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Hidden effect of PE....anemia?

Pedundum, I understand the anatomy and physiology, and I understand the penis holds a fairly small amount of blood (depending on size), which is why I qualified my question for “intense and long-term routines”. The penis may hold only 50mL (random estimate) of blood at a time, but say you are jelqing 3 times a day vigorously and you jelq out blood and bring in new blood a few times during each routine and you do this 6 days a week (100mLx3x6=1.8L/week) which is a pretty high percent of your blood volume. I’m not suggesting that all blood in your penis is destroyed, but what percent if any? If any damage did occur, it would certainly depend on many factors that may not apply to you, such as: RBC status in your body, RBC suceptibility to lysis (some people have weaker RBC’s due to specific enzyme deficiencies that I won’t do into), time PE’ing, type of exercies done, number of days a week, intensity of exercises, nutritional status, age, I could go on and on.

I must add that I am an avid PE’er and I do not have anemia or symptoms of anemia, nor am I claiming PE causes anemia. I do stand by the idea that it COULD damage red blood cells to some degree and the only way to know this for sure is by scientific experiment and not assumed understanding of physiology or lack of PE’ers displaying anemia or symptoms.

I contend that red blood cell damage with jelqing is no different than it is with a muscle building weight training program or any hard labor jobs. This is why I think so:

Red blood cells are totally different that any other cell in the body. It has a disk-like appearance with a concave center, like a cough lozenge (Cepacol) or Whither’s candy. It has no nucleus (the “brain” of the cell) and is filled almost with the important protein hemoglobin that carries the oxygen that our body needs. It’s a resilient cell designed to travel in single file through the smallest blood vessels (capillaries); it can bend and take very high shearing forces and maintain its integrity. They have a 30 day life span. Old and damaged cells are routinely taken out of circulation, broken down and the iron repackaged into new blood cells.

As we all know, the 2 places the blood can be found in the erect penis is in the arteries and veins of the skin (and tissues under the skin) and in the erectile chambers. You can disregard the blood in the skin veins because the amount is small and the elastic nature of their walls is likely to buffer them from large pressure changes. The cavernosa is basically made up of lakes of blood (sinusoids) with partial walls separating these spaces (trabeculae). In the the fully erect penis, pressures in the cavernous can reach 200 - 300 millimeters mercury (normal peak blood pressure is 120 millimeters mercury). This systems normal physiology was “designed” to take these pressures and the added pressure from insertion into the tightest vagina.

As in a hydraulic system like a barber’s chair or brake system, pressure throughout a closed system, for example the cavernosa, are reflected equally on all the surfaces (the walls and the blood cells). The red blood cells would be pressed uniformly on all of its surface. It would be like a balloon filled with water in a hyperbaric chamber. When pressure goes up, the fluid is compressed to a small degree, but maintains its shape and integrity. The red blood cell would be the same.

Jelqing a semi erect penis would push blood forward in the cavernosa with increasing pressure, probably causing an instantaneous pressure greater than the 300 mmHg at the end of the stroke. The structure at most at risk are the fixed walls inside, caused by the red blood cell mass pushed against them (which is exactly what we’re trying to injure). The red blood cell mass should withstand these pressures by way of their construction, high surface area and shape. When jelqing a fully erect very hard penis, pressure increase occurs not by movement of blood (for the most part) but by the transmission of the pressure of the hand grip through the tunica and skin. Yes, the pressures will probably be double or more normal, but like the balloon in the hyperbaric chamber, the red blood cells should survive without problems. The greatest problem with very intense full erect jelqing probably won’t be the red blood cells in the chambers but more likely the skin you traumatize by jamming it against the rock hard tunica.

Unless you have a disease or types of malnutrition that causes fragile red blood cells (and guys with this would know this even without PE), these cells “take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’”. Imagine the pressures on blood cells in the vessels of a contracting muscle doing high intensity weight training, or in the walls of the heart or in the hands of someone using a jack hammer. If the red blood cells could not take the stress of modern day living, we wouldn’t be alive.

So does jelqing injure red blood cells? Probably to a very small degree. But so does sitting on your butt and moving your finger. Is it a problem? I can say emphatically NO.

