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Growers and showers

Originally Posted by Invisible
I took a quick look at the TP data here: Growers Vs. Showers.

In my quote I spoke of pre pe only since that is what is usually being discussed when people talk about showers and growers in locker rooms, bulges, etc, people who have never PEed. I’m under the impression you clumped pre pe and post pe all together. I never looked into post pe not only because the belief that growers catch up with showers is about people who have never done penis exercises, but also because many PEers say their flaccid gains come first and tend to exceed their erect gains and that might skew the results if one group gains more in flaccid from pe than the other which I hadn’t looked into.

Also, it appears you clumped a group of sizes together as growers and group of sizes together as showers. What size and under did you decide were growers and what size and over did you decide were showers? I only looked into pre pe 3 inch flaccids vs pre pe 5 inch flaccids and the results were the 3” flaccids became pre pe 5.75” erect and 5” flaccids became pre pe 7.25”. In this distinct comparison it wasn’t all that close, but “grower” 3” flaccids did close the gap from 2” to 1.5”. I don’t think I went through all of the threes and fives since I was using pencil and paper to compare with and though I have some understanding of Excel it’s not all that good an understanding so I did it the old fashion way.

It was such a strong indication so I never got around to comparing any other sizes.

This chart is also an indication that a correlation exists:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/…08565/HTMLSTART

Only looking at the studies’ lines in the chart that show both flaccid (unstretched) and erect and converting the cms to inches and then summarizing it in order from longest flaccid group to shortest flaccid group:

—————————-Flaccid—————————Erect——————Gain
Homosexuals———-4.1”——————————-6.5”——————-2.4”
Heterosexuals———3.9”———————————6.1”——————2.2”
Caucasian—————3.8” ——————————-6.1”——————2.3”
German w/ED———-3.6”———————————5.6”——————2”
White/Black/Asian—-3.5”———————————5.1”—————-1.6”
German——————-3.4”———————————5.7”—————-2.3”
Turkish——————-2.7”———————————5.0”—————-2.3”

Not much difference in amount gained per group. The beginning differences between the flaccids pretty much remains as such when erect.

You have the erect difference much closer than my study indicated, and what the above studies indicate. If you did clump post pe in with pre pe is there a way you could get the program you used to just analyze pre pe and perhaps also sort the flaccids more distinctively?


Last edited by beenthere : 08-20-2008 at .

Originally Posted by beenthere
In my quote I spoke of pre pe only since that is what is usually being discussed when people talk about showers and growers in locker rooms, bulges, etc, people who have never PEed. I’m under the impression you clumped pre pe and post pe all together. I never looked into post pe not only because the belief that growers catch up with showers is about people who have never done penis exercises, but also because many PEers say their flaccid gains come first and tend to exceed their erect gains and that might skew the results if one group gains more in flaccid from pe than the other which I hadn’t looked into.


I did mention in the post that it was a very rough study. One issue is that I used the most recent data point from each individual, which could skew the results since it does introduce some element of post-PE into the mix (although this could still occur with individuals with only one entry).

Originally Posted by beenthere
Also, it appears you clumped a group of sizes together as growers and group of sizes together as showers. What size and under did you decide were growers and what size and over did you decide were showers? I only looked into pre pe 3 inch flaccids vs pre pe 5 inch flaccids and the results were the 3” flaccids became pre pe 5.75” erect and 5” flaccids became pre pe 7.25”. In this distinct comparison it wasn’t all that close, but “grower” 3” flaccids did close the gap from 2” to 1.5”. I don’t think I went through all of the threes and fives since I was using pencil and paper to compare with and though I have some understanding of Excel it’s not all that good an understanding so I did it the old fashion way.


The clumps were not based on size. I took the ratio of the erect length to the flaccid length and then found the median ratio. Anyone with a ratio above that was called a “grower” and anyone below that was called a “shower”.

Originally Posted by beenthere
It was such a strong indication so I never got around to comparing any other sizes.

This chart is also an indication that a correlation exists:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/…08565/HTMLSTART

Only looking at the studies’ lines in the chart that show both flaccid (unstretched) and erect and converting the cms to inches and then summarizing it in order from longest flaccid group to shortest flaccid group:

—————————-Flaccid—————————Erect——————Gain
Homosexuals———-4.1”——————————-6.5”——————-2.4”
Heterosexuals———3.9”———————————6.1”——————2.2”
Caucasian—————3.8” ——————————-6.1”——————2.3”
German w/ED———-3.6”———————————5.6”——————2”
White/Black/Asian—-3.5”———————————5.1”—————-1.6”
German——————-3.4”———————————5.7”—————-2.3”
Turkish——————-2.7”———————————5.0”—————-2.3”

Not much difference in amount gained per group. The beginning differences between the flaccids pretty much remains as such when erect.

You have the erect difference much closer than my study indicated, and what the above studies indicate. If you did clump post pe in with pre pe is there a way you could get the program you used to just analyze pre pe and perhaps also sort the flaccids more distinctively?


That’s an interesting paper you linked to. I’ll take a look at it.

