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Girth theory: glans and corpus cavernosum.

Originally Posted by dickerschwanz
Im got the thought that actually for that purpose low intensity and long time might be usefull.

Cant find the thread where this was mentioned in detail right now.
Soemthing along: The chemical properties of the elastin component after long duration constant stretch change.

It might then be primed to do a focused exercise without having to deal with the “elastic rebound”/elasticity.

I agree that the amount of time at force matters. But the more I’ve PE’d, the more I think the gains come from going beyond the elastic force levels. Staying in the elastic range to me ultimately means that the tissue will elastically “bounce back” to its old form, with no meaningful changes. I’d also agree though, that “easing into” an exercise will make the elastic range longer, which could be its own growth mechanism. But then I think once the tissue is “primed” then it’s still beneficial to go beyond the elastic force and actually do some damage.

Last night after reading xeno’s post I Googled the term “yield stress” and then viewed the google images page. There are some good graphs there. Notably several very similar graphs of stress vs. strain, probably referring to metals for engineering purposes. But the general shape of the curve should apply to collagen fibers as well. I’m going to attach the image of the graph here, as I think it’s copyright safe, simply describing a common mechanical property, probably included in every mechanical engineering textbook written in the last 100 years.

I also wikipedia’d (our language is fucked, and I’m guilty) the terms stress and strain. There are highly detailed pages on these mechanical physics terms. But for our purposes, this general definition is useful enough.

“In continuum mechanics, stress is a physical quantity that expresses the internal forces that neighboring particles of a continuous material exert on each other, while strain is the measure of the deformation of the material.”

So we exert a PE force (stress), for example hanging at the attachment point. And that force propagates down our entire penis into the connecting tissues in our abdomen. Each particle of connective tissue is passing the force along to the next particle, and that’s stress, the force between any two neighboring particles in our connective tissue.. That force causes elongation (strain). Strain is literally just the particles moving relative to each other. It sounds like a force, but really its a measure of movement under force.

Getting back to the point though, those yield stress graphs for deforming metals should apply to our connective tissue as well, with roughly the same shape. The shape of the graphs contain a linear segment at low force levels. Each additional unit of force (or stress) causes X additional units of strain (elongation or expansion). The linear section is called the “elastic range”. As stress is increased up to the “yield stress” point, the slope of the graph begins to decrease, and each additional unit of stress causes MORE than X additional units of strain. What’s happening here is that chemical bonds in the material are breaking, and re-arranging, attempting to hold on and keep the object intact, but beginning to fail in the weakest areas, at least that’s my understanding. This is called the “plastic range”.

The plastic range in the graph looks like an upside down parabola, with its maximum (apex point) being called the “ultimate stress”. Up until the the ultimate stress point, strain is increasing relatively faster than stress. Each marginal unit of stress is causing more and more strain up until that point. Beyond that point, the material begins to fail. Strain continues to increase, while stress is actually decreasing. If force level is constant, upon reaching the ultimate stress, the material will probably quickly fail, unless the force can be removed between the time ultimate stress is reached, and the time the material fails. I have no real experience with this, so I don’t know how fast the material fails, but my guess is that it happens very fast.

My understanding of PE leaves me unclear on how to interpret this. My gut reaction is to say that our ideal force level is the ultimate stress point. This would cause chemical micro-tears in the target connective tissues at their weakest points. Going beyond that point would lead to quick failure, which could be interpreted as injury. However, in the IPR hypothesis, as long as we’re talking about individual connective fibers here, we would actually want go beyond the ultimate stress and break the fibers and begin the micro wound healing process. Another thought here is that breaking the fibers could lead to the splaying and cross linkages, because when new collagen is laid down, it is laid down omni-directionally and only later is aligned with other fibers, and it takes months or years for the new collagen to fully align itself (the remodeling phase of IPR). So that “afterthought” would also be an argument to stay in front of the ultimate stress point, and trust that the chemical micro tears are sufficient damage to initiate the IPR process.

In either case, I’m convinced that we at the very least want to get as close to the ultimate stress point as possible, because our goal here is strain, and we get the most bang for our buck (strain for our stress) the closer we get to the ultimate stress point. And maybe we even want to intentionally go up to and beyond that point to induce failure. I’m not sure on the right thinking. Again my gut reaction is that failure in this analogy is real injury, while just in front of the ultimate stress point is the sweet spot we’re aiming for, where we’re getting deformation that results in tissue repair and growth, but not ultimate failure that results in injury.

I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on that distinction, xeno.

