Thunder's Place

The big penis and mens' sexual health source, increasing penis size around the world.

Girth theory: glans and corpus cavernosum.

Great topic, so maybe here I find my help! So I too have the “soft head” problem. My CC is always rock hard without problems but my head goes soft if I sit or lie down. Just before ejaculation it expands nicely but only that time, or if I kegel some blood in.

Now the interesting part! I was told by an urologist that the heads blood supply comes only from the CS. My question: why does my head become bigger (well actually I think just normal) when I push on my dorsal vein (or one vein in that area, don’t know exactly)?? If the heads blood supply comes from the CS why does pushing on 1 vein of the CC have an effect on it??


Currently: BPEL=6.8" NBPEL=5.9" MSEG=4.48"

Originally Posted by marinera
I don’t think Xenolith is going to answer, Mick, I doubt he’s a member anymore.

Ya just noticed that, lol.

Well I hope SOMEONE answers… this sounds like powerful stuff.

I wrote the following in a post in the thread Keeping the Corpus Cavernosum Uretha Erect and Expanded (11-30-2007, 02:52 PM, post #4):

Originally Posted by pudendum
The corpus cavernosum urethrae, better known as the corpus spongiosum, has different characteristics that will make it difficult to get larger or harder.

First, from a physiological and reproductive standpoint, it would be counter productive to perpetuation of our species for the CS to be a high pressure erectile chamber like the corpus cavernosa. There would be compression of the penile urethra and cause retrograde ejaculation into the bladder (just like for many of us guys who take drugs like Flomax for prostate enlargement, but causes retrograde ejaculations for different reasons). The net results is little to no semen. You don’t increase the population when this happens.

Second, as your research probably showed you, without the rigid tunica investing it, the CS acts differently than the CC. Once the CC’s become filled at erection, the rigid “box” which the tunica forms, compresses the veins that drain it causing the pressure in the CC to rise to several hundred millimeters of mercury (mmHg). Normal blood pressure is an average 120 mmHg. This makes the CC very hard. The CS has continued blood draining through open veins during erection, keeping it spongy (I think that’s why it’s called the corpus spongiosum). By the way this is not the venous leak that you probably have heard about. This is normal physiology. The distal (or far) end of the CS is the glans. As erection builds, the blood flow increases as well, but until complete erection, a lot of blood shunts from arteries to veins (to be technical it acts like a ateriovenous fistula) which then drains from the penis. This keeps the glans less than engorged and not that hard. At near complete erection, the increased blood engorgement occurs, there is blood congestion so that blood drainage decreases and the head reaches its erect size and hardness.

So what can you do? You already use a ring. This overcomes the venous drainage and allows your CS to engorge completely. You may find that you don’t ejaculate well, because of urethral compression (ring vs. spongiosium hardness?). This as you state has no permanent effect. Jelqing may increase CS size, but not to the same degree as CC because of the absence of tunica. You will not be able to generate the pressure in the CS venous sinusoids to cause as much microinjury in the trabeculae (the walls surrounding the blood in the erectile chambers). This may increase its size at full erection, but as you said you observe, your CC will become very hard before your CS will become fully engorged. Pumping , squeezes, slinkies, etc. will probably do no better.

My suggestion: Continue girth type PE and wear the ring. At least with the ring you will better see the extent of your PE success on your CS.


cayance - your urologist is correct, one of the major branches of the pudendal arteries is the carvernous artery which branches and supplies the corpora cavernosa, the dorsal artery, the skin, subcutaneous tissue, and the glans penis. The venous drainage of the head of the penis is somewhat complex. In Smith’s General Urology, chapter 38 - Male Sexual Dysfunction, Anthony J. Bella, MD, & Tom F. Lue, MD write:

Quote
The glans penis possesses numerous large and small veins that communicate freely with the dorsal veins [both deep and superficial]. The penile skin and subcutaneous tissue are drained by superficial dorsal veins, which then empty into the saphenous veins.


