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Does PE help or worsen impotence (ED)?

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Does PE help or worsen impotence (ED)?

I found TP after looking for solutions to occasional ED. Part of my ED problem may be that I let a surgeon clip a branch of the ilioinguinal nerve during a hernia re-repair, leaving numbness in the pubic area—and occasionally beyond. I belatedly learned to ask lots of questions when it comes to messing with my personal plumbing. I’ve doing a newbie routine for over three weeks now (basic stretching and jelqing). Following others’ advice, I’ve also been taking low dosages of Cialis every 72 hours the past couple weeks. So while erections have been good for sex and PE lately, I don’t know whether to attribute that to initial exercises or the medication.

Regardless of whether my own ED is caused by neurological or circulatory impairment (probably both), I still have hesitations about jelqing. And beyond anecdotal evidence, I’m trying to research the physiology of how different PE routines can help or worsen ED.

ED from Arterial Plaque
The penis needs good blood supply to get hard. So having an expanded tunica from PE is of no use if there is insufficient arterial blood supply. Fatty plaque not only contributes to heart attacks, but to ED as well, by lessening the blood supply through penile arteries if they have plaque. In that sense, I agree with Avocet8’s assumption that regular jelqing/pumping might break up the “gunk” that possibly hinders blood flow. However, most medical discussions I’ve read talk about plaque in arteries, not veins. (See the following threads)
Need Input ASAP! PE skeptic Emailed me :(
I wish I could find a physiological explanation to disprove or substantiate this.

Damaging Venuoles
Think about it. One of the side effects of PE is enlargement of the superficial veins. While I agree with some guys that this is aesthetically pleasing, one wonders how PE–jelqing in particular–is affecting the deeper, post-cavernous venuoles. As I understand it, these “venuoles” are the “first line of defense,” responsible to retain blood inside the corpus cavernosum during an erection. (See “Intracorporal circulation” under the Boston University article on “Male Genital Anatomy” http://www.bumc.bu.edu/Dept/Content…epartmentid=371) It seems logical to me that while you might want larger arteries to carry blood into the penis, you don’t want to compromise the penis’ vein system which is needed to inducing and sustaining erections. Having larger vein structure leading from the corpus cavernosum does not necessarily mean that they are “compromised.” This is why it would be helpful to understand more of the exact physiology of venous leak. Some—not all—veins have valves. Is this true of post-cavernous venuoles? If so, does intense PE (jelqing in particular) damage these valves? If they don’t have valves, how can these venuoles be otherwise weakened or compromised? Or is my assumption incorrect—does the venous leak occur in the larger veins that the venuoles empty in to? See:
http://www.debakeydepartmentofsurge…&content_id=272

Stretching-Hanging.
I assume that stretching and hanging do not put damaging pressure on the interior walls of the post-cavernous venuoles or any valves, if there are any in the penis.

Pumping—Clamping
ED websites only discuss “vacuum erection devices” as a temporary solution when a restriction band is used with them; they never mention pumping as a therapy to permanently reverse ED. I have yet to try pumping, but it seems to me that (unless Avocet8’s urologist is correct), pumping focuses more on getting blood into the arteries and making them expand. What effect does the vacuum have on the venous system. Would pumping add undue stress to the venous system, or only when a cock ring or clamp is added to the routine? Some guys report that pumping and using a cock ring makes them dependent on both for a good, solid hardon. But is there physiological reasons to substantiate this? Does a cock ring make the veins “lazy?” What of pumping without using a cock ring?

Jelqing
If the venous structure is already compromised and “leaking,” it seems that the added pressure of jelqing on the venous system would only worsen the situation, though I have yet to find physiological research on this. If the arterial system is strengthened more than the venous system is weakened, then erections should still improve. But what routine would have this effect?

Physiology Behind the Anecdotes
I’ve read anecdotal evidence here at TP that PE increases erectile function and quality; there are also stories on this forum that PE can sabatoge erections. The complicating factor is that what may help one guy to get a hard on may make the next guy go limp, even if they’ve never struggled with ED. So what other threads/resources are there that deal with the physiology of PE and ED?

I want to thank Avocet8 for studying and addressing this issue, and sharing from his experience. Others of us would benefit from entering the discussion.

To answer your main question, PE can hurt or help your ED. If you overdo PE your ED won’t benefit, but doing the right amount will help…even cure your ED.

My $.02 about a couple things:

Originally Posted by Josh 14-11
Following others’ advice, I’ve also been taking low dosages of Cialis every 72 hours the past couple weeks. So while erections have been good for sex and PE lately, I don’t know whether to attribute that to initial exercises or the medication.

Why not stop doing one of these two things (eliminate a variable) and see if things change after a couple weeks?

Originally Posted by Josh 14-11
I still have hesitations about jelqing. And beyond anecdotal evidence, I’m trying to research the physiology of how different PE routines can help or worsen ED.