Another tangential idea. I think the mechanics graph I’m sharing is probably for a metal. An interesting area of discussion is how the shape of the graph would differ for our target tissues in the penis. I would think the elastic range would have a much lower slope. Penis tissue is quite a bit more elastic than rigid metal. I would also guess that the plastic range has a relatively steeper parabola (relative to its own elastic range slope). Making the plastic range smaller (in strain) relative to its own elastic range. In other words, metal is not elastic, there is a very small movement in response to elastic level forces. But once it hits plastic range, there is a relatively large movement in response to a relatively small increase in force. Penis tissue is more elastic, relatively large movement in response to elastic force, but once in plastic range, relatively little additional strain can be achieved up to the point of ultimate stress. Put in other words again, when I stretch my penis, I can probably go from 4” to 7.125” elastically, but can only get from 7.125” to 7.375” plastically. Compared to a 4” metal rod, where it might be something like going up to 4.125” elastically, and then 4.125” to 7.375” plastically (total guesses for illustrative purposes.

I really went off, but it is a good topic. Getting back to your post dickerschwanz, my current understanding of PE is that successful PE is about spending large amounts of time beyond the elastic range, but before the ultimate stress. And then spending large amounts of time letting the tissue heal, so that it can be deformed again.

Attached Images
stress vs strain.gif
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Before 5.5" x 4.1" volume 7.3 ci ////// Now 7.4" x 4.9" volume 14.1 ci

High carbon steel?

Guys, we want to grow the penis, not deform steel. Going over the elastic limit just means a first grade injury for living tissue. Injuries don’t make your penis bigger, could make it smaller and deformed.

Right. BeardedDragon your psot gave some food for thought.

Check this presentation. Its about tendons/ligaments i nthe same amnner you talked about steel.
On slide 28 it shows exactly the same diagram as for the steel
https://www.colorado.edu/neuromecha…on_handout.pptx.

And if you think about it. The most you would want to go over the elastic region is just about one “dot”.

Now the really important slide is, and thats what Im getting at with my thought about more time then intensity, is slide 15.
Showing viscoelastic trait #3. Slow stretch means less force needed.

I try to dig deeper into it.
Im not sure about slide 14 showing Viscoelasticity trait#2hysteris(stretch&recoil)

But I think thats what happened to me doing 3 months elastic clamping and after a week going back to no gains(recoil)

Also on gogole books you can get apreview of the book: Science, Theory and Clinical Application in Orthopaedic Manual Physical Therapy: Applied Science and Theory

From page 48 on it explains very good what happens with short and long time stretches and their intensitys, in a practical way.
Its excellent!

I also read about it already in detail, I think o nthe forum, but I cant find my links to this right now :-(


Last edited by dickerschwanz : 04-23-2015 at .

(in reference to above link to google book preview: Science, Theory and Clinical Application in Orthopaedic Manual Physical Therapy: Applied Science and Theory)

We have to go beyond the so called “toe region”, which is the normal elastic range where collagen functions(stretch and recoil back to zero).
That is a given fact or all lwe get is temporary expansion for the time beeing.

After this region we enter: The “linear region” , where micro failure beginns.
(and I think we have to do it with the longitudal and circumfrential layer to increase the possiblity to get there!)

Everything above that goes into the region of injury with the rupture as the final end step.

IMO the linear region should be the aim for a healthy PE practice!
Im sure many who gained did go beyond this region into the region of more then micro injury, while increasing their possiblity for disfunctional tissue considerably(!!!).

Thoughts?

So Im going on with some more posts as each post is related to part of the whole picture(for me its harder to comprehend and follow when reading a long post with unknown definiitions). And each post/part can be discussed easier.

The toe region:
The elasticity(that will come back to zero after load removal) works in pushing fluid out of the collagen matrix.
Now what happens after prolonged elongation within this region? For a stretch of a second within that region it will recoil to zero.
But what happens after hours? Still back to zero?
The idea beeing that any permanent elongation possiblities within this region would allow to use rather low forces/intensitys that could be applied without much need for a healing phase.

The factors that prevent entering the linear region of micro injury are the range of muscles(not that prevalent as in lets say biceps/elbow relation but what is the relation of the smooth muscles here?)
, and cross links, which is our theme here I suppose. As do convalent bonds where colalgen molecules adjacent can slide oover each other.

So the easy way out is just going beyond the elastic properties with high force, and we know that works with PE albeit with several trade offs.(injury, constant need for higher forces)
BUT we also know that people get results through long time expansion at lower forces like pumping or extending.
Which makes me think that the elastic properties are decreasing after a long time exposure even to low forces.
Now most information available, as also in this book, is about stretching tendons in legs and feet etc. Which means there is rarely a case where we have a stretch in the toe region that lasts for hours.

at page 50 it gets really interesting:
Plastic phase(beginning at the upper end of the linear phase) produces changes that are either permanent or require a long time until the collagen returns to original length and alignment.
Exactly what happens with many PE ‘s they gain some and loose some of the expansion. As not all structures within the collagen matrix are affected the same some will return and some will stay me thinks..

