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Clamping: Advanced Empirical Discussion

Originally Posted by ThunderSS
What is the meaning of life?

Good question.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
I don’t like jelqing because I don’t like my PE to restrict other things. People who jelq could do that. This is one of the major advantages, for me, in clamping.

I’ve been researching cialis since Beretta suggested it. I will probably be taking it consistently since I actually do get lower erections due to my other drug. I am meeting with the doc tomorrow actually.

Even if it is not restricting blood flow, it is causing my penis to be in an enlarged state continually. I am telling you guys this, but try it yourselves. I am 100% sure it is working incredibly on me, so if BG’s theory is true, and not restrictive (as in it has to be in a state larger than EG normally is), then this should produce gains.

Coupled with cialis, on a person not suffering from drug induced ED, this would be worth testing. It might have codependent effects if coupled with clamping due to post-clamp engorgement, although I realize the fluid is different there.

Myself and many others agree Cialis is great for PE, especially if you don’t have a serious underlying medical ED problem. Many people take suppliments, L-arganine, etc. Cialis is no more or less dangerous than many of the suppliments on the market. Actually I think the side effects of taking large doses of L-arg are worse than Cialis. Once your body is used to Cialis, there are no side effects. Especially once you get your dosage in the “sweet zone”. The absolute minimum it takes in order to get benefits. For me it seems to be about 10mg every other day.

Look at it like a very modest form of “chemical PE”. Anything that aids in attaining an erection faster, and one of a better quality, is only going to help overall expansion, and in theory speed gains. It greatly helps you keep an erection longer also. Another benefit is the greatly increased night and morning wood. In my case, I can’t prove it for certain, but I believe using Cialis for the past year of PE has likely given me 25% more gains than I would have attained without using it.

I have taken breaks from the Cialis during the two de-con breaks I have taken over the past year. These breaks were approximately 2 weeks long each. During those times, my EQ was as good or even a little better than when I was not taking the Cialis. In the absense of PE fatigue, the EQ does improve even without the aid of Cialis. Another point I’m trying to make by this, is not to worry about becoming “dependent” on Cialis.

If it can only be of help in PE and overall EQ, has minimal to no medical risks, it is a no-brainer. Just make sure it does not contradict any other prescription medications being taken, and that there are no heart problems or high blood pressure.

Oh, one more thing. LV- Don’t be surprised if your doctor frowns upon your proposed use of Cialis. He will likely not give you his blessing to use it for PE reasons, or to use recreationally. That’s just standard MD response… Make sure you simply get the medical green light to use it is you so choose, whether or not the doc’s opinion is you need it. You could always exaggerate your EQ/ED in order to get his unbiased approval. you could always tell him your other med is killing your EQ and you need it because of that. Also, don’t expect the doc to give you his blessing to order powder or liquid from abroad. Non FDA approved meds will get your doc to argue with you, it would be a good idea to not tell him that part. Don’t worry though, the sources Webslave has assembled are safe and reputable, no worries about quality or safety there. I actually order mine from a US source, they are in Wisconsin and ship quick and easy. Good luck man!


Last edited by Beretta92 : 07-16-2009 at .

Originally Posted by Beretta92
Myself and many others agree Cialis is great for PE, especially if you don’t have a serious underlying medical ED problem. Many people take suppliments, L-arganine, etc. Cialis is no more or less dangerous than many of the suppliments on the market. Actually I think the side effects of taking large doses of L-arg are worse than Cialis. Once your body is used to Cialis, there are no side effects. Especially once you get your dosage in the “sweet zone”. The absolute minimum it takes in order to get benefits. For me it seems to be about 10mg every other day.

Look at it like a very modest form of “chemical PE”. Anything that aids in attaining an erection faster, and one of a better quality, is only going to help overall expansion, and in theory speed gains. It greatly helps you keep an erection longer also. Another benefit is the greatly increased night and morning wood. In my case, I can’t prove it for certain, but I believe using Cialis for the past year of PE has likely given me 25% more gains than I would have attained without using it.

I have taken breaks from the Cialis during the two de-con breaks I have taken over the past year. These breaks were approximately 2 weeks long each. During those times, my EQ was as good or even a little better than when I was not taking the Cialis. In the absense of PE fatigue, the EQ does improve even without the aid of Cialis. Another point I’m trying to make by this, is not to worry about becoming “dependent” on Cialis.

If it can only be of help in PE and overall EQ, has minimal to no medical risks, it is a no-brainer. Just make sure it does not contradict any other prescription medications being taken, and that there are no heart problems or high blood pressure.