So you can see that you can push some blood back into the head by pushing the blood in you superficial dorsal vein toward your penis head. But be aware that the deep dorsal vein generally runs below it and massaging the superficial dorsal vein will probably push it’s blood to the head as well and cause the head to be harder.

Xenolith hasn’t posted in a long time. His posts now say ‘“Former Member”. He had very interesting ideas and used some very high intensity PE; not for the faint of heart. You are unlikely to get an answer, though it would be great if he did.

Originally Posted by pudendum

Xenolith hasn’t posted in a long time. His posts now say ‘“Former Member”. He had very interesting ideas and used some very high intensity PE; not for the faint of heart. You are unlikely to get an answer, though it would be great if he did.

Well SOMEONE else has gotta know, lol.

Man-of-10 said this could be the greatest thread in Thunder’s Place history just above… so maybe he knows?

Also, LongVehicle seems to have solved the problem via clamping… not sure how though.

I’ve no time right now to read over the thread. But still, my understanding was that Xenolith was referring to the splaying of fibers in the different tunica layers. Off the top of my head, for maximal length gains, one would do some girth work before their length routine. This would cause the length fibers (fibers running from base to tip) to be pulled further apart from one another, “splayed”.

Anyway it’s bedtime for me. However, if we imagine the tunica and it’s layers like a mesh, we can see that doing girth work immediately prior to length work may make the length work much more effective (and vice versa) because we are effectively loosening the mesh as a whole.

Then there are the purported diagonal fibers. If they exist, then IMO, stretching would stretch them out most effectively.


Decemeber 2007: 5.8" BPEL x 4.9" MSEG

Current:-------->7.7" BPEL x 5.7" MSEG (7.2" NBPEL)

Current Goal:--->7.6" BPEL X 5.8" MSEG Do or do not, there is no "try".

Originally Posted by man-of-10
I’ve no time right now to read over the thread. But still, my understanding was that Xenolith was referring to the splaying of fibers in the different tunica layers. Off the top of my head, for maximal length gains, one would do some girth work before their length routine. This would cause the length fibers (fibers running from base to tip) to be pulled further apart from one another, “splayed”.

Anyway it’s bedtime for me. However, if we imagine the tunica and it’s layers like a mesh, we can see that doing girth work immediately prior to length work may make the length work much more effective (and vice versa) because we are effectively loosening the mesh as a whole.

Then there are the purported diagonal fibers. If they exist, then IMO, stretching would stretch them out most effectively.

So this can be told to be the plot of this thread?


04.27.2009: 6 x 4.5 (BP)

12.01.2009: 7.5 x 5 (BP)

Did I mention they are flaccid measurments?...Kidding! :p

Girth fibers and length fibers are not meshed. There is a layer for girth, and another layer for length.

Originally Posted by marinera
Girth fibers and length fibers are not meshed. There is a layer for girth, and another layer for length.


This is exactly what the microscopic studies of the tunic have shown - an inner tunica layer with circumferential oriented fibers and an outer one with longitudinally oriented fibers (lets not confuse the picture at this time with the 1 or 3 layer tunicas that exist in some guys). To truly understand what I referred to as “splay” several years ago, image in your mind that the collagen fibers are for the most part arranged side by side (this maybe slightly over simplified). Even though there are cross-links between collagen fibers, when a force is applied perpendicular to the long axis of these fibers, the fibers can be pulled apart to some extent (“splay”). This is important because as the circumferential fibers attempt to achieve their maximum length (to give you girth) (which is counter to the orientation in the longitudinal fibers), the fibers of the longitudinal fibers will be pulled away from each other and vice verse. This could mean that the cross links between collagen fibers are one of the major restrictions to tunica enhancement.

This begs the question. In tunica-based PE routines, how much of the successes are the results of elongating fiber length (which we have talked about ad nauseum - though I’d love to talk about it more) in both length and girth, and how much is due to stretching or breaking the weaker cross links between fibers reducing their restrictive actions to allow longitudinal and circumferential fibers in the other layer to reach lengths closer to their maximum to giver you a longer and fatter penis, respectively?


