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Elasticity

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Elasticity

I was never a huge fan of Physics, but I’ve been doing a lot of speculating during my extended PE break, from a number of different angles. I recently dusted off an old Physics text from my school days and was thumbing through it. I came upon a few chapters; one was entitled “Mechanics of Systems of Particles,” another was “The Mechanics of Rigid Bodies,” but the one that caught my eye was entitled “Elasticity: The Mechanics of Deformable Solids.” This last chapter explains the minute details of elasticity & deformation. Of course, there is little in Mechanical Physics that can be directly applied to PE, but the discipline certainly confirms the How and the Why of elasticity & plastic deformation (i.e., PE is a logical & explainable phenomenon).

A few sentences that caught my eye: “…a local deformation must be transmitted to all parts of the body (in our reference, the “penis”). The mathematical computation of the deformation resulting from given forces is a problem in Elastostatics, while Elastodynamics deals with the changes of elastic disturbances in time….if we displace several atoms from their rest positions and then release them, they will move beyond those points in returning; and the vibrations will spread throughout the whole body, on account of the connections between the atoms.”

But that last statements shows that elasticity results in the tissues “moving beyond” their original points of “rest” after the tension is released. Of course, this is not visible to the naked eye; but for PE, we need to work against that retraction as much as possible (this has been referred to as the “kickback reflex”). This could explain why some guys (like Johan) have made length gains with mild stretches; it can also explain that “tension under Time” – i.e., fowfers, hanging, etc. – is very useful in combating “retraction.” Maybe even traction wrapping, perhaps.

What this brief little jaunt into the realm of Mechanical Physics also reveals is the limitations of applying it directly to PE. Obviously, the penis is not quite a “rigid body” or even a “deformable solid” (since the CC/CS are expanded with fluid – blood). Also, there are more pertinent facts associated with biology/physiology that could more specifically assist us in our efforts. However, the principle of Elasticity is something we need to contend with, and finding ways to minimize the tissues “moving beyond” their original points of rest should be something we’re all trying to figure out.

I believe some promising areas of experimentation would lie in temperature (applying heat before and during stretching), and of course - tension under time; as well as experimenting with different degrees of tractional forces.

Too bad we don’t have some handy chart to refer to….

Originally Posted by wadzilla
I believe some promising areas of experimentation would lie in temperature (applying heat before and during stretching), and of course - tension under time; as well as experimenting with different degrees of tractional forces.

Nice to see you’re coming around. I remember waaay back when there was a discussion on heat in PE and you blasted away saying that people should just pull instead of thinking too hard.


2010-01-09: BPEL: 19,7cm [7.75"] EG: 15,0 cm [5.9"]

2010-04-24: BPEL: 20,4cm [8.0"] EG: [???]

ebon,
I’m not anti-science, nor was I railing about heat per se, I think I was referring to some of the bizarre theories/speculation that had been popping up from a number of posters. Things like nutritional cocktails, other wild combinations - even attempting to obtain prescription/experimental drugs, etc. I believe that the theory end of PE can get a little wacky, especially since few, if any, of us have the resources to conduct true scientific experimentation (and to accurately assess results).

I believe that obsessive theorizing may be the last resort of folks who’ve reached the point of despair over a stubborn plateau (as I have). Sometimes we can make things too complicated; other times, we even drift away from things that work in favor of “promising theories.”

I’m pretty much going back to the basics. A lengthy break - for purposes of deconditioning stubborn tissues - seems to offer me some promise as my recent FSL was 1/8” longer than it’s ever been. But I’ve come to believe that TIME spent stretching is more important than extreme intensity. When I made the bulk of my length gains, I was doing PE every other day and stretching for no more than 15 minutes per session. When I ramped up the intensity, I think I just developed a stronger, not longer, unit. I needed to allow those stubborn tissues to decondition.

Have just been browsing pages about muscle stretching and found this:

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/11/04/27.html

It’s not too long so here it is.
It mentions the use of both heat and cold. Also the paragraph beginning “Taylor et al. in a very interesting paper attempts to refute the effect of stretching methods based solely on …” and the very last paragraph might be worth checking out.

