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IPR the sky is the limit?

I still think we need to focus on the scar tissue issue and how to prevent it’s growth and work on methods to break it down. I just asked my doctor if scar tissue breaks down and he said no. He mentioned that the only way to avoid scar to development is to avoid swelling and thus proliferation. Maybe cold packs after work outs would help.

Modesto, Iguana: Great posts!! I love the science talk :)

Iguana, BTW, welcome to Thunder’s. I love to see new guys chime in with new information.

Originally Posted by Iquana
You’ve just added another 500 questions for me!

You and me both!

Originally Posted by Iquana
Regarding scarring as a consequence of PE vs muscle building. It is my understanding that muscles rebuild very differently than soft tissue. I may be wrong, but most articles that I have read seem to indicated muscle is regenerated to some extent, not repaired. That there is actually new muscle cells formed and that the fiber bundles of muscles themselves enlarge. This would contrast with the soft tissue repair process in which the wound is actually filled in with ECM (extracellular matrix) material which consist of collagen and newly formed blood vessels. It seems that certain body parts (I.e. Bones, and the liver) have the ability to regenerate new cells but other organs or structures do not and the result is replacement by connective tissue (scarring.) As you said bone distraction produces new bone not scar tissue.

I like this line of thinking… Iguana, are you aware that the penis consists of 50 percent smooth muscle? I wrote an article/thread on smooth muscle a few months ago; it might help you with your research: The Penis (smooth) Muscle Theory. I could be wrong, but from what I have researched, smooth muscle regenerates too.

So, let’s assume — for a moment — that we are regenerating the ever-so-needed smooth muscle cells in our penis, then what?

Modesto, I believe we discussed that we’re probably not just exercising one part of our penis, rather many different parts — and maybe even each part is being exercised/enlarged at different rates. Particularly, the smooth muscle could enlarge at one rate, while the tunica could enlarge at another. So after we regenerate more smooth muscle cells, perhaps we would have to enlarge/stretch the tunica as well.

My next question (amongst my thousands of questions related to PE) is how does the tunica react to stress? Does it regenerate like muscle? Or does it form scar tissue? Iguana, do you know how tendons react?

Originally Posted by Iquana
PS. How do you create links to other posts? I’ve search the help file unsuccessfully. Thanks!

Step 1 - Click on the post number above the post… It is underlined.

Step 2 - Copy and paste the link in the url

Step 3 - It will automatically give the title of the post.


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by Johnny Inches
I also gained a whopping 0”

1. The same
2. 2-4
3. Not a newb 1 month decon

My routine is in the routine section.

Interesting… With your routine did you ADS every day for 4 hours a day? Even on rest days?


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by Dino9X7
My feeling on all this is that in order to keep gaining you need to take a break once in a while. I don’t really think the routine matters all that much within reason as long as you are consistent with it. My feeling would be you should gain than cement gain than when gains stop take off 1-2 months and start again. It seems a pretty simple principal.

Indeed, Dino.. Decon breaks are definitely needed. But I think the main focus is: can we gain more with doing less work? That is, a typical IPR routine = 2 off, 1 on; opposed to the original 2 on, 1 off approach. Also, does one routine condition us better than another?

But hey, what do I know. There’s a reason I’m asking you the questions (cough: your the one sporting a 9 inch penis), and not the other way around! :)


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by kayaker
I still think we need to focus on the scar tissue issue and how to prevent it’s growth and work on methods to break it down. I just asked my doctor if scar tissue breaks down and he said no. He mentioned that the only way to avoid scar to development is to avoid swelling and thus proliferation. Maybe cold packs after work outs would help.

Cold packs are definitely interesting, but I’m curious about the scar tissue talk… I’ve never really taken it into consideration when theorizing about PE.

Where do you think the scar tissue is forming? In the tunica? The collagen?

Gotta run. But this is a great thread with interesting discussions!


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

I just finished talking to a friend of mine who is a Doctor and a biological professor. She knows about PE, so I decided to talk to her about scar tissue and the penis.

As I suspected, she agreed with me, and said that she highly doubts we are forming scar tissue within the penis. Scar tissue, she says, would:

  • cause the penis to be lumpy and hard, like an injury or a scar (think of a scar that forms after you cut yourself).
  • cause the penis to be assymetrical (that is, not round and cylinder-shaped like the penis is suppose to be).
  • cause a decrease in hardness, as scar tissue forming around the veins would, in all probabilty, constrict them.
  • And to her understanding, she thinks scar tissue would actually cause atrophy of the penis’s collagen, and probably a reduction in size (obviously we aren’t doing that).