Last edited by pudendum : 04-22-2010 at .

Thanks for the clarification, Pudendum.

It seems what you are pointing to is the idea that doing girth and length work together could be more effective (for length) than doing only length work (and viceversa?). But it seems that many, if not most, of advanced PEers feel that girth work makes length gains harder to achieve.

Also: after girth work, your penis is fatter, more pumped. This means that longitudinal force is figthing more resistance.

I’m not sure either that, when pulled apart, the longitudinal fibers will oppose less resistance. A bundle of fibers (I mean fibers that touch one side the other) will oppose the same resistance than the same number of fibers that are pulled apart. Are you supposing there is some amount of friction between one longitudinal fiber and the conterminous, that add more resistance to longitudinal elongation?

So it appears that the question here now becomes: If the layers are splayed which would account for expanded girth measurements during a clamping session, do they fill in with new fibers in between the originals or do they fatten which would also result in increased girth?

I’m not sure that length is enhanced all that much because the ligs would still be the limiting factor overall. What is left to be determined is the recovery rate of the lattice to it’s original state and how often expansion needs to take place for growth to be accomplished.

It seems, for the sake of argument, that these layers would need expansion very often and on a regular basis. How fast they could restore themselves is what seems to be key here to change.

What is fascinating to contemplate here is if one guy has three layers, and another has one layer, does this explain why some guys can experience ballooning where another cannot?


09-2003 BPEL:6.0x5.5

11-2004 BPEL:8.25x6.25 . . 9+ by Spring is the goal AIR CLAMP

Now BPEL:8 5/8 x 6 5/8 PE Weights

Originally Posted by marinera
Girth fibers and length fibers are not meshed. There is a layer for girth, and another layer for length.


Yeah of course, but it works as an analogy, as in both cases, it may be best to stretch along both axis (length and girth) to achieve maximum expansion.

Guys, diagonally running fibers have definitely been mention in this thread and similar threads yet I can’t imagine what layer they would be in. I remember I had a few posts with my theory of how they tie in. I wonder if I can find them.


Decemeber 2007: 5.8" BPEL x 4.9" MSEG

Current:-------->7.7" BPEL x 5.7" MSEG (7.2" NBPEL)

Current Goal:--->7.6" BPEL X 5.8" MSEG Do or do not, there is no "try".

Originally Posted by Monty:
So it appears that the question here now becomes: If the layers are splayed which would account for expanded girth measurements during a clamping session, do they fill in with new fibers in between the originals or do they fatten which would also result in increased girth?


Because of the perpendicular arrangement of the fibers between the circumferential inner layer and the longitudinal outer layer of the tunica, they appear to work at cross purposes. Clamping at peak erection will place a very high tension on the tunica throughout its entire length - mainly circumferential, but also longitudinal to a lesser degree. Splay does not account for the expanse of girth measurement during clamping. The predominant force in the tunica will be on the circumferential layer placing a tension along the long axis of the circumferential arranged collagen fibers. With this force, the expansion of girth puts stress on the fibers of the longitudinal layer forcing (or splaying) them apart to some extent, the amount of splay will be limited by the ability to stretch the cross links.

The rate limiting step to girth enhancement will be in the element with the greatest resistance to tension-induced stretch; this would be the collagen fibers in the circumferential layer, not the cross links in the longitudinal layer. So if clamping is to work, it must induce collagen fiber elongation in the circumferential layer to increase girth. I don’t think that you can say that girth expansion is solely the result of splay.

When tension is applied to tendons or ligaments (depending upon force and duration) there can be either collagen fiber lengthening (increasing flexibility) or fiber thickening (to resist tendon rupture). Since the stress induced by the splaying of the fibers of the longitudinal layer as a result of cavernosa expansion is not along its long axis, it should not affect either elongation or hypertrophy of fibers in this layer. The stress will be on the cross links, will they decrease or increase over time as a result? Good question.