On Stretching

————————————————————————————————————————
Stretching exercises are used to improve flexibility which is related to increased range of motion. Increased flexibility should aid in the prevention of muscle strain injury. But, like many methods used in training and rehabilitation, there have been no controlled studies or, for that matter, no clinical studies evaluating stretching and muscle strain.1 There is definite controversy regarding the benefits of passive stretching.2,3 Murphy states that a careful search of the literature fails to support the notion that static stretching prevents injury.2
There are three basic categories of stretch: static stretching, ballistic stretching, and PNF (proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation) methods. Static stretching is a method whereby the individual stretches a muscle group to a length just short of causing pain (mild discomfort is acceptable) and holds the stretch for recommended periods of 6-60 seconds or more. It is thought that static stretching in the absence of pain will modify spindle activity (stretch reflex) allowing a slight increase in length.4,5

The ballistic stretch allows repetitious bouncing movements at the end-range where the muscles are rapidly lengthened and immediately returned to resting length.4,5

This method is supposed to facilitate the myotatic reflex by increasing both static and dynamic spindle activity and muscle stiffness.5 This method is no longer considered useful as it may cause strain injury.

PNF techniques include contract-relax, hold-relax, contract-relax-antagonist-contract, postfacilitation stretch, and other methods. Alter mentions eight types of PNF techniques.6 PNF promotes or hastens the neuromuscular mechanism through stimulation of the proprioceptors.7 When a patient’s muscle is stretched and the patient voluntarily isometrically contracts the muscle, it is thought that the Golgi tendon organs’ reflexes are stimulated inhibiting or relaxing the muscle (contract-relax and hold-relax method) and the muscle is then passively stretched. If the antagonist to this muscle is next isometrically contracted (contract-relax-antagonist-contract method), then through reflex inhibition, the agonist muscle will be further relaxed. At this point, the muscle can be passively stretched to a new position. The contract-relax-antagonist method may be the most effective of the PNF methods.5

Taylor et al.4 in a very interesting paper attempts to refute the effect of stretching methods based solely on the reflex mechanisms. They feel that the true effect of stretching is related more to the viscoelastic properties of the muscle-tendon unit. The elastic element refers to the spring-like element of tissue where the elongation produced by tensile loading is recovered after the load is removed, thereby creating a temporary or recoverable elongation.8 The viscous properties allow permanent deformation and are considered time-dependent and rate change-dependent. The rate of deformation is directly proportional to the force applied.4 Stress relaxation and creep are examples of viscoelastic properties. Stress relaxation occurs if tissue is stretched to a fixed length tolerable to the patient; the tissue will relax and less force will be necessary for the tissue to remain at the same length. If the force is kept constant, the tissue will elongate due to the process known as creep. When viscoelastic tissue is stretched, the above properties allow plastic or permanent deformation.

The muscle-tendon contains an active (contractile) and passive (non-contractile) component. The active part is related to the interaction between the contractile proteins (actin and myosin) within the muscle fibers. The passive components consist of the connective tissue factors within and around the muscle (perimysium, epimysium, endomysium, sarcolemma), the associated tendon and its insertion, and the connections between the sarcolemma and the tendon.5 Flexibility exercise has its main effect on the passive elements. It is thought that the resistance to stretch is mostly from the extensive connective tissue framework and sheathing within and around the muscle and not from the myofibrillar elements.8

In a condition such as adhesive capsulitis of the shoulder, in order to achieve plastic deformation, a prolonged stretch appears to be very beneficial. It has been found that rapid application of force to collagenous tissues results in increased stiffness2 and affects primarily the elastic tissue. This explains one reason why patients with adhesive capsulitis of the shoulder do not benefit from joint play adjustment and why prolonged stretch is necessary for increased changes in ranges of motion. Often in adhesive capsulitis of the shoulder a joint play adjustment may tear fibers and perpetuate the inflammatory process.

It has been shown that the use of heat along with stretching relaxes the collagen fibers and allows greater elongation. Besides influencing the collagen, the increased temperature increases the sensitivity of the Golgi tendons aiding muscle relaxation. The temperature should be over 104 F. It has been found that the use of ultrasound during stretching is more effective in lengthening. A procedure that works very well in treating adhesive capsulitis is putting the patient in a supine stretched position with the shoulder in lateral rotation for 20 to 60 minutes, with moist heat applied to the shoulder followed by 15 minutes of ice maintaining the stretched position. The patient can hold a weight if it does not increase pain. Cooling the tissue is thought to allow the collagenous microstructure to restabilize more toward its new stretched length.8

Taylor et al.4 experimented with rabbit muscle/tendons and felt that the main response to stretch could be explained by viscoelastic properties alone, exclusive of reflex effects. They found that denervated muscles responded similarly to the innervated muscles in flexibility testing. Interestingly, they found that most of the stress relaxation took place within 12 to 18 seconds of stretch and there was insignificant relaxation afterwards. They also found that in static stretching, 80 percent of the stretch occurred after the first four stretches and stretching afterwards improved elongation very little. Of course we are dealing with rabbit tendons — are there any human volunteers in the audience?