Keep in mind that she is by no means a scar tissue expert, but this is her qualified opinion on the subect.

TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by remek

Interesting.. With your routine did you ADS every day for 4 hours a day? Even on rest days?

Yes. Also I hung at 5kg starting at 40mins and jelqed 100 strokes both increasing x1.1.

There seem to be a lot of competing theories around P.E, some seem to overlap and others seem completely different, is there anybody here, who is acquainted with them all able to start a thread outlining the main schools of thought and comparing and contrasting them for those of us who are less well versed in the arts of P.E?


For our demands most moderate are,

We only want the earth.

James Connolly

Remek

Thanks for the warm welcome and help! This site is truly fantastic. The quality of guys here is amazing. I really appreciate such an awesome resource.
Wow, you have some really great posts. I was reading back through some of your earlier stuff. Truly a pioneer and a thinker!!

First, thanks for the posting instructions, but what I meant to ask was how to post a quote from someone else. I think it’s a VB or HTML tag but I can’t find anything on the syntax. So keeping that in mind I will try to cut a paste parts for now.

Quote by remek:

I like this line of thinking.. Iguana, are you aware that the penis consists of 50 percent smooth muscle? I wrote an article/thread on smooth muscle a few months ago; it might help you with your research: The Penis (smooth) Muscle Theory. I could be wrong, but from what I have researched, smooth muscle regenerates too.

Response:

No, I was not aware of this until I had read the Smooth Muscle Theory thread (several times.) Great information! I have to agree with you on the regeneration. I read an article on the regeneration of smooth muscles in pigs (ureter) which has an interesting point. It seems that in this particular case, the regenerated muscle tissues were interwoven with collagen fibers. It states “The regenerated smooth-muscle bundles were oriented in different directions and intermingled with fibrous tissue.” May have significance?

Here’s the link, let me know your thoughts please.

Http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16430689

Quote by remek:
So, let’s assume — for a moment — that we are regenerating the ever-so-needed smooth muscle cells in our penis, then what?

Response:

The statement of your doctor friend makes a lot of sense in that it doesn’t appear we are gaining from or only from scar tissue. This above article also states “By 3 months, smooth-muscle bundles bridged the defect, and by 5 months, the whole defect was covered. Smooth muscle cells were evident by electron microscopy by 3months, and actin and myosin could be detected by immunohistochemistry. Desmin-positive cells accounted for 50% of the population at 3 months and 40% at 5 months.” So it appears that, of the added repair tissue, smooth muscle accounted from 50% at 3 months to 40% at 5 months. If this is typical in the smooth muscle repair process could it be we are adding 40-50% new muscle tissue and 50-60% connective tissue? Thoughts??

Quote by remek:

Modesto, I believe we discussed that we’re probably not just exercising one part of our penis, rather many different parts — and maybe even each part is being exercised/enlarged at different rates. Particularly, the smooth muscle could enlarge at one rate, while the tunica could enlarge at another. So after we regenerate more smooth muscle cells, perhaps we would have to enlarge/stretch the tunica as well.

My next question (amongst my thousands of questions related to PE) is how does the tunica react to stress? Does it regenerate like muscle? Or does it form scar tissue? Iguana, do you know how tendons react?

Response:

I have to agree whole heartedly. It seems many parts are affected. From what I know, the tunica is make up of tough collage fibers, which I think does not regenerate. So the process here may be damage by microscopic tears and healing in the true sense of IPR. BUT, if my understanding is correct, Modesto and I discussed the strength of scar tissue and the evidence, we believe, came to the conclusion that it is weaker that normal tissue. Given this assumption, would it not mean that over time the tunica would weaken with each addition of new scar tissue? Could it be that it is the muscle tissue (maybe also tendons and ligaments) strengthens and that this is the culprit responsible for diminishing returns?

Without turning this into another Smooth Muscle Theory thread, I think it’s safe to say that the IPR and Smooth Muscle Theories go hand in hand. In fact both types of tissue (muscle and connective) are subject to IPR healing. In addition, smooth muscle is found in almost all organs and is abundant in the vascular system. Isn’t the CC and CS basically enlarged vascular cavities? So, I think it’s safe to say that these are both valid complementary theories.

Now, my questions: : )

1.) How can we determine the substance of the new tissue (muscle vs connective tissue?) Why is this important? Because, if gains come from one tissue source or the other, even yet, a combination of both, then this could have a impact on how we exercise.