There is no real space to fill in and the character of the tension stress should not result in “…new fibers in between the originals…”

Originally Posted by Monty:
I’m not sure that length is enhanced all that much because the ligs would still be the limiting factor overall. What is left to be determined is the recovery rate of the lattice to it’s original state and how often expansion needs to take place for growth to be accomplished.


I have to disagree with you here. I believe that penis enhancement is multifactorial, both in length and girth enhancement. There is substantial evidence and experience in this forum that tunica stretching maneuvers (v- and inverted v-stretch, etc.) result in lengthening independent of ligament stretch.

I am also not sure what you mean by a lattice and where this lattice resides.

Originally Posted by Monty:
It seems, for the sake of argument, that these layers would need expansion very often and on a regular basis. How fast they could restore themselves is what seems to be key here to change.

What is fascinating to contemplate here is if one guy has three layers, and another has one layer, does this explain why some guys can experience ballooning where another cannot?


The layer question (remembering that guys with 2 layers are far, far more common than are either 1 or 3) is a very interesting one and has been since it was first presented in this forum (and it has been presented several times in several different threads). We can but theorize. Makes for interesting discussion.

The question of how often and by what force one would have to expand these tunica layers is a good one. High stress on tendons or ligaments results in thickening. Our goal is not to thicken collagen fibers as this would inhibit any lengthening of the collagen fibers (either longitudinal or circumferential).

Originally Posted by man-of-10

Guys, diagonally running fibers have definitely been mention in this thread and similar threads yet I can’t imagine what layer they would be in. I remember I had a few posts with my theory of how they tie in. I wonder if I can find them.

man-of-10 - I’m not sure what you mean by diagonal fibers in the tunica. Histological studies of the tunica do not support their existence. Do you have any studies that you can present to us about diagonal fibers in the tunica?

Hey pudendum, yeah I was reading back through this thread. Optimizing PE considering tunica structure

I think perhaps the diagonal fibers form as a result of stress, but I’m still pretty unsure.


Decemeber 2007: 5.8" BPEL x 4.9" MSEG

Current:-------->7.7" BPEL x 5.7" MSEG (7.2" NBPEL)

Current Goal:--->7.6" BPEL X 5.8" MSEG Do or do not, there is no "try".

Originally Posted by pudendum

I have to disagree with you here. I believe that penis enhancement is multifactorial, both in length and girth enhancement. There is substantial evidence and experience in this forum that tunica stretching maneuvers (v- and inverted v-stretch, etc.) result in lengthening independent of ligament stretch.


I don’t understand how a v- or inverted v-stretch can be applied without stress to the ligs. Seems like they would be involved predominately regardless of angle or fulcrum stress. Perhaps you could give me a clue to how those physics can apply to the tunica without ligament involvement. Ive always felt that the only means to tunica work is through clamping or perhaps a pump ( I question the value of a pump on inner structure influence )

Quote
I am also not sure what you mean by a lattice and where this lattice resides.


What I was referring to was the relationship between the circumferential inner layer and the longitudinal outer layer of the tunica. I forget where I saw that mentioned the they formed a perceived lattice but wasn’t necessarily one that was bound together as you might suspect by the word lattice. I find it very interesting that they would be independent of each other though.

Quote
The question of how often and by what force one would have to expand these tunica layers is a good one. High stress on tendons or ligaments results in thickening. Our goal is not to thicken collagen fibers as this would inhibit any lengthening of the collagen fibers (either longitudinal or circumferential).


Yes I agree, that is the quest, to stretch without building structure. A fine line for sure. I’ve always maintained that the minimal amount of weight used in a routine is the best approach because it tends to stay under the bodies radar for mass repair processes which would be counter productive. So the by-word is not only “less is more” but more emphatically “don’t over train”.


09-2003 BPEL:6.0x5.5

11-2004 BPEL:8.25x6.25 . . 9+ by Spring is the goal AIR CLAMP

Now BPEL:8 5/8 x 6 5/8 PE Weights

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