I’m also going to redo the study again but use the first data point from each person. This will reduce the effect of PE on the results, although it won’t completely eliminate it since we can’t be sure that the first entry from each individual is a pre-PE measurement.

Originally Posted by beenthere
It was such a strong indication so I never got around to comparing any other sizes.

This chart is also an indication that a correlation exists:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/…08565/HTMLSTART

Only looking at the studies’ lines in the chart that show both flaccid (unstretched) and erect and converting the cms to inches and then summarizing it in order from longest flaccid group to shortest flaccid group:

—————————-Flaccid—————————Erect——————Gain
Homosexuals———-4.1”——————————-6.5”——————-2.4”
Heterosexuals———3.9”———————————6.1”——————2.2”
Caucasian—————3.8” ——————————-6.1”——————2.3”
German w/ED———-3.6”———————————5.6”——————2”
White/Black/Asian—-3.5”———————————5.1”—————-1.6”
German——————-3.4”———————————5.7”—————-2.3”
Turkish——————-2.7”———————————5.0”—————-2.3”

Not much difference in amount gained per group. The beginning differences between the flaccids pretty much remains as such when erect.

You have the erect difference much closer than my study indicated, and what the above studies indicate. If you did clump post pe in with pre pe is there a way you could get the program you used to just analyze pre pe and perhaps also sort the flaccids more distinctively?

One interesting thing is that girth is taken at the maximum point, usually the base.

Where does shower begin and grower end?


Speak softly carry a big dick, I'm mean stick!

Originally Posted by kingpole
Where does shower begin and grower end?

Post #24.

That’s how doctors classify “blood penis” and “meat penis”.

Originally Posted by kingpole
Where does shower begin and grower end?

The term showers OR growers is rather limiting in scope. We really don’t have enough categories. When we speak of erect sizes we break it down into more categories -small, average, above average, big, huge. You aren’t the only one to be unsure, it really hasn’t received the level of detailed studied discussion needed to help determine.

Stevie31 created a nbp flaccid poll that can be used to help with this.
Pre-PE FLACCID Length (NBP, Non-Stretched)

In his erect polls on length and girth I came to realise that by looking at sudden percentage jumps one could get a good idea of where categories began and stopped since his poll results appeared to fall in line well with what we had determined through various studies was average (his erect length poll is bpel but when one subtracts the average 1” from each catergory the result falls well in line with Para-Goomba’s thread in which many of the doctor studies were nbp). So now that I think about it this sudden percentage change indicator can be used to help determine showers.

Taking a look at Stevie’s flaccid poll, that I linked to above, the percentages shown for 4.26” -5.25” begin a sudden change from the percentages of the sizes 2.76” - 4.25”. However, 5.26” and above begins yet another jump down in percentage, also indicating shower but in a stronger sense of the term. In a broad sense - above 4.26” could be said to actually begin “shower”, but 5.26”, and up, is where major showing begins.


Last edited by beenthere : 08-21-2008 at .

Originally Posted by redbear52
The tunica is an envelope of tough connective tissue or fascia that consists of mainly two different types of fibers: collagenous and elastic. The tunica generally has two layers, one with the fibers aligned mainly lengthwise (longitudinal) and the other with fibers aligned circumferentially.

Collagen fibers are relatively inelastic like a tendon. They extend to a predetermined length and not much more regardless of tensile force (until they rupture). Elastin fibers are elastic (duh), and shorten and relengthen readily. The penis is basically an envelope consisting of a sheet of fibrous tissue which gets filled to capacity hydrodynamically (if the hydraulics are working well). The size is largely limited by the inelastic collagen of the tunica if they are stretched to maximum length by sufficient hydraulic pressure in the corpora.

When flaccid, penis size is partly determined by the elastic fibers which tend to shorten and cause the collagenous fibers with which they are intertwined to “pleat up”. I suspect that the ratio of flaccid size to erect size depends partly on the ratio of elastin to collagen fibers in the tunica, and partly to the degree of vasodilatation in the penile arteries.

Really nicely explained, good job!

Originally Posted by beenthere
The term showers OR growers is rather limiting in scope. We really don’t have enough categories. When we speak of erect sizes we break it down into more categories -small, average, above average, big, huge. You aren’t the only one to be unsure, it really hasn’t received the level of detailed studied discussion needed to help determine.

Stevie31 created a nbp flaccid poll that can be used to help with this.
Pre-PE FLACCID Length (NBP, Non-Stretched)

In his erect polls on length and girth I came to realise that by looking at sudden percentage jumps one could get a good idea of where categories began and stopped since his poll results appeared to fall in line well with what we had determined through various studies was average (his erect length poll is bpel but when one subtracts the average 1” from each catergory the result falls well in line with Para-Goomba’s thread in which many of the doctor studies were nbp). So now that I think about it this sudden percentage change indicator can be used to help determine showers.

Taking a look at Stevie’s flaccid poll, that I linked to above, the percentages shown for 4.26” -5.25” begin a sudden change from the percentages of the sizes 2.76” - 4.25”. However, 5.26” and above begins yet another jump down in percentage, also indicating shower but in a stronger sense of the term. In a broad sense - above 4.26” could be said to actually begin “shower”, but 5.26”, and up, is where major showing begins.