2.) How do you make smooth muscle grow? If indeed this is the source of our gains the answer could be monumental to PE. Obliviously you would have to stress or damage it. Does it respond to stress the same way skeletal muscle does? Does it get stronger when stressed? Is it possible to stress it and promote cell regeneration vs damage it by overworking and promote scar tissue? Are there any supplements that would aid in it’s growth?

3.) Is scar tissue tougher than smooth muscle tissue? We seem to have evidence that it is weaker than normal surrounding tissue but does that include smooth muscle?

4.) Suppose we build this large wooden badger.? : )

I hope this makes some sense (with the exception of question 4) and doesn’t just muddy the water. I’m going to keep digging and reading.

Remek, Keep up the great work! Modesto, still waiting for your two cents.. You guys are an inspiration to me!

Regards,

Iguana


Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.

Louis Pasteur

Thanks Thunder!


Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.

Louis Pasteur

Originally Posted by Johnny Inches
Yes. Also I hung at 5kg starting at 40mins and jelqed 100 strokes both increasing x1.1.

Johhny, I realize all we’re doing at this point is speculating about IPR… But if I had to give you an estimated reason why you didn’t gain, I would say it’s because you didn’t rest. The key to “IPR” is rest. 1 day on, 2 days off; or 1 day on, 1 day semi-PE/semi-rest, 1 day complete rest. It appears you didn’t give your penis any rest.


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

Originally Posted by Iquana
Remek

Thanks for the warm welcome and help! This site is truly fantastic. The quality of guys here is amazing. I really appreciate such an awesome resource.
Wow, you have some really great posts. I was reading back through some of your earlier stuff. Truly a pioneer and a thinker!!

Just don’t go back too far ;)

Also, to quote someone, you can type the words “quote” and “/quote” in brackets [ ] (before and after a quote), if you’d like. If you hit the button, like T said, it pretty much does it for you. But if you need to separate the quotes (like I’m doing in this post), you’ll have to manually insert each quote & /quote.

Originally Posted by Iquana
No, I was not aware of this until I had read the Smooth Muscle Theory thread (several times.) Great information! I have to agree with you on the regeneration. I read an article on the regeneration of smooth muscles in pigs (ureter) which has an interesting point. It seems that in this particular case, the regenerated muscle tissues were interwoven with collagen fibers. It states “The regenerated smooth-muscle bundles were oriented in different directions and intermingled with fibrous tissue.” May have significance?

Here’s the link, let me know your thoughts please.

Http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16430689

Interesting find, Iguana. It seems to be along the same lines of the book I’m reading on the smooth muscle (albeit slowly reading). I really don’t know what to make out the particular quote … I’m assuming — completely theoretical — that the article is saying the new generated SM bundles were also accompanied by newly generated fibrous tissue ( i.e. collagen/connective tissue); which would make sense. I don’t think we can only create more SM and tunica, the rest of the penis has to grow with it. Modesto was the first person to point this out to me (way back when).

I guess the real question is: does the SM form as a result of the collagen forming, or does the collagen form as a result of the SM forming. I believe your article suggests that it’s the later.

Originally Posted by Iquana
The statement of your doctor friend makes a lot of sense in that it doesn’t appear we are gaining from or only from scar tissue. This above article also states “By 3 months, smooth-muscle bundles bridged the defect, and by 5 months, the whole defect was covered. Smooth muscle cells were evident by electron microscopy by 3months, and actin and myosin could be detected by immunohistochemistry. Desmin-positive cells accounted for 50% of the population at 3 months and 40% at 5 months.” So it appears that, of the added repair tissue, smooth muscle accounted from 50% at 3 months to 40% at 5 months. If this is typical in the smooth muscle repair process could it be we are adding 40-50% new muscle tissue and 50-60% connective tissue? Thoughts??

Very interesting! That’s approximately the SM/collagen ratio the penis. It’s about 50/50 in a healthy penis. So did this article state that the connective tissue was created as a result of the regeneration of the SM tissue?

Originally Posted by Iquana
I have to agree whole heartedly. It seems many parts are affected. From what I know, the tunica is make up of tough collage fibers, which I think does not regenerate. So the process here may be damage by microscopic tears and healing in the true sense of IPR. BUT, if my understanding is correct, Modesto and I discussed the strength of scar tissue and the evidence, we believe, came to the conclusion that it is weaker that normal tissue. Given this assumption, would it not mean that over time the tunica would weaken with each addition of new scar tissue? Could it be that it is the muscle tissue (maybe also tendons and ligaments) strengthens and that this is the culprit responsible for diminishing returns?