With all this said, sensible jelqing is the way to go to reduce the chance of any injury. Good luck.


Last edited by pudendum : 12-06-2007 at . Reason: word change

I remember years ago on TV (must’ve been 25 years ago), a thing about marathon runners peeing reddish urine after a marathon - due to repeatedly bringing down body weight on the soles of the feet, breaking red blood cells in the process.

First of all, I once ran a half marathon (about 25 years ago) and never noticed a thing.

Secondly, I’ve not heard of this any other time - probably some runner here can verify or dis-verify.

Thirdly, even if this is the case, we are talking about roughly 50 000 full body-weight impacts (one marathon ~42 000 meters) on a small surface (the heel). That is a lot more than any PE routine, unless it consists of taking a wooden mallet and smacking your dick about 50 000 times daily.


regards, mgus

Taped onto the dashboard of a car at a junkyard, I once found the following: "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." The car was crashed.

Primary goal: To have an EQ above average (i.e. streetsmart, compassionate about life and happy) Secondary goal: to make an anagram of my signature denoting how I feel about my gains

I PE. I am also a blood donor, since long before I started to PE. I was not anemic before I started to PE, and I am not anemic now that I both PE and donate blood.


For Lampwick, becoming hung like a donkey was the result of a total commitment.


Last edited by Lampwick : 12-07-2007 at .

mgus, what you are refering to is called “march hemolysis” or also “march hematuria”. http://www.fpnotebook.com/HEM63.htm
It is a similar process to what I am questioning.
Here is another bit of info: http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec11/ch131/ch131d.html
I might add that the penis is significantly more vascular than the foot.

This unverified, potential effect of significant RBC damage certainly would not apply to 99% of PE’ers, but those people using enough force to cause thrombosis, edema, and splinter hemorrhages (and those are reported injuries on this site) on a regular basis could be doing more than just damage to there penis. Again, anemia is generally asymptomatic and quickly reversible by stopping the over exercising.

Also, Pudendum, RBC’s do not have a lifespan of 30 days. I’m not sure where you got that information from. Most literature suggests an average lifespan of 120 days.

http://www.fi.edu/learn/heart/blood/red.html

The human body is an amazing thing and is designed to take damage and shed and recycle pieces as they are damaged. Problems start to arise, however, when the rate of death/damage exceeds the rate of neogenesis. This applies to any tissue, whether be bone in the case of osteoporosis or RBC’s with anemia.

march hematuria is something a hell of a lot more strenous than overworking one’s dick by PE.

Forget it, by the time you’ve caused yourself anemia by PE, the anemia will be the least of your problems. I don’t believe anybody can get anywhere close.


regards, mgus

Taped onto the dashboard of a car at a junkyard, I once found the following: "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." The car was crashed.

Primary goal: To have an EQ above average (i.e. streetsmart, compassionate about life and happy) Secondary goal: to make an anagram of my signature denoting how I feel about my gains

Originally Posted by suziesun12
Also, Pudendum, RBC’s do not have a lifespan of 30 days. I’m not sure where you got that information from. Most literature suggests an average lifespan of 120 days.

Suziesun12-I was imprecise in my statement. Classic studies (from the 1940’s) pinned the of red blood cell life span at 120 days. The methods by which the lifespan of red blood cells are measured differ greatly (and I will not elaborate); the most medically accepted measurement today yields a a half-life of 30 days, that means 1/2 of say 100 cells remain at 30 days and 1/4 remain at 60 days, etc. Please beg my pardon my use of the term lifespan incorrectly here. The life span of packed red blood cells for transfusion is 30 days (this is how I confused myself). By the way if you’re interested the reference for this, it is in William’s Hematology Chapter 31. Destruction of Erythrocytes, McGraw Hill Co., 2007.

Even if you take your 120 day life span, it is a testament to the resilience of a blood cells ability to bend to get through the smallest of blood vessels, the capillaries. The cell membrane of the red cell actually “tank treads” over its internal contents, accounting for much of it’s sturdiness.

