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Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

Originally Posted by marinera
Thank you.
I basically agree with your explanation, but there is a little problem :

it should be a consequence of that explication that mild erection would be more beneficial, when pumping, if I’ m not wrong in something. Adversely, as ThunderSS pointed, and near any guy who tried pumping could agree, when pumping there is more lymph build-up with lower intense erections than with peak erections.

This is why I supposed that others tissue than tunica could augment their volume more easily than tunica, so the effect on these tissues are worse then when we clamp, and effects on tunica are lower.

But it seem you don’t agree.

So, what are we missing?


I think that the reason there is less edema fluid build up at peak erection is because the skin and tissues below it are pulled taut and are essentially splinted next to the tunica This decreases the capillary fluid leak caused by the negative pressures (for reasons I will not belabor here, unless you really want me to). At lower levels of erection, the effect of the negative pressure on the capillaries are unrestricted and this is why the fluid build up is higher.

I went through a rather extensive reason why the formation of edema fluid would be less with clamping than with pumping in an earlier post in this thread. I think I would make most of you guys nauseous if I tried to repeat it.

Originally Posted by pudendum
I think that the reason there is less edema fluid build up at peak erection is because the skin and tissues below it are pulled taut and are essentially splinted next to the tunica This decreases the capillary fluid leak caused by the negative pressures (for reasons I will not belabor here, unless you really want me to). At lower levels of erection, the effect of the negative pressure on the capillaries are unrestricted and this is why the fluid build up is higher.

I went through a rather extensive reason why the formation of edema fluid would be less with clamping than with pumping in an earlier post in this thread. I think I would make most of you guys nauseous if I tried to repeat it.

:rolling: :rolling:

Some humour is just what was needed here.

Originally Posted by pudendum
Tom Lue, MD is a respected expert in erectile dysfunction and Pyronie’s disease. He is a Professor, vice-chairman and occupies an endowed chair in the Department of Urology at the University of California San Francisco School of Medicine. When he says that blood flow entering and leaving the cavernosa ceases at the peak erection, I believe him. What you believe is up to you.

Pudendum, let’s be careful with experts’ opinions.

Experts sometimes make statements which are correct in one context, but not in an other.

Before I buy Dr. XY’s statment regarding anything, I want the study or paper where measurements of - penile blood flow under peak erection conditions in this case - have been performed.

Anyhow, if it is true that the intracavernous pressure is above 200 mmHg which is well beyond arterial blood pressure, then the arteries would be compressed and arterial inflow reduced to zero.

Why then can one have sex for hours without discoloration? Probably because peak erection is not a several hour phenomen but repeatedly interrupted by phases of slightly decreased erection quality IN ORDER to restore the oxygen tanks (if I were a smart dick, that’s how I would proceed.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by pudendum
No. Pressure within the tunica does not rise, it drops. The pump probably causes a very small pulling effect on the wall of the tunica (like mravg’s example with his tank under pressure), decreasing the pressure in the chamber. Why?

In the very specific peak phase of erection when cavernosa pressure is well above arterial pressure, there will not be a net influx of NEW blood into the cavernosa. There will, however, probably be a small increase in volume in the cavernosa from blood in the unpumped penis (from the base to the root). This would be because the pressure of the blood in the unpumped penis (which will be still above arterial pressure) will be higher than in the pumped when the negative pump pressure causes it’s small effect on the very low compliance tunica. The penis will equalize the pressure by moving blood. This small volume effect might be enough to cause volume-induced wall tension necessary for growth of the circular fibers of the inner tunica to cause growth in girth.

Correct. The volume increases, the pressure drops, and blood from outside is ‘pulled’ into the penis.

Effect: the tunica is stretched. Which is good.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by pudendum
No. Pressure within the tunica does not rise, it drops. The pump probably causes a very small pulling effect on the wall of the tunica (like mravg’s example with his tank under pressure), decreasing the pressure in the chamber. Why?

In the very specific peak phase of erection when cavernosa pressure is well above arterial pressure, there will not be a net influx of NEW blood into the cavernosa. There will, however, probably be a small increase in volume in the cavernosa from blood in the unpumped penis (from the base to the root). This would be because the pressure of the blood in the unpumped penis (which will be still above arterial pressure) will be higher than in the pumped when the negative pump pressure causes it’s small effect on the very low compliance tunica. The penis will equalize the pressure by moving blood. This small volume effect might be enough to cause volume-induced wall tension necessary for growth of the circular fibers of the inner tunica to cause growth in girth.