(with the following in the book im not clear by now what it means and if it applies to the penis)
(But it seems to talk about how force in one direction “eccentric” gives possiblities to the collagen in the counter concentric motion, but not sure what it means to the penis or if this is about what we try to achieve with prefatiguing..)


Last edited by dickerschwanz : 04-23-2015 at .

On page 52 it goes into deformity guidelines:
1.5 % elongation for less then an hour causes no permanent deformation.
0.2 - 2.0 % elongation for more then an hour can cause permanent changes by melting of the tropocollagen bonds.

Within 2% elongation, recovery can happen within 24 hours.
Elongation at 3-8% will cause tearing while maintaining its gross continuity.
Permanent stretching occurs by either tearing the gross structure or by disrupting the intermolecular boonds between tropocollagen units.

So for me at this point in my mind a clear vote for long time exposure to relativly low tensions, done every day.

Great book, that goes on for even more details that are usefull for us I suppose.

I have the problem that I cant get my glans bigger enough after an errection as I used to befor a year. I was a virgun and a year befor I had sex for the 1st time with an older women. I kept havin sex for few months and then I got stressed and we had no affair any longer but this has been more then 8months now but My errections are not so firm after that untill now.

Whats the problem. how can I get to my real errections back. Im so worried that I have lost my firm errections. Please share you experience to helo me??

Thanks

Originally Posted by dickerschwanz
On page 52 it goes into deformity guidelines:
1.5 % elongation for less then an hour causes no permanent deformation.
0.2 - 2.0 % elongation for more then an hour can cause permanent changes by melting of the tropocollagen bonds.

Within 2% elongation, recovery can happen within 24 hours.
Elongation at 3-8% will cause tearing while maintaining its gross continuity.
Permanent stretching occurs by either tearing the gross structure or by disrupting the intermolecular boonds between tropocollagen units.

So for me at this point in my mind a clear vote for long time exposure to relativly low tensions, done every day.

Great book, that goes on for even more details that are usefull for us I suppose.

Interesting how over an hour so much less force is needed, as little as 0.2% ? Seems very low.

That was an excellent link, dicker. And the graph on 28 confirms a very similar shape to the graph for steel, so I wasn’t horribly far off, marinera.

Makes me wonder how they got their data, and if we could find a way to make the same stress/strain graphs for a penis ligament, or the tunica - even if it’s very imprecise in methods, as long as we could replicate the general shape of the graph, we would know we have ballpark figures on the different zones of the graph, and correct corresponding force levels.

Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of time right now and wasn’t able to preview that book yet. I still think that real gains (i.e. permanent, won’t disappear a few months later) happen from damaging the collagen fibers. The graph pg 28 and your quotes from the book maybe show two possible ways. One being high force for short time periods, getting into the plastic region of the graph. And then the book quote also saying lower forces for enough time (several hours) is enough to cause micro-damage.

Gotta go now but I will read more depth into all this later.


Before 5.5" x 4.1" volume 7.3 ci ////// Now 7.4" x 4.9" volume 14.1 ci

Originally Posted by capernicus1
Interesting how over an hour so much less force is needed, as little as 0.2% ? Seems very low.

0.2% was the elongation or strain. Highly dependent on which tendon/ligament they were measuring. The powerpoint link showed wrist tendon and achilles as two ends of the spectrum. 0.2% could be enough for the achilles which doesn’t move much, but can take relatively high forces. But it wouldn’t be enough for the wrist which can move a lot relatively, but takes low forces.

The penis is a boner, why didn’t these orthopedists take data on it.


Before 5.5" x 4.1" volume 7.3 ci ////// Now 7.4" x 4.9" volume 14.1 ci

1.5% elongation of what? What is this 1.5% calculated on? Say your BPFSL is 180 mm, even if you pull with all your force. Should you pull to 181.5 mm to have permanent deformation? Of what kind? Is the tissue functional? If you strain your lig, maybe its a bit longer, but hurts as hell and with time could develope an inflammation.

I confess I have not read those links, but that is nothing new. I think it is pretty old and not specific material. Are the experiments done in vivo or in vitro? Shiver made great articles on this field, if any of you missed them.

The idea of curved (or poli-curved) cylinders is interesting.

Yeah cap, thats tremendous. For the tendon the tension multiplies over “time”. It basicly adds up.
After all many gained through basic extending espacially when doing it all day, everyday. Or riding the fatigue, which is explained scientificaly in the book I would say.

Time is surely a huge factor but we knew that already..

I mean these are no new findings per se. Most gain anyway cause they sooner or later hit one of the phases were permanent elongation happens . Either on the time or on the intensity axis.

