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IPR the sky is the limit?

doghound, having read all your posts your IPR cycle sounds really good; intense ‘on’ days I notice. Might give something similar a try :up:

IPR will definitely be my next routine. I have read most everything (PE related) on this site and I have to say it is really the only thing that has attempted to explain why we gain. I am in the first of two decon months and will start in Jan 07. For now I’m just reading and studying to try and understand the protocol better. I will keep you posted of any gains.


Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.

Louis Pasteur

I have not given up on the IPR concept. I have a modified routine detailed in my progress log. It was not ever based on your newbie routine Babbis…so my data may not be relevant to you specifically.


"Debate the idea..."

I think that IPR (inflammation, proliferation, and remodeling) is certainly an important process (perhaps the only process) involved in gains. But the way that the IPR protocol has connected workouts and their timing to the actual IPR processes in the body has always been a mystery to me.


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Originally Posted by ModestoMan
I think that IPR (inflammation, proliferation, and remodeling) is certainly an important process (perhaps the only process) involved in gains. But the way that the IPR protocol has connected workouts and their timing to the actual IPR processes in the body has always been a mystery to me.

ModestoMan,

So what practical applications do see as useful stemming from IPR theory then? ADS crucial? And decon.?

I’m sort of convinced of this, but yes I’d agree the timing is individual-specific.

Originally Posted by ModestoMan
I think that IPR (inflammation, proliferation, and remodeling) is certainly an important process (perhaps the only process) involved in gains. But the way that the IPR protocol has connected workouts and their timing to the actual IPR processes in the body has always been a mystery to me.

Modesto,

Not to attempt to start a controversy, but are you saying that while the concept of IPR is sound in recovery (as a process even unrelated to the penis and PE) you are not sure that IPR protocol for PE is a sure and sound path to gains?

I hate to pester (I’m just trying to educate myself and be aware of as much of the thoughts on PE as possible) , but if so, why do you think it’s off?

Originally Posted by Klayton

So what practical applications do see as useful stemming from IPR theory then? ADS crucial? And decon.?

I’m not sure, Klayton. IPR healing proceeds along a certain timetable, to be sure, but it’s never been clear to me why one would have to wait for one IPR healing cycle to run to completion before starting a new one. Xenolith suggested it had to do with different types of collagen, but I never understood that explanation.

Most people who perform PE on a regular schedule are regularly causing inflammation, which leads to proliferation (a good thing) and eventually to remodeling. While constant inflammation can lead to problems (e.g., fibrosis, suggesting that regular breaks allowing complete healing is probably a good thing), I see no reason why different IPR healing cycles cannot overlap in time.

The use of an ADS seems sensible to me, because I think it may help to assemble new collagen along the desired axis of growth. Also, I think that tissues tend to remodel in a way that reduces stress. Using an ADS can thus promote growth by remodeling alone.

All that said, I guess IPR healing teaches me that regular breaks are probably a good thing (to prevent fibrosis and consequent toughening of the tissues). The use of an ADS is possibly a good thing (to promote remodeling along the desired axis of growth). Intense PE is probably a good thing (to get the IPR process started).

What I’m not sure about is how long breaks should be, how intense the workouts should be, and how long people should exercise before taking a break.

What I need to understand better is the negative feedback process. What is it in the IPR healing cycle that causes gains to slow? Maybe I’ll re-read some of Xeno’s posts.


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Originally Posted by Klayton
doghound, having read all your posts your IPR cycle sounds really good; intense ‘on’ days I notice. Might give something similar a try :up:

I definitely think so too. As far as I can tell, it’s not about how deconditioned you are or how intensely you work in isolation; it’s a question of how much marginal stress you place on your unit. In other words, the intensity needs to be there, but there also needs to be a deconditioned dick. Imagine a theoretical quantity that is equal to the difference between how much workload you put on your dick and how ‘soft’ your dick is. That quantity needs to be at its maximimum (without going into overtraining, of couse) over a fairly short time period, about 6 weeks. This also goes on a micro scale: during my 14 day I phase, on my workout days I put a big workload on my dick, and then on days 2 and 3 I didn’t touch my dick at all.

I definitely put a lot of stresses on my unit, I did it methodically and saw it through to the end even when my dick started to get sore from all the repetitive ADS hanging over the weeks. I think I pretty much pushed it to the limit without going into overtraining. You can check out my log at “Xeno’s method - my first gains campaign”.

Originally Posted by Tivase

Modesto,

Not to attempt to start a controversy, but are you saying that while the concept of IPR is sound in recovery (as a process even unrelated to the penis and PE) you are not sure that IPR protocol for PE is a sure and sound path to gains?

Well, my first attempt at IPR training didn’t work. I actually lost size by failing to cement my earlier gains. As for whether the IPR training protocol is sound, I am skeptically optimistic. I think there is a good basis for trying to structure a training regime around the IPR healing process. What’s unclear to me is whether the protocol we have is the right one.


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Originally Posted by ModestoMan


What I need to understand better is the negative feedback process. What is it in the IPR healing cycle that causes gains to slow? Maybe I’ll re-read some of Xeno’s posts.