When you say you have questions, do you mean you wonder if it will help or hinder your ED? If so, here is my experience:

I used a pump primarily for over 6 months with only the lightest jelqing between sets. Then I hit a plataeu (I think) in terms of gains, and wanted to try a new approach. I decided to focus on Jelqing, aiming for girth, with other things built arounf this. BUT I WAS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT INJURING MY PENIS.

I read experiences here (blood from penis after jelq, for instance) and descriptions (pulling/squeezing as hard as I can) and occassionally horror stories (numbness, skin dull greyish color around head) that may me to resolve to be VERY CAREFULL. (Note, these anecdotes above are the exception, I don’t want scare anyone!)

I started off very lightly 6 months ago, 3-4 minutes a day, 2 out of three days. I am STILL doing only ten minutes a day! But now I squeeze harder, and jelq with a more erect penis. (80% erect for last two minutes.) For the first
few weeks, I hardly squuezed at all. I was very paranoid and very carefull.

I have seen some results, in terms of size, and erection quality. So I see no need to rush… treading lightly is key, me thinks. As xlmagnum says, if you do it too aggressively, you may do harm. (Like EVERYTHING, moderation is key.) But if you do it sensibly, either it will have no impact or the impact will be positive. (Which is to say, you have nothing to lose.)

I hope this helps,
Cdr.Blop


My Before and After pics -- .5" gain...


Last edited by commanderblop : 08-25-2005 at .

Originally Posted by Josh 14-11

ED from Venous Leak
But what if ED is caused by “venous leak?” Venous leak (a.k.a “venous leakage”) is when there is enough blood supplied by the arteries, but the veins are allowing too much blood to leak out, making pressure of blood inside the tunica insufficient for a good, hard erection. How would various PE routines help or worsen the loss of penile blood during an erection? Elsewhere, Avocet8 has summarized his urologist’s opinion: that PE not only cannot correct venous leak, but might even worsen it.
Destroying Barriers - Maxing out, the ultimate in pumping.
I wish I could find a physiological explanation to disprove or substantiate this.

Josh raises many interesting questions and I will try to tackle this one first.

The context of the above-linked thread is very important. The thread-starter was promoting an extreme form of PE, very long time periods in the tube and that this made for a more efficient vascular system. In response to that notion, I said this:

“Regular pumping definitely can ‘remodel’ a penile vascular system that is compromised - arterial insufficiency. Can it correct venous leakage though? I don’t know, and my urologist who knows a lot about this would certainly disagree. He believes that very frequent and excessively long in duration erections actually encourage the worsening of venous leakage and may even cause it.”

First it should be said that my uro was not referring to PE, rather to erections which are self-induced with erectile drug overdosing and approach the level of priapism, or become an event of priapism. (It was I who made the association to extreme pumping, which creates the same sorts of long-time stress, although the erection will subside once the vacuum has stopped.) The vascular pressure of these long events can be severe and, if one did go into a real priapism the cure (usually blood draining) is both “messy”, using his word, and potentially damaging in itself.

He does recommend pumping for ED, but not the kind of excessive pumping being talked about in the referenced thread. He feels that vacuum pumping along the lines of Pumping 101 can improve a compromised penile vascular system and has suggested I keep doing it because the evidence is from his analysis that my (non-pumped) erections now are much stronger and more lasting than they were previously. Pumping, combined with the erectile drugs I use and how I use them, he says, have made my arterial flow in strong enough to overcome the venous flow out and that the tie-off procedure we had talked about previously would be a waste of time and money now.


_______________

avocet8

“Damaging Venuoles
Think about it. One of the side effects of PE is enlargement of the superficial veins. While I agree with some guys that this is aesthetically pleasing, one wonders how PE–jelqing in particular–is affecting the deeper, post-cavernous venuoles. As I understand it, these “venuoles” are the “first line of defense,” responsible to retain blood inside the corpus cavernosum during an erection. (See “Intracorporal circulation” under the Boston University article on “Male Genital Anatomy” http://www.bumc.bu.edu/Dept/Content…epartmentid=371) It seems logical to me that while you might want larger arteries to carry blood into the penis, you don’t want to compromise the penis’ vein system which is needed to inducing and sustaining erections…”

A little clarification here? Maybe I am reading this wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that there is a tie-in between the “venuoles” and the supposed valves which prevent venous back flow. So far as I know, Westla settled the backflow valve issue long ago by showing that there are none in the penis? I haven’t time to look that up here but maybe you read that post, or he can chime in.


_______________

avocet8

Just a quick note on the superficial/out take venis.

I have often thought that their growth may well be indication of even more growth on the deeper/intake arteries. I mean, if the interior flow is increasing, it makes sense that the exterior veins would have to grow correspondingly, right?

Just a thought. And here is a disclaimer: I am not even 1/100th as knowledgable as Avocet regarding techinical issues like this.

Cdr.Blop


My Before and After pics -- .5" gain...

Originally Posted by avocet8
…my uro was not referring to PE, rather to erections which are self-induced with erectile drug overdosing and approach the level of priapism, or become an event of priapism. …
He does recommend pumping for ED … along the lines of Pumping 101 [which] can improve a compromised penile vascular system and has suggested I keep doing it because the evidence is from his analysis that my (non-pumped) erections now are much stronger and more lasting than they were previously. Pumping, combined with the erectile drugs I use and how I use them, he says, have made my arterial flow in strong enough to overcome the venous flow out and that the tie-off procedure we had talked about previously would be a waste of time and money now.