For me as in observation of gainers and myself, Its not about either going for “short time - high intensity” or “low intensity - long time”, but rather “both”.
I think we have some bits and pieces here and there with Xeno coming probably closest to a whole approach. I just hope we can lay it out in some way plainly to get it easy to apply and teach.

Also the experiences of most of the gainers, obviously. are quiet content with the statements in the science/books.
Its just hard to translate into a format that is repeatable and understandable.
But laying it out plainly one can see why high intense and low intense PE practitioners can have both success.

The book is a goldmine in that regard laying it out rather plainly.
It goes on about some more. Im not yet ready to summarize but hope we can achieve that together as plainly translated to our problem as possible.
I hope some of you will read it too. Its maybe 2-3 chapters who are also readable in the google preview.
Starts on page 48:
http://books.google.de/books?id=z90…nepage&q&f=true

Originally Posted by BeardedDragon
0.2% was the elongation or strain. Highly dependent on which tendon/ligament they were measuring. The powerpoint link showed wrist tendon and achilles as two ends of the spectrum. 0.2% could be enough for the achilles which doesn’t move much, but can take relatively high forces. But it wouldn’t be enough for the wrist which can move a lot relatively, but takes low forces.

The penis is a boner, why didn’t these orthopedists take data on it.

Right. the book goes on how the elastic content of the tendon/collagen will determine the exact numbers.
I think there are indicators how much elastin the tunica has. Btw. the observation that some older PE practitioners gain better might have to do with lower elastin content at older age and thus a narrower “toe region”, entering the plastic phase easier.

Interesting is that the elastic zone can also be increased.
Starting with the nice picture 3.7 it gets interesting for our purposes here:
“Repetitive training models will increase elasticity of collagen and its inability to elongate under greater loads(!).
Passive stretching will increase collagen length through deformity but weaken the collagen.”
Passive stretching is labelled as static I think.

So much for now. It goes on about how these modes can be influenced through heat.

Originally Posted by marinera
1.5% elongation of what? What is this 1.5% calculated on? Say your BPFSL is 180 mm, even if you pull with all your force. Should you pull to 181.5 mm to have permanent deformation? Of what kind? Is the tissue functional? If you strain your lig, maybe its a bit longer, but hurts as hell and with time could develope an inflammation.

I confess I have not read those links, but that is nothing new. I think it is pretty old and not specific material. Are the experiments done in vivo or in vitro? Shiver made great articles on this field, if any of you missed them.

The idea of curved (or poli-curved) cylinders is interesting.

Its nothing new. Its all said already in some way or form.
Its just rather plainly translated into the field of applied physiotherapy. Which is not that far from PE I suppose, minus muscles and bones.

I have to admit reading some of the older threads I cant follow most the time as its too complicated presented. Im not bad at understanding and comprehension but I feel like needing to study biomechanics first.
While bearded dragon made some good points in his presentation about metal(and it has a relation) it is the kind of thing that makes my brain go *poof*. Same for Xeno, I love him but I cant follow him lol.
The book I linked in above post is great as any stupid might understand it :D

I wouldnt get too hung up on the exact numbers in % etc. but view it as in tendencys.

Just checking some of Shivers threads and he mentioned this already 10 years ago lol
Deformation: Intensity, Method and Recovery guidelines


Last edited by dickerschwanz : 04-23-2015 at .

Originally Posted by dickerschwanz
It goes on about how these modes can be influenced through heat.

I’ve quoted that book before on occasions. It is of some value to us certainly, as it explains in relatively ‘layman’s terms’ some of the typical behaviour of collagenous tissues. The penis is complex because we are looking at differing compositions of collagenous tissues in different parts of the penis. That is one of the reasons I have always banged on so much about heat; aside from lowering the ‘deformation’ point to a safer level (one more commonly attained by ‘normal’ PE), it considerably widens the effective window of strain response at a given stress level over a range of tissues of differing composition.

It’s not just a case of different collagenous tissues having different make-ups, but also that not all of us are the same - for example a ‘shower’ v. a ‘grower’, or a newbie v. a heavily conditioned PEer etc.. Which is why ‘feel’ is so important to PE; We cannot reduce stress to a scientific formula that will work for everyone. You may find the perfect amount of stress and time for one tissue, but it may be too much or too little to affect another - however, add proper heating into the mix, and all collagenous tissues will be affected at a relatively lower level of stress. Safer and more effective PE. :)


Heat makes the difference between gaining quickly or slowly for some guys, or between gaining slowly instead of not at all for others. And the ideal penis size is 7.6" BPEL x 5.6" Mid Girth.

Basics.... firegoat roll How to use the Search button for best results

Pe

Quick question pretty nub to this but does penis enlargement actually work . Like jelqing has anyone had some results

Thanks it would be very much appreciated

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