***

Hope this wasn’t too lengthy, but I didn’t trust my ability to summarise.


"I just said it was big, honey. I never said it was pretty. "

- Me, a year from now.

Great post Yippee!

Looks like I’ve been travelling done the right road using heat for all my hanging bar the 2nd half of the last set, but maybe it time to “ice” in the stretched position.

I may not have rabbit tendons, but I do have rabbit tendencies ( I want to root all day!)

This is a great thread you guys. Thanks for all of your research. Happy gaining dudes!


The Plumber Starting @ 6.5x5 bpe 12/20/03 Now 7.0"x5-1/8" bpel 1/20/04 Goal @ 8.5x6.5 bpe

The viscous properties allow permanent deformation and are considered time-dependent and rate change-dependent. The rate of deformation is directly proportional to the force applied.

I tend to suspect that the time factor is even more important than the force applied. Even hangers tend to apply the forces for 1-4 hours per day. Also, the ADS/PM devices are used for 8-12 hours per day.

It has been found that rapid application of force to collagenous tissues results in increased stiffness2 and affects primarily the elastic tissue.

I believe this is what led to my plateau - pulling like hell for brief periods of time, which just strengthened my collagenous tissues (tunica, ligs, etc.). Again, this underscores the importance of the time factor over force.

It has been shown that the use of heat along with stretching relaxes the collagen fibers and allows greater elongation. Besides influencing the collagen, the increased temperature increases the sensitivity of the Golgi tendons aiding muscle relaxation. The temperature should be over 104 F.

It makes sense that heat would “loosen things up,” so to speak.

Cooling the tissue is thought to allow the collagenous microstructure to restabilize more toward its new stretched length.

I wonder if they mean the cooling should be applied while still in the stretch, or immediately after. I would think they mean during the stretch, after heat has been used.

Interestingly, they found that most of the stress relaxation took place within 12 to 18 seconds of stretch and there was insignificant relaxation afterwards. They also found that in static stretching, 80 percent of the stretch occurred after the first four stretches and stretching afterwards improved elongation very little.

I find this last passage somewhat dubious. The experience of our hangers here would clearly refute that statement. I know that during my brief foray into hanging, my unit seemed to relax long beyond that 18 seconds. Of course, they’re referring to studies of rabbit tendons. So, in theory, none of this shit may apply to human males attempting to elongate their pisspipes.

>It has been found that rapid application of force to collagenous tissues results in increased stiffness2 and affects primarily the elastic tissue.

>I believe this is what led to my plateau - pulling like hell for brief periods of time, which just strengthened my collagenous tissues (tunica, ligs, etc.). Again, this >underscores the importance of the time factor over force.

Agree. I don’t apply more force than necessary for maximum FSL when stretching briefly; before hanging and after every leak I take throughout the day.

>It has been shown that the use of heat along with stretching relaxes the collagen fibers and allows greater elongation. Besides influencing the >collagen, the increased temperature increases the sensitivity of the Golgi tendons aiding muscle relaxation. The temperature should be over 104 F.

>It makes sense that heat would “loosen things up,” so to speak.

I think Sunshine posted some notes on ~113 F allowing ~20% greater stretch than ~98 F. Interesting and appealing to common sense too, I would agree.

>Cooling the tissue is thought to allow the collagenous microstructure to restabilize more toward its new stretched length.

>I wonder if they mean the cooling should be applied while still in the stretch, or immediately after. I would think they mean during the stretch, after heat has been >used.

I would definitely think during the stretch; otherwise the ligs pull right back which is what we don’t want.
I’m not applying any cold yet, because I usually jelq et.c. after hanging. Things would be easier if we could very locally isolate the cold to the ligs but I guess that’s not how the body works, with or without some sort of syringe injection.

>Interestingly, they found that most of the stress relaxation took place within 12 to 18 seconds of stretch and there was insignificant relaxation >afterwards. They also found that in static stretching, 80 percent of the stretch occurred after the first four stretches and stretching afterwards >improved elongation very little.