Thanks for the clarification; I take it that the “tie-off procedure” was a venous litigation. Glad you didn’t have to to that!

Originally Posted by avocet8
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that there is a tie-in between the “venuoles” and the supposed valves which prevent venous back flow. So far as I know, Westla settled the backflow valve issue long ago by showing that there are none in the penis? I haven’t time to look that up here but maybe you read that post, or he can chime in.

No, I’m not suggesting that there are “valves.” Nor did I find the posting by Westla, but I did find a very relevant thread urologist talks about PE. The guys here at TP were doing better homework than the MD that started the thread! One of the posts there included a URL for some of the best cross-section diagrams of the penis, http://www.peyronies.org/pages/mechanics.html. Another post has a URL to the Merck Manual that clearly states that the penile veins have no valves. http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmg/…h115/ch115b.jsp

However, I’m still unclear as to the physiology of “venous leakage.” If I fully understood that, maybe I could figure out how PE (especially jelqing) helps or hinders, causes or doesn’t cause a venous leak problem.
I’m just speculating here, but maybe they call it “venous leak” even though the veins themselves are not the problem… they just happen to be the blood vessels that carry the outflowing blood. The aforementioned Merck article says, “Arterial insufficiency, excessive venous outflow, or both can affect sexual function [i.e., erections].” But can one even talk about “excessive venous outflow” unless it is in comparison to the arterial inflow? In other words, the “venous outflow” is never too much if the arterial inflow is exceeding it. Hence the explanation your urologist gave for your improved erections. Am I overstating it to say that “venous outflow” only becomes “venous leak” when there is corresponding “arterial insufficiency?” The Merck article does go on to say that “Venous leakage (excessive venous outflow due to inadequate compression of the venous drainage of the corpora cavernosa) also is common with aging.” They don’t describe how “aging” affects “compression,” but if there’s sufficient arterial blood supply, there should be adequate compression within the tunica. Unless there’s a Peyronie’s problem, or a kink (which I happen to have). Even then, we know guys with a kink or even full-blown Peyronie’s may not have a “venous leak” problem until penile arteriosclerosis or other gunk starts to accumulate—and the arterial inflow is cut back.

Cdr Blop, xl, & Slack:

Thanks for the encouragement to move ahead, but sensibly. I still have questions about physiology, so if you have any other thoughts about anatomy-physiology, or can refer me to threads or URL’s I’m missing, let me know. Or if you see anything faulty in my reasoning, let me know.

Originally Posted by commanderblop
Just a quick note on the superficial/out take venis.

I have often thought that their growth may well be indication of even more growth on the deeper/intake arteries. I mean, if the interior flow is increasing, it makes sense that the exterior veins would have to grow correspondingly, right?
Cdr.Blop

Yes, that corresponds to the feedback Avocet8 got from his urologist about PE improving his erections.

And while I started out here looking for some ED relief, it’s comparative pics like yours, Cdr Blop, that encourages me to pursue some added length and girth.

I know PE worsended my erections. I dont get rock hard morning wood anymore. It takes a good bit of physical stimulation to get rock hard, and when I am hard my glands dont fill up and my CS is flat too.

Thanks for the tip!

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
Sorry, wrong link in my post above. Let’s try it again:

Penis Anatomy Links

Wow… a whole new source to mine! (As well as the “Other Links” under “Other Forums.”) Sure, I’d be glad to make a few posts there. There’s some website resources I’ve saved over the past few years. I’ll also double check to see if any links that I’ve spotted in the Members Forum could be cross referenced over to the thread you’ve mentioned.

Originally Posted by TheFranchise
I know PE worsended my erections. I dont get rock hard morning wood anymore. It takes a good bit of physical stimulation to get rock hard, and when I am hard my glands dont fill up and my CS is flat too.

Hi, Franchise…
Thanks for your input. I feel for you; ED—even if partial or occasional—can be a real bummer. I scanned some of your previous posts. I know you don’t like guys telling you that your routine may have been too intense. And I’m just a newbie at PE myself. But I was a bit surprised at how long you were clamping there for a while. Have you tried signing up for a mentor? Or, if you find some vet here who’s been doing the same routines you’re into (e.g., clamping and pumping), maybe you could ask them about whatever routine your using. I suspect you’ve looked at ED sights on the web. As you know, there’s a lot of different factors that could be causing these problems. The more experienced guys here are very willing to point you toward some other things to consider or modify, and several of them originally started PE because of ED problems. Use the search engine and you should be able to track them down. Look for the “wisdom from the vets” thread and you’ll see what I mean.

Have you been to a urologist? If you really think you’ve damaged yourself, maybe you should have it checked out. Just my thoughts on the subject.

One last thing. Avocet8 started a thread on ED websites:
Erectile Dysfunction (ED) Sites

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