You are right.

I think my confusion stems from the STARLING equation which, however, governs fluid filtration across a membrane and not pressure-volume relations as in the case discussed here. Sorry.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by pudendum
In the very specific peak phase of erection when cavernosa pressure is well above arterial pressure, there will not be a net influx of NEW blood into the cavernosa. There will, however, probably be a small increase in volume in the cavernosa from blood in the unpumped penis (from the base to the root). This would be because the pressure of the blood in the unpumped penis (which will be still above arterial pressure) will be higher than in the pumped when the negative pump pressure causes it’s small effect on the very low compliance tunica. The penis will equalize the pressure by moving blood. This small volume effect might be enough to cause volume-induced wall tension necessary for growth of the circular fibers of the inner tunica to cause growth in girth.

At peak erection there is probably no net influx but as I pointed out above, peak erection is not maintained forever. Many pumpers (as I) experience partial loss of erection at the end of the session even when entering at peak erection. Most likely the intracavernous pressure drops during pumping below arterial pressure so that there is unimpeded arterial influx as long as dictated by the pressure differences. However, as experience shows, as soon as the vacuum is released the excess blood in the cavernosa will leave the penis and so you pull a plumb but only partially erected penis out of the pump.

This consideration may also be relevant when discussing erect vs unerect entry into the tube and might favour to start at low erection level because more blood can be ‘pulled’ in the cavernosa. In contrast, when starting to pump at peak erection the penis root is initially sealed, so that no substantial further expansion might be possible.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by marinera
Let me do a simple resume of what are you saying, pudendum, because your post are a bit complex (this is not a critic, of course) and many of readers could be exhausted here:

Assuming a 100% erection, once the pressure in the cylinder-pump is zero, blood inside CC can expand tunica with max force. After this point, lowering the pressure inside the cylinder is not really effective for tunica, because it’ s compliance is too low and because no more blood can be pushed inside CC, giving the peak erection physiology.

So, lymph build-up is the main consequence of negative pressure, and this lymph is not stressing the tunica.

Is this right, or I have done errors?

The only error is that peak erection is usually not maintained during a complete pumping session.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by pudendum

In the very specific peak phase of erection when cavernosa pressure is well above arterial pressure, there will not be a net influx of NEW blood into the cavernosa. There will, however, probably be a small increase in volume in the cavernosa from blood in the unpumped penis (from the base to the root). This would be because the pressure of the blood in the unpumped penis (which will be still above arterial pressure) will be higher than in the pumped when the negative pump pressure causes it’s small effect on the very low compliance tunica. The penis will equalize the pressure by moving blood. This small volume effect might be enough to cause volume-induced wall tension necessary for growth of the circular fibers of the inner tunica to cause growth in girth.

This part of the theory is in error. I find it near impossible to come close to a peak erection inside the tube. At least for any length of time. To say the the pump simulates a peak erection, I would think that would be in error as well. I think you need to buy a pump, it could help your theory and all of us move forward.

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
I would not care some much about capillaries (the smallest blood vessels) but the arteries (bring in the blood and have the high blood pressure required for a good erection, and the nerves, also required for erectile function but beyond that, may cause numbness when damaged by clamping - which would be very unlikel while pumping even at high pressure.

During peak erection, do the capillaries have a another way in? As in do they get blood from a different route than the CC?

Originally Posted by ticktickticker
This consideration may also be relevant when discussing erect vs unerect entry into the tube and might favour to start at low erection level because more blood can be ‘pulled’ in the cavernosa. In contrast, when starting to pump at peak erection the penis root is initially sealed, so that no substantial further expansion might be possible.

I am not an expert on this, but others have confirmed and I have have some experience in two stage pumping. Starting with a smaller cylinder and then moving to a larger cylinder helps prevent lymph build up.

Pude, I think we still need to look at time as a factor on Tunica expansion rather than just pressure. As in pumping for 20 minutes at 15hg will get you to pack 2” tube, but you will have lymph fluid. But pumping for 1 hour at 5-8hg will get you to pack a 2” tube with much less lymph fluid.

So if your penis increases in size and the lymph build up is minimal, it is Tunica expansion.

Originally Posted by pudendum
The arteries and veins to the skin (and the tissues between it and the tunica) are different than those feeding the cavernosa (lets not talk about the spongiosum here because it is different; it has to stay soft enough for ejaculation). Even at peak erection, blood flow continues, so the skin will continue to look pink and healthy.