>I find this last passage somewhat dubious. The experience of our hangers here would clearly refute that statement. I know that during my brief foray into hanging, >my unit seemed to relax long beyond that 18 seconds. Of course, they’re referring to studies of rabbit tendons. So, in theory, none of this shit may apply to human >males attempting to elongate their pisspipes.

I belive the point that should be made is simply that relaxation preceeds the fatigued stage.

Another longish post, sorry.
This is from http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/17/26/01.html .

***
Viscoelastic Behavior

Viscoelasticity is the time-dependent response of tissues to a load. If the stress placed on a ligament is within its elastic range, it is able to spring back after loading. The more elastic the collagen is, the better the ligament is at returning to its original length when a load stress is removed. When a ligament is loaded beyond its elastic range, it enters the plastic (viscous) range. Plasticity is the tendency of a material (or tissue) to permanently deform when the load goes beyond the elastic range.

The relative proportion of elasticity and plastic deformation varies with the stretching conditions, especially the amount and duration of applied force. A constant low load applied to soft tissues over a prolonged period demonstrates the phenomenon called creep. This is the steady deformation that occurs over a period of time. One example of this is the loss of an individual’s height, which occurs during the day due to temporary deformation of the spinal discs. When creep goes beyond the tissue’s elastic capability into its plastic range, permanent plastic deformation is the result.

***

Anyone interested in the myotatic reflex might like to look at this page:

http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/spinal.html

The information is about halfway down the page. It’s a little too long to paste here.

I assume the myotatic reflex might play a part in stretching the ligaments, since

” The Golgi tendon organs…begin to fire when the tension on the tendon is so great that you are in danger of injury. They have a protective function, and therefore they tell the muscle to ease off before it tears. “

…unless the ligaments attached to the penis are different to the ones attached to large muscles.
Just an idea. I don’t know anything about how the ligaments of the penis are made.

As an aside, this is a link to a page about Active, Isolated two-second stretches, designed to avoid kickback, used in massage therapy.

http://www.stretchme.com/private/writing1.htm

***

As for the shaft, it might be useful to find out exactly how tissues toughen up or weaken due to varying amounts of collagen and elastin. I think Tube wrote something about that.


"I just said it was big, honey. I never said it was pretty. "

- Me, a year from now.

Originally Posted by Yippee
The relative proportion of elasticity and plastic deformation varies with the stretching conditions, especially the amount and duration of applied force. A constant low load applied to soft tissues over a prolonged period demonstrates the phenomenon called creep. This is the steady deformation that occurs over a period of time. One example of this is the loss of an individual’s height, which occurs during the day due to temporary deformation of the spinal discs. When creep goes beyond the tissue’s elastic capability into its plastic range, permanent plastic deformation is the result.

Yippee, good stuff.

On nights after physically active days I’ve measure a loss of more than .5”.

Plastic deformation makes me think of fighter pilot’s permanent loss of an inch or so of body height after bailing out (with the catapult).

Quote
As an aside, this is a link to a page about Active, Isolated two-second stretches, designed to avoid kickback, used in massage therapy.

http://www.stretchme.com/private/writing1.htm

Credits to Johan for the JAI stretches.

Quote
As for the shaft, it might be useful to find out exactly how tissues toughen up or weaken due to varying amounts of collagen and elastin. I think Tube wrote something about that.

Blood Pressure vs Gains correlation


Last edited by Ideal : 04-02-2004 at .

Quote
The viscous properties allow permanent deformation and are considered time-dependent and rate change-dependent. The rate of deformation is directly proportional to the force applied.4 Stress relaxation and creep are examples of viscoelastic properties. Stress relaxation occurs if tissue is stretched to a fixed length tolerable to the patient; the tissue will relax and less force will be necessary for the tissue to remain at the same length. If the force is kept constant, the tissue will elongate due to the process known as creep. When viscoelastic tissue is stretched, the above properties allow plastic or permanent deformation.

If one was to hang 15lb then drop the weight by 1lb for each minute under tension, then is should be possible using the above statement to grow regardless cause the stress relaxation factor is coming into effect with each drop in weight cause the rate of force is still constant or at maximum tension.

Yet it states that the rate of deformation is proportional to the force applied. So hanging with 10lb should in theory allow for more deformation than if you hang with 5lb.

Ah, its too hot today….