Yes, interesting enough, I talked to the doc about this too. I was actually asking for her opinion on stretching the tunica — the tendon-like tissue that is just a continuation of the BC/IC muscles at the base of the penis…

She was rather fond of the idea that we have to enlarge both the tunica and the smooth muscle. She went on to tell me that she once worked in physical therapy with kids that had head injuries. She said “the malfunctioned neurons of the kids caused their muscles to contract for long periods of time.” As a result, their tendons shrank, and the kid’s arms were bunched up. It was a really sad story…

But as fortune has it, this is were she came into play: it was her job to help fix the problem. They had to stretch the tendons, so the kids could have the full use their arms again. She says they used slow, gentle stretches everyday, and as a result the tendons would elongate. “The key was persistence,” she said. (I thought this sounded pretty familiar).

So, at this point my main question was does the tendons (or tunica) tear, get thinner, or what exactly when stretched? She said she didn’t know, but she doesn’t think tendons tear or become thinner. She thinks tendons, and probably the tunica, just elongate (regeneration, I presume)… But she gave me the number to an orthopedist sports medicine doctor whom she thinks will have the answer. I didn’t call him today, but I’ll email him over the weekend.

I can’t see how the tunica would become thinner or tear. My assumption is:
If the tunica tears — there’s going to be scar tissue or injury, and I’ve pointed out above why I don’t think this happens.
If the tunica becomes thinner and weakerIMO, this would probably make gains easier over time, and maybe even the penis less erect.

Originally Posted by Iguana
Without turning this into another Smooth Muscle Theory thread, I think it’s safe to say that the IPR and Smooth Muscle Theories go hand in hand. In fact both types of tissue (muscle and connective) are subject to IPR healing. In addition, smooth muscle is found in almost all organs and is abundant in the vascular system. Isn’t the CC and CS basically enlarged vascular cavities? So, I think it’s safe to say that these are both valid complementary theories.

I’m starting to agree myself.

Originally Posted by Iguana
Now, my questions: : )

I’ll try to answer them, but keep in mind that these are more my opinion and less 100% fact.

Originally Posted by Iquana
1.) How can we determine the substance of the new tissue (muscle vs connective tissue?) Why is this important? Because, if gains come from one tissue source or the other, even yet, a combination of both, then this could have a impact on how we exercise.

This is a great question! But, I suppose there isn’t a good answer. To my knowledge we can either
a) Perform an incision on the penis and take sample tests (I’m not sure any of the guys here would go for that)
or b) Use something along the lines of an ultrasound (i.e medical equipment)

b) might be possible for an experiment, but it would need to be funded by someone or something, so I think will have to wait for PE to go mainstream first.

Originally Posted by Iguana
2.) How do you make smooth muscle grow? If indeed this is the source of our gains the answer could be monumental to PE. Obliviously you would have to stress or damage it. Does it respond to stress the same way skeletal muscle does? Does it get stronger when stressed? Is it possible to stress it and promote cell regeneration vs damage it by overworking and promote scar tissue? Are there any supplements that would aid in it’s growth?

Another good question. I’ve thought about this myself from time to time. My guess is that we are actually making it grow when we jelq/stretch/clamp/PE. I’m pretty sure that it does respond to the stress the same way skeletal muscle does. The book I’m reading, Hypertrophic Response in Smooth Muscle, hasn’t directly said that smooth muscle reacts to exercise the same way skeletal muscle does, but I think that’s because they aren’t thinking about PE; rather they are thinking about the other organs with SM (IOW, you wouldn’t want to exercise your uterus).

Originally Posted by Iguana
3.) Is scar tissue tougher than smooth muscle tissue? We seem to have evidence that it is weaker than normal surrounding tissue but does that include smooth muscle?

Shiver would probably be good for this question. I presume we would have to look at the tensile strengths. I’ll look through the SM book later this weekend and hopefully I can find a general SM tensile strength. Nevertheless, I would guess that different kinds of SM tissue would have different tensile strengths. I believe the same would go for different types of scar tissue.

Originally Posted by Iguana
4.) Suppose we build this large wooden badger.? : )

:confused:

Originally Posted by I
I hope this makes some sense (with the exception of question 4) and doesn’t just muddy the water. I’m going to keep digging and reading.
Remek, Keep up the great work! Modesto, still waiting for your two cents.. You guys are an inspiration to me!
Regards,

Iguana

You do that Iguana! And I don’t think you’re muddying the water at all. I really think were onto something here. I’m hoping soon, after all these years, we can have some real answers!!

Best regards,
remek


TGC Theory | Who Says The Penis Isn't a Muscle?

"To leave the world a better place, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived is to succeed." - Emerson

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