Originally Posted by suziesun12
The human body is an amazing thing and is designed to take damage and shed and recycle pieces as they are damaged. Problems start to arise, however, when the rate of death/damage exceeds the rate of neogenesis. This applies to any tissue, whether be bone in the case of osteoporosis or RBC’s with anemia.

In this statement you have defined disease. When the body can’t maintain its normal state (it’s homeostasis if you will), disease results. So if 99% of guys (I’ll go further on to say 99.9%) have no problem because they’re normal, why do you continue to argue with all of us. Ok, I’ll grant you that I wouldn’t recommend jelqing to a guy who has a disease process that causes red blood cells to break up. Why are you getting worked up about maybe 0.1% of guys who might be affected (and more than likely already know that there are things they can’t do because of their fragile or defective red blood cells or defects in organs of their body that might damage them).

Originally Posted by suziesun12
This unverified, potential effect of significant RBC damage certainly would not apply to 99% of PE’ers, but those people using enough force to cause thrombosis, edema, and splinter hemorrhages (and those are reported injuries on this site) on a regular basis could be doing more than just damage to there penis. Again, anemia is generally asymptomatic and quickly reversible by stopping the over exercising.

You state this red blood cell destruction you are proposing is unverified (and I will promise you unverifiable). And it won’t be because you will not be able to measure enough of a difference to account for the normal variability you find in any lab exam performed (this is why you can get 3 different values for the same sample if you run the test 3 times). You won’t find any researcher to study it. Heck, we can’t even get the medical profession to do studies to verify the successes with PE that we all know exist. It’s just not going to happen because the incidence of problems (which is what the medical profession is based on) is so low as to be nonexistent.

As stated many times in this forum, penis vein thrombosis is over “diagnosed” by many penis owners. If you can strip a vein of its blood, it’s not thrombosed. And by the way, what has thromobosis got to do with blood cell destruction anyway. One does not begat the other; different mechanism: clotting is different than destruction.

Edema formation is the result of a totally different physiological mechanism than for red blood cell destruction. Again unrelated.

Splinter hemorrhages are long skinny splinter looking clots found under fingernails and are the result of trauma to the nail or from an infection of the heart. Since true infections of the heart are probably more uncommon than the hemolysis of red blood cells you propose, this is probably not the reason for the splinter hemorrhages reported. Damage to the nail bed does not presuppose similar damage in the penis by jelqers. Oh, and by the way, bleeding under the fingernail is not an indicator of blood cell breakdown, it’s an indicator of bleeding under the fingernail. It’s that simple.

Originally Posted by suziesun12
I might add that the penis is significantly more vascular than the foot.

Do you seriously believe this?? The penis has arteries, capillaries and veins to the skin and connective tissue structures to keep them happy and alive. The cavernosa and spongiosum are literally dilated veins forming lakes known as sinusoids. The penis is designed to engorge and live in a limited oxygen environment for extended periods (remember anything longer than 4 hours is priapism; that’s the extent to which the tunica can hold out without more oxygen). I guess you haven’t taken a look at the vascular supply to any muscles or even bones lately, particularly in the foot. Why do you suppose that the foot is feed by three very large arterial trunks. It’s not for looks. The foot is a highly vascular structure that makes the penis circulation look wimpy.

Originally Posted by mgus
march hematuria is something a hell of a lot more strenous than overworking one’s dick by PE.

Forget it, by the time you’ve caused yourself anemia by PE, the anemia will be the least of your problems. I don’t believe anybody can get anywhere close.

Amen!!


Last edited by pudendum : 12-10-2007 at . Reason: Fix quote problems

Amen!


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

Originally Posted by mgus

it consists of taking a wooden mallet and smacking your dick about 50 000 times daily.

Are you gaining by this method? Length or girth? Where did you get your mallet?


THEN: bpel 6.0 eg 5.0 bpfsl 6.125 NOW: bpel 7.375 eg 5.25 bpfsl 7.625

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"Right now our only hope is in the hydrogen bomb." - Charles Bukowski

Pudendum, would you really say it is impossible to verify that jelqing damages RBC’s? For example, couldn’t you have someone get a baseline indirect(unconjugated) bilirubin level then jelq vigorously for a few days, then get another bilirubin level and compare the results?