Here’s a start: Growers Vs. Showers (Part 2).

I responded there. Once again nice work. I may later on chart it into a condensed table form easier to view.

Invisible, I condensed your data results posted in that thread into a chart. In order to make a more direct comparison of nbpfl vs nbpel I’ve changed the bpel results to nbpel by subtracting 1” from the bp erect lengths, based on a couple of polls at Thunders which have indicated the average fatpad to be about 1”. This conversion to nbp should work well enough with the averages and mediums though may not fit so well the maximums and minimums but all one has to do is keep in mind that the nbpel minimums and maximums could be more or less, or simply add the 1” back and consider those as bpel.
The minimum erect girths appear to be where someone entered thickness instead of girth. The thickness entries will have pulled down the averages and mediums for girth, but since only a few have done so it’s just a very small effect.

nbpfl———————1”-2”———-2”-3”————3”-4”————-4”-5”————-5”-6”———-6”-7”———-7”-8”
Number of Subjects-25————-163————-757—————841—————327————-74—————15
Average nbpel——-3.73”————4.49”————4.99”————5.56”————-6.21”———-6.91”———-7.01”
Medium nbpel———3.5”————-4.5”————-5”—————5.5”—————-6.2”————-7”—————7.25”
Maximum nbpel——5.75”————6.25”————8.6”—————8”——————8.6”————8.875”———8.528”
Minimum nbpel——-2”—————2.75”————-3”—————-3.75”—————4”————-4.75”————6.5”
Average eg————4.03”———-4.59”————-4.86”————5.12”————-5.49”———-5.79”————5.29”
Medium eg————-4”—————4.75”————4.9”—————5”——————5.5”————6”—————-5.5”
Maximum eg———-5.8”————-6”—————-7.28”————7”——————-7.5”————7.5”————-6.5”
Minimum eg————1”—————1”—————-1.5”—————1.3”—————-4.25”———-4”—————-2”
Average growth—-254.6%——-128.3%———78.7%———-54.1%————-38.9%———-28%————11.1%
Maximum growth—475%————262.5%——-183.3%——-112.5%————-80.0%———-64%————32.3%
Minimum growth—-142.3%———60%————14.3%———-5.3%—————1.8%————5.3%————8.3%

One should keep in mind that some are bound to have entered their bpfl instead of nbpfl. The chart isn’t going to be perfect, but on the other hand the rather consistent correlation slope is evident.

Originally Posted by beenthere
Invisible, I condensed your data results posted in that thread into a chart. In order to make a more direct comparison of nbpfl vs nbpel I’ve changed the bpel results to nbpel by subtracting 1” from the bp erect lengths, based on a couple of polls at Thunders which have indicated the average fatpad to be about 1”. This conversion to nbp should work well enough with the averages and mediums though may not fit so well the maximums and minimums but all one has to do is keep in mind that the nbpel minimums and maximums could be more or less, or simply add the 1” back and consider those as bpel.
The minimum erect girths appear to be where someone entered thickness instead of girth. The thickness entries will have pulled down the averages and mediums for girth, but since only a few have done so it’s just a very small effect.

nbpfl———————1”-2”———-2”-3”————3”-4”————-4”-5”————-5”-6”———-6”-7”———-7”-8”
Number of Subjects-25————-163————-757—————841—————327————-74—————15
Average nbpel——-3.73”————4.49”————4.99”————5.56”————-6.21”———-6.91”———-7.01”
Medium nbpel———3.5”————-4.5”————-5”—————5.5”—————-6.2”————-7”—————7.25”
Maximum nbpel——5.75”————6.25”————8.6”—————8”——————8.6”————8.875”———8.528”
Minimum nbpel——-2”—————2.75”————-3”—————-3.75”—————4”————-4.75”————6.5”
Average eg————4.03”———-4.59”————-4.86”————5.12”————-5.49”———-5.79”————5.29”
Medium eg————-4”—————4.75”————4.9”—————5”——————5.5”————6”—————-5.5”
Maximum eg———-5.8”————-6”—————-7.28”————7”——————-7.5”————7.5”————-6.5”
Minimum eg————1”—————1”—————-1.5”—————1.3”—————-4.25”———-4”—————-2”
Average growth—-254.6%——-128.3%———78.7%———-54.1%————-38.9%———-28%————11.1%
Maximum growth—475%————262.5%——-183.3%——-112.5%————-80.0%———-64%————32.3%
Minimum growth—-142.3%———60%————14.3%———-5.3%—————1.8%————5.3%————8.3%


It looks good. There’s just one typo that’s important to point out: it should read “median”, not “medium”. Also, note that the minimum growth in the 5”-6” range is -1.8% and the minimum growth in the 7”-8” range is -8.3%. Some poor saps actually have erect lengths smaller than their flaccids. :(

Originally Posted by sta-kool

Perhaps some also entered their bpsfl (bone pressed stretched flaccid length)

That’s a good point. AndroNYC is one of the guys with a shorter erect length than flaccid and I seem to recall that he is keen on measuring FSL. It’d be nice if there was better standardization in these measurements so we’d be able to do proper comparisons.

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