussed here and in other threads is in fact a thickened part of Buck’s fascia which acts to protect dorsal vessels and nerves of the penis. You would not be able to feel the penile septum between the cavernosa - it represents a fusion of the tunica between the 2 cavernosa - it’s not that thick.

In Schwartz’s Principles of Surgery, Chapter 40. Urology, by Jeffrey La Rochelle, Brian Shuch, and Arie Belldegrun:

Quote
Surrounding all three bodies of the penis [CC and CS] are the outer dartos fascia and the inner Buck’s fascia. The dorsal nerves of the penis, which provide sensation to the penile skin, derive from the pudendal nerves and, along with the dorsal penile arteries, travel along the dorsum of the penis within Buck’s fascia.

In Smith’s General Urology, Chapter 1. Anatomy of the Genitourinary Tract, Emil A. Tanagho:

Quote
Each corpus is enclosed in a fascial sheath (tunica albuginea), and all are surrounded by a thick fibrous envelope known as Buck’s fascia.


Buck’s fascia invests the entire CC/CS and is not thicker than the tunica, but on the dorsal groove between the cavernosa it becomes quite thick and firm.

The vessels and nerves are in a vulnerable area on the dorsal part of the penis, in a slight cleft between the two cavernosa. The vessels and nerves must be protected when the penis is in its functional state (hard and ready to plunge). The Buck’s fascia is markedly thickened around these vessels. As the penis approaches its full erect length, the longitudinal fibers of the Buck’s fascia become taut and protect the vessels and nerves in 2 ways. 1). It invests the vessels and nerves and by surrounding them with rigid fibers that buffer them from the stresses of intercourse. 2) The restriction to further stretch by Buck’s fascia protects the nerves and blood vessels from being tugged to dangerous lengths which could damage them. (Remember “Veins, arteries, and nerves do not provide much resistance to tension.”).

It has been said multiple times in this thread (and elsewhere) that the tunica cannot be considered to be a uniform structure. This is true for the penis as a whole. The rate limiting step to enhancement (length and girth) will be that tissue(s) with the greatest resistance to stretch and lengthening (both longitudinal and circumferential). This may vary from guy to guy, but we all know the most resistant ones are the tunica and the dorsal thickening which is more correctly termed Buck’s fascia. We all know that when you place great stress on these most resistant structures, other less resistant ones (vessels, nerves and ligaments) may be at risk of injury, so care must be taken when doing high tension/stress PE (which is not a new admonishment to anyone who reads this forum).

Originally Posted by pudendum
….. I know a touch about penis anatomy, having had the chance to dissect one during med school during gross anatomy. ….


Nice. I would be interested in you opinion then: do you think the shape of penis is basically determined by the CC or the tunica? The way I figure the penis is, roughly, a balloon (like those for parties) inside a tougher tube - kinda in inner bicycle tube (tire?), to carry the analogy on.

If this analogy stands, then whatever the shape of the balloon, when you inflate it the shape of the whole structure (balloon + tire) will be determined by the shape of the tire: if this is curved, the structure will be curved. So, what really determine the shape of the penis would be the tunica.

What’s your thought here?

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by marinera
Nice. I would be interested in you opinion then: do you think the shape of penis is basically determined by the CC or the tunica? The way I figure the penis is, roughly, a balloon (like those for parties) inside a tougher tube - kinda in inner bicycle tube (tire?), to carry the analogy on.

If this analogy stands, then whatever the shape of the balloon, when you inflate it the shape of the whole structure (balloon + tire) will be determined by the shape of the tire: if this is curved, the structure will be curved. So, what really determine the shape of the penis would be the tunica.

What’s your thought here?

Thanks in advance.


Great question. The blood in the CC makes the penis erect, however it is the distended and stretched confines of the tunica that give the penis it’s shape — the analogy of the air in the tire is great. (There are different shapes and sizes of tires — it is the structure of the tire, not the air in it that gives it its shape). In all reality, the CC is a warehouse for blood that is loaded and emptied, but it has its limits — the outside walls — the tunica. (Yeah the walls are complex, but the CC itself is a space, not a determinate of shape).

This is at peak erection. If the penis is not at full erection, the shape will be variable, depending on the amount of blood, but I don’t think this is what you’re asking. This is like a tire that is inadequately filled (partially flat).

The CS has a less rigid tunica and like a thinner tire (or balloon) more blood will distort it to a greater extent. but like the balloon, the CS is limited by the constraints of the the tunica.

IMO to remodel the shape of the penis (beyond the suspensory ligament changes to increase the “exposed” penis) you must change the shape/structure of the tunica. From personal experience (along with many other PE’ers), particularly with jelqing, I have experienced marked girth increases particularly towards the head. I know this is due to the progressive pressure increases in the jelq stroke with peak tension/pressures being experienced towards the distal penis (towards the head) and much lower tension/pressure in the base (proximal penis) at the beginning of the stroke. This led to greater remodeling toward the head and the baseball bat shape. I experienced a change in the shape of the “tire” that the blood fills, not the blood itself.

That’s my opinion.


Last edited by pudendum : 04-30-2010 at .

Thanks again, Pudendum.

So, as for the point of this thread, it is my understanding that if really the dorsal thickening is ‘the limiting factor’, then an upward curve should develop or become more prominent, because the ventral side is growing faster than the dorsal side.

The sole case it couldn’t happens, is when there is also another ‘limiting factor’ (a plaque or anyway another thicker section of TA) in the underside of the penis counter balancing the upward curve. So, if one started PE with a straight penis and has’nt developed an upward curve, then it’s unlikely that the dorsal thickening is such a great issue.

Hope I’m not missing something here.

Originally Posted by marinera
Thanks again, Pudendum.

So, as for the point of this thread, it is my understanding that if really the dorsal thickening is ‘the limiting factor’, then an upward curve should develop or become more prominent, because the ventral side is growing faster than the dorsal side.

The sole case it couldn’t happens, is when there is also another ‘limiting factor’ (a plaque or anyway another thicker section of TA) in the underside of the penis counter balancing the upward curve. So, if one started PE with a straight penis and has’nt developed an upward curve, then it’s unlikely that the dorsal thickening is such a great issue.

Hope I’m not missing something here.


My sentiments exactly. I too have an upward curve and a prominent “dorsal thickening” which continues to be my limiting factor.

And not a factor in guys without a upward curve until or if it becomes one if they reach the limits of Buck’s fascia after achieving tremendous longitudinal enhancement of their tunica. Wouldn’t we all wish. :)

Pundendum thankyou for providing this information, it’s great to finally have a name (Buck’s fascia) that I think most people here will be happy to agree on for this ‘cord’ we’ve been quibbling over for some time.

Do you believe the Buck’s fascia can be elongated with heat and fulcrums? And if so, is there a limited amount that elongation will be possible before it becomes dangerous to the nerve bundles it protects?

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