I think there’s a certain amount of “fly-by-wire” involved here. I was probably lucky in that my dick probably responds to stresses in a similar way to Xeno’s, so for the given time periods, and for the workloads I used, I got good results. For you guys, maybe you need to up the intensity, or down it, or keep the intensity level and prolong each period by a few days. In my experience, the only things that matter are: 1) is my dick growing each time I have a workout, even if it’s just a millimeter or two? and 2) even though my unit may be sore and bruised after the workout and for 24 hours afterwards, by the time the next workout rolls around two days later, is my erection quality excellent again?

If you answer no to question 1), then I suggest applying more workload. You can this either by prolonging time or upping intensity. What I did was I multiplied the amount of weight I was hanging ADS by the time I hung for to get an amount of “pound-hours”. So if you hang ADS 1 pound for 8 hours, and you hang ADS 1.25 pounds for 6 hours, which provides a greater overall workload? 1 x 8 = 8 pound-hours. 1.25 x 6 = 7.5 pound-hours. So actually the first option would put a better cumulative stress on your dick, but it probably wouldn’t hurt your dick as much because it’s a lower weight (easier for your ligs and tissues to support).

If you answered no to question 2), then add another day between workouts. Or add as many days as you need to get your unit in fighting shape for the next workout.

I think these two things could be the reason why I got good results and maybe why so many other guys aren’t getting anything - perhaps they’re not asking themselves question 1 and 2 above.

Modesto, after reading Xeno’s posts and related material several times, I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. I think the case here is not that IPR isn’t involved in gains or the protocol doesn’t work, it’s our lack of a complete understanding. The processes involved are very complex and hard to predict and test given the huge number of variables. For instance, if the research concerning multiple tunica layers has a valid basis, then the stress involved to create inflammation may greatly vary in certain individuals. Another factor, some people heal faster than others. Also, what if there really is some type of smooth muscle response? That would be yet another factor. Also, if you visit the IPR link that Xeno posted on page 8 of Finding Xeno you will notice that the stages overlap (sometimes for weeks); so it may be that one individual may enter the Proliferation phase before another or require more time in the remodeling phase. So, the physiological make up of each individual would mean different applications of the protocol. This is what doghound is saying and I think Xeno touched on that a few times.

I think your question as to why different protocol phases cannot overlap is very valid. I have wondered the same thing myself. You would think once the body has ended the Proliferation phase and produced new tissue (Type III collagen) that while this collagen is being converted to Type I during the Remodeling phase that a new Inflammation cycle could begin. It goes to reason that the fine nature of Type III collagen is more susceptible to injury and would not require as much force as it would to “re-injure” the Type I collagen at the end of the Remodeling phase. The problem here-in may lie in re-injuring the healing tissue before it has had time to heal causing expensive injury leading to fibrosis. The reference work from Xeno’s link made the following statement: “The greater the volume of damaged tissue, the greater the extent of, and the greater the density of the resulting scar tissue.” This resulting greater density scar tissue would then would require much greater force to re-injure. So I think what Xeno was trying to say was that the key during the Inflammation stage is to inflict enough tissue damage to elicit a growth response while minimizing the production of scar tissue (his turtle and armadillo illustration.) The logical thing is to start off lightly and move up slowly. Once you have scar tissue, you will always have scar tissue. And more scar tissue means gains slow and become more difficult to achieve.

This are just a few of my thoughts on the matter, right or wrong. I will keep digging. I still have a thousand of unanswered questions myself. But I think Xeno, Shiver, MX, these guys ARE definitely on to something. There is a valid scientific reason why we gain. We can all sit around scratching our heads and wasting time with routines that don’t work or we can work to understand these processes better. There I’m not saying we all need to run out and buy microscopes and become cellular biologist. But, we should be able to at the very least figure out what works and what doesn’t. There are 65,000 brains on this site. Lets use them. Keep reading, researching, testing theories. Who knows? One of us may find the answer!!

(And he better share it!)

Regards,

Iguana


Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.

Louis Pasteur

Once you have scar tissue, you will always have scar tissue. And more scar tissue means gains slow and become more difficult to achieve.> Iguana

Yes, but is this not just expressed as ‘gains’? The tissue that was there beforehand is still there, but with the addititon of more, right? The old ‘natural’ tissue still being a viable source of new ‘scarring’, not at any slower rate than the begining stuff, unless it has been inadvertantly conditioned against scarring, i.e. the need for decon.?

Klayton, the very nature of injury means some tissue has been destroyed. The body has two responses to injury, one being regeneration (replacing the dead tissue with like living tissue), the other being repair (replacing the dead tissue with scar tissue.) Unfortunately, the latter process is at work in soft tissue healing. Granted we are not destroying all tissue and viable living non-scar tissue is still there. The point being, as more and more healthy tissue is destroyed and replaced by scar tissue, the penis becomes tougher and more resistant to injury thus requiring more and greater force to produce gains. The question becomes what is the minimal force I can use for maximum gains?


Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.

Louis Pasteur

Originally Posted by Iquana

The reference work from Xeno’s link made the following statement: “The greater the volume of damaged tissue, the greater the extent of, and the greater the density of the resulting scar tissue.” This resulting greater density scar tissue would then would require much greater force to re-injure. So I think what Xeno was trying to say was that the key during the Inflammation stage is to inflict enough tissue damage to elicit a growth response while minimizing the production of scar tissue (his turtle and armadillo illustration.) The logical thing is to start off lightly and move up slowly. Once you have scar tissue, you will always have scar tissue. And more scar tissue means gains slow and become more difficult to achieve.

Great post, Iguana. From what I’ve been able to find on the web, scar tissue is actually weaker than the tissue it replaces. See http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar…car_tissue.html

I recall an old post by Bib, in which he asserted that scar tissue was not impediment to his gains and that it actually made it easier for him to overcome limiting factors. Damned if I can find it now.

There have also been a number of posts about breaking up fibrosis. Shiver was an avid promoter of a supplement called Bromelain, which includes a proteolytic enzyme that he claimed reduced fibrosis throughout the body.

My take on the subject is that scarring may not be a natural consequence of PE activities any more than it’s a natural consequence of muscle building. I made that point in this post. I really recommend that you read the “TL-Extract” referred to in that post. It appears that not all inflammation causes fibrosis or scarring.

An analogue to keep in mind during discussions about connective tissue lengthening is bone lengthening. There have been some threads dealing with that subject here as well. Bone lengthening involves cutting a bone and allowing the healing to start. A bridge of collagen forms between the cut ends, which then gets stretched gradually over many weeks. The collagen continues to fill in the space between the bone ends until the desired length is reached. Then, stretching (distraction) is stopped, and the collagen bridge calcifies. Eventually, the bone remodels and becomes normal bone tissue, not scar tissue.


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Modesto, wow, great information! You’ve just added another 500 questions for me! Now I’m confused. It seems that there may be conflicting information on the toughness of scar tissue or maybe I’m just not understanding it correctly.

The site:http://www.amputee-coalition.org/in…agetherapy.html - makes the statement:

“Many amputees have scar tissue in the affected limb associated with surgery or the original injury. Scar tissue is tougher, less elastic and often thicker than normal skin and muscle. Due to it’s restrictive characteristics, scar tissue can have a negative effect on adjacent tissue, resulting in stiffness and/or pain.”

Not the first time I’ve heard this. But - on the other hand:

An article on healing at http://education.vetmed.vt.edu/curr…ab5/healing.htm, states:

Collagen remodeling will occur for some time afterward, up to several months,depending on how extensive the damage was. Regions of scarring become stronger over time, but they will never achieve the same strength as the original tissue. Tensile strength of 70 percent of normal is about the greatest one could expect.

Insight on this would be especially helpful. One would have to reason that if the resulting scar tissue was weaker than the original normal tissue, slowing gains would have to be attributed to another process at work. Could it be possible that the tissue surrounding the scar tissue increases in strength to somehow “compensate” for the weaker scar tissue? Otherwise, less force would be needed to damage this replacement tissue, meaning the workload for subsequent sessions would need to decrease or stay at the same level. In other words, the healed tissue will be either stronger or weaker. If in fact, it is stronger and we base our assumptions on scar tissue being weaker, what attributes to the new strength? I think we can safely say that the penis does adapt somehow to increasing stresses. Any thoughts on this?

Regarding scarring as a consequence of PE vs muscle building. It is my understanding that muscles rebuild very differently than soft tissue. I may be wrong, but most articles that I have read seem to indicated muscle is regenerated to some extent, not repaired. That there is actually new muscle cells formed and that the fiber bundles of muscles themselves enlarge. This would contrast with the soft tissue repair process in which the wound is actually filled in with ECM (extracellular matrix) material which consist of collagen and newly formed blood vessels. It seems that certain body parts (I.e. Bones, and the liver) have the ability to regenerate new cells but other organs or structures do not and the result is replacement by connective tissue (scarring.) As you said bone distraction produces new bone not scar tissue.

There does seem to be support that fibrosis is not a natural process but actually a malfunction in the body’s healing response. The site: http://www.fibrogen.com/uses/ipf.html, states the following;

Scarring is the body’s normal wound healing response in which specialized cells called fibroblasts deposit layers of collagen, a ubiquitous protein that helps form a scar. Sometimes the normal wound healing response goes awry, and the formation of scar tissue occurs faster than collagen is naturally broken down. The excessive production and deposition of collagen results in pathological scarring, a process called fibrosis

The question is what makes the process go “awry?” Over training doesn’t seem a likely candidate to me? Thoughts?

Modesto, thanks a bunch for the links and TL-Extract. I printed it out and will read it later. It seems the more I learn the less I know! Keep up the good work!! Thanks for your insightful response.

PS. How do you create links to other posts? I’ve search the help file unsuccessfully. Thanks!


Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal: my strength lies solely in my tenacity.

Louis Pasteur

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