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Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

Pudendum, I appreciate your knowledge of erectile physiology. I don’t pretend to know that much about it and don’t intend to question what you say. You provide good references. Blood flow in the penis during erection is apparently very low, or zero, but there is a big difference between zero, as stated in your first reference, and almost zero, as stated in your second.

Sure the penis can withstand low oxygen for “some time” but how much time is that? How much flow is almost no flow? I would guess that even very miniscule flow through the penis during marathon sex can do a lot to prevent oxygen deprivation.

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I am not sure how you can say there is a difference between a filled balloon and the penis as far as response to negative pressure at peak erection

Well, you answer your own question in your next sentence.

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(I will grant you that up to this point, blood is drawn into the penis by the negative pressure; this is what made it good for guys with ED).

There you go. That doesn’t happen with the balloon. Actually it is more accurate to say that blood is forced into the penis by the heart, facilitated by less external pressure on the tissue, allowing it to expand.

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Again at peak erection, the penis is exactly like the balloon, an isolated system, Therefore the effects depend on compliance, not inflow or outflow. Remember, I’m talking about peak erection.

I would modify your statement as follows:

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Again at peak erection, the penis is not exactly like the balloon, not an isolated system, because the effects (of vacuum) depend on compliance (of the penile tissue), as well as externally applied pressure on the internal fluid in the case of the penis, but not the balloon, Even if there is not inflow or outflow. Remember, I’m talking about peak erection.

Look at it this way: you connect a hose with 60 psi water pressure to a metal tank. there is a pipe on top of the tank with a valve on it. You fill the tank until water is coming out of the pipe, then shut the valve.

The water is still turned on, so there is 60 psi in the tank and hose, but there is no flow in or out.

Now, you magically turn the tank into a rubber walled tank that expands 5% due to the 60 pounds of pressure on it.

The tank has grown in size, water flowed to fill the additional space, then stopped when the system reached equilibrium. The pressure in the tank is still 60 pounds.

That is your penis.

Put a giant cylinder over this tank and pull a vacuum. The tank will grow more, water will flow into it, it will reach equilibrium, and the pressure will still be at 60 pounds.

The balloon full of water is much different:

Take the same example of the full tank.

This time you shut off the hose first with a valve at the tank where the hose connects to the tank. ( a knot in your balloon!)

Then you magically turn the walls in to rubber as before.

The tank grows due to the internal pressure, and as the tank grows, the pressure drops. It reaches equilibrium at some size smaller than the tank in example one, and the pressure is something less than the original 60 pounds.

Now put a giant cylinder over this tank and pull a vacuum. The tank will not grow more as in the first example.

The difference is the pump. The heart in your body, or the pump at your city water department. The balloon is a closed system, and the penis is not, because it is connected to your heart, even if there is no flow, there is pressure applied from the outside, just like that hose connected to the full and closed, tank.


Horny Bastard


Last edited by mravg : 01-03-2008 at .

Originally Posted by pudendum
Turn the tables. If instead of using negative pressure in the pump, let say you apply a positive pressure of 6 in Hg (say you have the ability to seal it). If negative pressure is added to cavernosa pressure, than positive pressure must be subtracted. Can you imagine that by adding positive pressure outside the penis that cavernosa pressure would decrease? I can’t.

As in my example of the fluid filled balloon exposed to a negative pressure. The balloon with the fluid will expand and in so doing decrease the pressure of the fluid within. The opposite would occur with positive pressure. Is the cavernosa of the penis different, no matter how small the pressure change might be because of the stiff tunica at peak erection? I don’t think so.

If you add the negative pressure to pressure within the erectile chambers, then instead of inflating a flaccid penis, it would push the blood out. It would have never been a medically approved method for impotence (before Viagra and the other phosphodiesterase-5 inhibitors) if this was the case.

So which way is it? It can’t be both ways. Help me to understand this here.


I get your point.

But let us look yet from an other angle, or from two other angles.

The negative pressure outside of the penis would increase it’s volume and increase the pressure inside of the corpora cavernosa. This is true but irrelevant for dick growth. The tunica is only interested in wall stress. Wall stress depends on volume, not on pressure.

The other point I made already some time ago is that in pumping the cavernosa are open towards the remaining circulation. Therefore, if the volume increases in the corpora because of tunica expansion there is a net influx of blood into the corpora. The pressure will tend to remain constant.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
The penis may just bring in more blood though pudendum, the balloon doesn’t have that option.

Sorry - I didn’t see that the master already spoke on the subject.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by wadzilla
Tickler,
I believe that it’s not the Bib hanger that causes the base girth, it’s more or less the “tree roots” syndrome. I was not a hanger, but my base girth increased even more than my overall girth. I think that was because of all the vigorous pulling I did.

It seems like some of the “inner penis” gets pulled out. Furthermore, the hairline on my shaft also climbed noticeably (this might further suggest what I just mentioned).

I noticed the same phenomenon, so your explanation is probably right.

However, what exactly happens at the place were one places the hanger. There is local compression but no shape deformation. Or is there such a thing? (I am mostly using a vac hanger, I cannot speak from experience).


Later - ttt

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mravg

Mrvag,

Thanks for your clarifications, I was hoping someone with a physical (rather than physiological) background would chime in.

Coming back to the question originally asked in this thread: difference between pumping and clamping.

Would you be so kind and try to come to some sort of preliminary answer if not a conclusion?


Later - ttt

Mrvag’s example of a metal tube vs. A condom (with the penis somewhere in between) is a very good concept. All our (sofar often incorrect) use of assumptions and formulas regarding pressure are distracting our view from the essential common point between clamping and pumping:

The V O L you M E effect.