Also, I realize edema is caused by a different mechanism, but my point was that if people are applying enough force to cause these type of injuries, maybe RBC’s are being damaged along the way. And I am not denying the vasculature of the foot, but per unit area there are more blood vessels in the penis than the foot.

Also, I’m not getting “worked up”. I never once claimed PE or jelqing causes anemia or RBC damage. It is an unverified QUESTION, yet I believe able to be tested. I know you believe it cannot. I just don’t understand the desire to vigorously deny the idea when there is mechanical force being applied to the penis and PE is well outside the range of force the penis would normally sustain during sex/use in nature. At least the way I do it. Obviously most PE exercises could not possibly have any significant effect on RBC’s such as flaccid stretches, fowfers, etc. etc.

I am actually glad to see such a vigorous discussion over the idea. It kinda makes me want to test the idea myself. I have a feeling though that if the results did come out to be in support of damage to RBC’s, no matter how insignificant, the results would be dismissed as biased. :) But in reality I doesn’t even affect me because I don’t even jelq often. I’m just a curious person. BTW, thanks for the back a forth Pudendum :) You are clearly a very smart guy.

Originally Posted by wantsmore
Are you gaining by this method? Length or girth? Where did you get your mallet?

Yeah, also, should you pound erect or flaccid?

Is there a difference if you pound in the AM or the PM, and should you do them all at one time or can you disperse it over the course of a day- like piss pulls?


WE are the 99% 'WE are the people you depend on; we cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls. We drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Don't f&ck with us'-- Madame DeFarge

"Rope trades @$10 a yard. I wonder if they even know that?"- Capitalist

Excellent posts, Pudendum.

Suzesun: You may not feel like you are worked up about this, but you are coming across that way. When you make statements such as “I have a feeling though that if the results did come out to be in support of damage to RBC’s, no matter how insignificant, the results would be dismissed as biased”… why would anyone CARE about insignificant levels of damage to RBC as a result of jelqing, if it’s at the same insignificant level as sitting on your butt or wiggling your finger, to borrow Pudendum’s comparison?

I have an idea. I’m going to start a new thread speculating on whether PE causes skin cancer of the penis. After all, the skin is being continually irritated, foreign substances are being applied as lubricants, cell growth is being encouraged (which could run wild and turn into cancer), and your dick is seeing more light exposure, which has been linked with increased cancer risk. I’m not SAYING that you’re going to get skin cancer on your penis from PE, mind you; I’m just saying that all those mechanisms are there, and it COULD happen, and why is everyone denying the truth of what I have to say? And then I could say “I must add that I am an avid PE’er and I do not have skin cancer or symptoms of skin cancer, nor am I claiming PE causes skin cancer. I do stand by the idea that it COULD promote skin cancer to some degree and the only way to know this for sure is by scientific experiment and not assumed understanding of physiology or lack of PE’ers displaying skin cancer or symptoms.”


For Lampwick, becoming hung like a donkey was the result of a total commitment.

Before I achieve guru status (with a cultish following of wooden mallet carriers with blood stained groins) I must admit… I’ve only dabbled in malletry.

However, these general rules apply.

1) It is most effective if you start from the base, and go upwards towards the glans.
2) Mallet sessions start out semi-erect. Depending on your sexual circuitry, they will progress to erect or flaccid.
3) Wooden mallet against a nylon cutting board (easy to rinse) is the recommended setup.

But I sincerely believe that using a mallet is generally well supplemented with the distinct blow of a 3 lb sledgehammer against the pubic bone. One successfull smack - and then be sure to wear tight underwear, or elastic over the pubic region, and repeat every third day. Kind of like bone lengthening, only the other way around. I mean, forget about LOT Theory - why try to pull your ligs away from the pubic bone, when you can gain inches easily by relocating your pubic bone further in?

This last approach can also be used on the forehead.


regards, mgus

Taped onto the dashboard of a car at a junkyard, I once found the following: "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." The car was crashed.

Primary goal: To have an EQ above average (i.e. streetsmart, compassionate about life and happy) Secondary goal: to make an anagram of my signature denoting how I feel about my gains

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