Originally Posted by going4nine
If one was to hang 15lb then drop the weight by 1lb for each minute under tension, then is should be possible using the above statement to grow regardless cause the stress relaxation factor is coming into effect with each drop in weight cause the rate of force is still constant or at maximum tension.

Yet it states that the rate of deformation is proportional to the force applied. So hanging with 10lb should in theory allow for more deformation than if you hang with 5lb

I agree that force is a factor. Obviously, when we stretch we should not be pulling just a few ounces of tension. What I was trying to say is that, as a newbie, I pulled with nowhere near the force I later pulled with - yet my length gains stopped. While I realize that newbie gains are just that, if your force theory is correct, I should’ve at least equalled my early gains - if not surpassed them.

When I first began, I was cautious about pulling too hard because this was new to me and I didn’t realize what my unit could tolerate. I gained 0.9” EL in less than 4 months, pulling rather moderately. As I strived for that last 1.1” I wanted, I began pulling like hell. In the following 16 months, I’ve gained a measly 0.44” (half the gains in 4x the time period). Looking back, I pulled with less force for longer periods of time. Of course, when you pull like all hell (as if you’re trying to rip your weiner off), you necessarily cannot maintain that for long periods of time.

This is why I believe that time is more important than intensity, in terms of deformation. Those Penimaster things only pull at about 2 lbs force, maximum; but if worn for 8-12 hours per day, you can rack up some significant gains over a year or two. Again, even dedicated hangers log 10-20 hours per week with weights dangling from their dongs.

Hanging weights relies on creep to do the stretching and deforming. The times given above were for stress relaxation. Sort of apples and oranges - different approaches to accomplish the same thing.

An example of stress relaxation is using a stretcher that utilizes turnbuckles. If you attach and crank it out to a fixed length, the tissues will “relax” into that length and the tension will reduce. In other words, what feels like a good stretch at first won’t after the tissues relax. You’ll then be able to lengthen it some more to feel the same degree of stretch.

Check out this page advocating “static progressive stretching.” Here’s a post where I wondered how this technique would compare to our usual focus on creep. One of these days I’ll try it.

A quote from the page linked above (in case it moves again :) ):

Quote
Since a permanent increase in ROM is the goal of most treatments, therapy should be aimed at producing plastic deformation of the tissue. It has been shown that a low force accompanied with a slow, progressively increased stretch will produce plastic deformation at low peak loads.6,9,12 This can be obtained with either creep or stress relaxation. Creep, however, requires prolonged treatment times ranging from hours to days, and places the tissue under a state of constant stress. Faster stretching also supplies a greater chance for tissue tearing rather than stretching. 6,9,11 Therapy, therefore must be designed to achieve a slow, progressive stretch, with plastic deformation at low loads, while minimizing the chance for soft tissue injury. The optimal method to obtain plastic deformation appears to be SPS.

what about the way that the load factor is applied to the penis in the different methods of enlargment. Be it length or girth.

When someone plateaus, is it possible that this is the “plateau” is a direct result of what location one places the “constant” load point via clamping.
If one was to change the area of clamping, using the above techniques with lighter loads to accomodate the more sensitive areas of the penis, since you have changed the point of “constant load” you again experience growth because the “area” of enlargement is now moved?

This would explain for people who experience base girth from hanging and stall somewhat in the upper penis.

Would, for example, someone with a thick shaft and smaller glans benefit from “loading” the penis directly below the Glans with a hanger of choice, but hang weights of “proportional” poundage?

Would it be possible to hang the glans with say half a pound? maybe less but thats the general idea to experience growth?

Thanks for that post, Hobby. A search for stress relaxation / creep turned up this page:

http://www.engin.umich.edu/class/bm…gten/ligten.htm

About a quarter way down the page, under the ” Viscoelasticity ” heading , are a couple of graphs showing the rate of deformation due to both creep and stress relaxation.

For creep, the rate of deformation using a constant load increases over time.
The graph for stress relaxation shows less and less stress being needed to maintain a constant rate of deformation over time.

***

So, if I understand stress relaxation rightly ( please someone correct me if I don’t ) :

A low-intensity stretching session, maintained over a long enough period, will still stretch the tissues well since the tissues have a chance to ” catch up ” with their newly stretched state. Increasing the stretch in small increments - ie. just maintaining what feels like low-intensity stretching - also means less chance of ” tissue tearing rather than stretching ” - which I guess would lead to the tissues toughening as they heal ?


"I just said it was big, honey. I never said it was pretty. "

- Me, a year from now.

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