However the medical information with regard to the cavernosa is different. The arteries and veins of the cavernosa are set up so that as the blood fills and expands it, the veins are pinched and no longer drain. The erection chambers continue to fill until the pressure inside is equal to the arteries filling it. So blood flow in ceases and blood flow out is pinched.

I think I now see the confusion with my statement that blood flow to the penis ceases at peak erection. It is the blood flow to the cavernosa, not the skin and tissues below it. So the penis will continue to look nice and healthy and pink (or whatever color your health penis has).

Thanks for helping me to clarify this, Sparkyx.

This is a really great discussion, I think the best I’ve seen here yet! Thanks again to everyone involved.

Originally Posted by pudendum
The arteries and veins to the skin (and the tissues between it and the tunica) are different than those feeding the cavernosa (lets not talk about the spongiosum here because it is different; it has to stay soft enough for ejaculation). Even at peak erection, blood flow continues, so the skin will continue to look pink and healthy.

However the medical information with regard to the cavernosa is different. The arteries and veins of the cavernosa are set up so that as the blood fills and expands it, the veins are pinched and no longer drain. The erection chambers continue to fill until the pressure inside is equal to the arteries filling it. So blood flow in ceases and blood flow out is pinched.

I think I now see the confusion with my statement that blood flow to the penis ceases at peak erection. It is the blood flow to the cavernosa, not the skin and tissues below it. So the penis will continue to look nice and healthy and pink (or whatever color your health penis has).

Thanks for helping me to clarify this, Sparkyx.

Originally Posted by sparkyx
This is a really great discussion, I think the best I’ve seen here yet! Thanks again to everyone involved.

Thanks Sparkx, I missed that.so

1. The blood continues to go to the skin and CS during max erection - so it has another route.
2. Pude, during a pumping session, you are saying that the pressure from the blood inside the penis causes the veins to get pinched off just like a max erection. Even if true, does the pressure pinch off the “incoming veins” (arteries?) or just stop the out flow?
3. I potentially could stay in the tube for an hour at 10hg with no realize of the pressure and my penis would look now where near the color of a max erection clamped with two clamps for 10 minutes. It is different. There is blood getting to the skin and there is tunica expansion.

Originally Posted by SteadyGains

Pude, I think we still need to look at time as a factor on Tunica expansion rather than just pressure. As in pumping for 20 minutes at 15hg will get you to pack 2” tube, but you will have lymph fluid. But pumping for 1 hour at 5-8hg will get you to pack a 2” tube with much less lymph fluid.

So if your penis increases in size and the lymph build up is minimal, it is Tunica expansion.

In engineering terms, you are saying that the tunica has viscoelastic properties. This is the theory behind ADS strategies as well (low stress for long periods of time). A visco elastic material will have low initial elongation when even high force is applied, but, elongation increases with time, even at lower forces. Good point.


Horny Bastard

Originally Posted by mravg
In engineering terms, you are saying that the tunica has viscoelastic properties. This is the theory behind ADS strategies as well (low stress for long periods of time). A visco elastic material will have low initial elongation when even high force is applied, but, elongation increases with time, even at lower forces. Good point.

Mravg,

I was just going to add that all day compression (ADC?) also proves this theory. I have had a quest to stay “plump” before and after a workout (or just because I like it) and have had varying success. But I know if I spent say 2 to 3 hours in a type of ADC, my clamping or pumping session starts like I have already done a few sets. Thus even a minor stress on the Tunica over a period of time provides for easier expansion. Now add in any negative PI’s and the expansion is not there.

Originally Posted by mravg
Originally Posted by SteadyGains

Pude, I think we still need to look at time as a factor on Tunica expansion rather than just pressure. As in pumping for 20 minutes at 15hg will get you to pack 2” tube, but you will have lymph fluid. But pumping for 1 hour at 5-8hg will get you to pack a 2” tube with much less lymph fluid.

So if your penis increases in size and the lymph build up is minimal, it is Tunica expansion.


In engineering terms, you are saying that the tunica has viscoelastic properties. This is the theory behind ADS strategies as well (low stress for long periods of time). A visco elastic material will have low initial elongation when even high force is applied, but, elongation increases with time, even at lower forces. Good point.

This makes sense to me and squares with my experience.

So, what do we think therefore of low force with no erection going into the tube?


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