I may be repeating myself, but it is the total volume of blood and the consequently stretched volume of the tunica and related structures that is relevant, because it is the volume change that is transformed into

A W A L L E X T E N S I O N and

A W A L L S T R E S S effect.

I would hypothesize that it is the increased wall extension and increased wall stress that ultimately causes physical deformation and biologic effects, which, in concert induce penis growth.

The volume effects are ultimately consequences of pressure effects, as described quite convincingly be mrvag.

An important difference between clamping and pumping is that the “balloon” is open to the rest of the circulation it the case of pumping, but that the balloon is closed (clamped) in the case of clamping.


Later - ttt

Originally Posted by mravg
The balloon full of water is much different:
Take the same example of the full tank.
This time you shut off the hose first with a valve at the tank where the hose connects to the tank. ( A knot in your balloon!)
Then you magically turn the walls in to rubber as before.
The tank grows due to the internal pressure, and as the tank grows, the pressure drops. It reaches equilibrium at some size smaller than the tank in example one, and the pressure is something less than the original 60 pounds.
Now put a giant cylinder over this tank and pull a vacuum. The tank will not grow more as in the first example.

Doesn’t this concept violate the concept of incompressibility (=inexpandibility) of fluids? (Is the compliance of a fluid really zero?).


Later - ttt

My feeling is that mravg is right on this specific point. Even when clamping, seem to me that a minimal flow exist in the penis.

A 100% erection could maybe cease any blood-flow, but a 100% erection is near an ideal thing. Erections we have the most of time are under 100% of intensity.

But, returing on the topic of this thread, there is any difference in pressure effects on tunica, when pumping Vs. clamping?

Originally Posted by ticktickticker

Doesn’t this concept violate the concept of incompressibility (=inexpandibility) of fluids? (Is the compliance of a fluid really zero?).

Good catch. I envisioned a very very small amount of tank growth due to the softening of the walls which would drop the pressure to zero. You are actually right, the fluid wouldn’t grow. The pressure might drop due to changes in stress in the tank wall, but really that wouldn’t be tank growth.


Horny Bastard

Originally Posted by marinera
But, returning on the topic of this thread, there is any difference in pressure effects on tunica, when pumping Vs. Clamping?

I agree, although the technical knowledge is great, how does this apply to the question or help us get better girth gains?

Originally Posted by ticktickticker

Mrvag,

Thanks for your clarifications, I was hoping someone with a physical (rather than physiological) background would chime in.

Coming back to the question originally asked in this thread: difference between pumping and clamping.

Would you be so kind and try to come to some sort of preliminary answer if not a conclusion?

Thanks for asking, but as you can see, I am an engineer who thinks in terms of pumps, tanks, and pipes. I have never pumped my penis, so I’m not sure how good an answer I can give.

A couple of general things which were probably already mentioned earlier:

1. It sounds like we have a general idea of how much pressure differential is created by pumping (200mm Hg normal erection pressure + 150 mm Hg caused by the drop in external pressure (6 inches Hg). So the force on the tunica may be close to doubled from normal. I think Pudendum gave us these numbers. But how does that compare to the pressures involved in clamping? I expect clamping creates more pressure, but it would be nice to have some data.

2. A lot of the nerves, veins and arteries (and I suppose lymph vessels) in the penis are external to the corpora. When you put the penis inside a vacuum, the pressure in those vessels causes them to expand, their walls to get thinner, and this appartently leads to leakage and probably harmuful effects.

On the other hand, when you increase pressure in the corpora, the vessels outside of it are compressed, not expanded, and that apparently is less risky.

Therefore it seems to me that the stress you can apply to the tunica by vacuum pumping is limited by potential damage to other structures in the penis caused by the vacuum. The stress you can apply with clamping is probably greater because there is less of a negative effect on the other structures from the internal pressure, and the pressure is mainly just effecting the tunica.


Horny Bastard

Originally Posted by mravg
2. A lot of the nerves, veins and arteries (and I suppose lymph vessels) in the penis are external to the corpora. When you put the penis inside a vacuum, the pressure in those vessels causes them to expand, their walls to get thinner, and this appartently leads to leakage and probably harmuful effects.
On the other hand, when you increase pressure in the corpora, the vessels outside of it are compressed, not expanded, and that apparently is less risky.

One caveat I would add is that when clamping at full erection, the capillaries in the skin are stressed to the max as well. There are harmful effects caused by the clamping that is not caused by pumping.

Yes, good point. You can tell from the bruising that clampers get that the pressure in those vessels is high and can be damaging.

So my thought on the differences is not an adequate explanation. I’ll have to think about it some more.


Horny Bastard

Hi,

Sorry, I’m e lazy guy, so I only managed to read the first 3 pages. But really interesting thread.
I’m not an anatomy expert. So I only can tell how it worked for me.

I gained more from clamping than I did from pumping.
I get little fluid build-up from pumping, and none from clamping.
I had no injury with pumping. I got 1 thrombosed vessel from clamping.

Even if I could use a little more length and girth, I’m now really satisfied and proud of my size.
So I nearly stopped all exercises that can cause me injuries ( I only talk for my dick ).
So now I only do pumping, followed by a moderate pressure clamping session, and from time to time, a little jelq.

So, for me :
Clamping at high pressures gave me the best results, but I find it more dangerous.
I do really prefer pumping, even if it less effective for me, and I do like the feeling.

Happy new year!


05/2006 : 15cm BPEL X 12,5cm EG => 11/2006 : 17.5 cm BPEL X 13.5 cm EG => 5/2007 : 18 cm BPEL X 13.5 cm. 2 years later : shrank a bit : 17cm BPEL 01/2011

Really satisfied with my gains, but a little more flaccid would be nice. Would like to be a shower ;)

And most important : Girlfriend satisfied for about 3 years :)

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