Oh, one more thing. LV- Don’t be surprised if your doctor frowns upon your proposed use of Cialis. He will likely not give you his blessing to use it for PE reasons, or to use recreationally. That’s just standard MD response… Make sure you simply get the medical green light to use it is you so choose, whether or not the doc’s opinion is you need it. You could always exaggerate your EQ/ED in order to get his unbiased approval. you could always tell him your other med is killing your EQ and you need it because of that. Also, don’t expect the doc to give you his blessing to order powder or liquid from abroad. Non FDA approved meds will get your doc to argue with you, it would be a good idea to not tell him that part. Don’t worry though, the sources Webslave has assembled are safe and reputable, no worries about quality or safety there. I actually order mine from a US source, they are in Wisconsin and ship quick and easy. Good luck man!

Good post Beretta. I actually figured most of this out through reading the very long threads here - but this is a great summary. I am just suspicious that generic cialis (keep forgetting the actual compounds’ name) + EVO + clamping is going to provide some gains on the downtime when not clamping, and possibly some codependent gains. This would be very interesting if it occurs.

I don’t put much faith in MD’s. MD’s have killed more people than they have saved, due to their ridiculous unchallenged “authority aura” and the fact that they often are pretty stupid in a lot of things (statistics, primarily). If anyone is interested, I believed Nicholas Taleb has been writing about them recently (author of “The Black Swan” and “Fooled By Randomness”). I hate people who project an aura of certainty because it gives them full power over what they do. And they act very certain about things in an uncertain world. I’m surprised we have so much respect for them here, given that most don’t believe PE works (WTF?). A wise man knows how much he doesn’t know…doctors are rarely wise by that definition.

Anyway, I’m off to the doctor now. I dealt with the Cialis thing that we discussed through PM Beretta, should be delivered in a week I think.

Final update: I have decided to start pumping. I am not sure when though…I might order the equipment tonight. It’s time to get this PE thing really going: clamping, EVO, generic Cialis, and light pumping. You know what’s funny? I am most impressed by the EVO in that stack. Check it out guys!

Also, ridiculously funny post ThunderSS.

Back from the doctor’s. So basically he repeated what I already knew: that combining a stimulant with Tadafil (the active ingredient in Cialis), which is a PDE5 inhibitor, could be dangerous because both of them affect the cardiovascular system. People have died from heart attacks on both drugs. Given that, he advised me not to start “chasing side effects,” but stated that this risk is obviously minimal since I thankfully don’t have a heart condition. I already knew this, and had decided that I would need to lose weight (muscle specifically) and begin doing cardiovascular exercise as I expect this will be a long-term procedure (the Tadafil + stimulant). I will need to make it easy on my cardiovascular system, and I believe I can do that God willing.

Now, back to more interesting things. I was unable to sleep last night and ended up spending a lot of time reading about pumping and considering it. I also PM’ed a vet in an attempt to figure it out more. I read three particularly superb threads. I warn you however, the issue of permanence of gains is not settled. I thought it was, but it is a shady issue. Some people believe it can be made permanent, some believe it requires other exercises used in conjunction, and some totally believe it can’t. Wadzilla’s posts, from the dissenters, were the most harmful I think (Dr. Kaplan thread). Below are links to the threads for anyone interested:

My buddy Dr Kaplan

Vacuum Pumping 101

Condom pumping

My initial pumping in conjunction with clamping post will follow next (with a break to make this easier to read). Beretta, I will have some questions for you!

Again, returning to marinera’s insightful discussions, marinera and I agreed that there is some potential to smooth the volatility of gains through adding more exercises to a routine (basically - but we don’t have that many to deal with). I was previously actively researching pumping because it is the only other PE exercise which can promote girth gains from a unique fatiguing method. Girth gains from jelqing seem to be the same as clamping in their incentive for growth, they are just less extreme, far less quantifiable, and take more time, so adding jelqing is pretty much useless here for experienced clampers (except to induce blood flow after a set obviously). We are left with pumping.

After all the research I did, I believe that it can cause permanent gains on people independent of other PE exercises. Avocet & Peforeal are the vets in this field, I plan be PM’ing them shortly to ask some specific questions (and any useful info back here God willing). As a mathematically inclined person, one of my main ways of looking at things are in terms of quantifying change. I can see that clamping causes growth. I can see that pumping causes growth. If we create a regression, we could regress Y = growth on X = clamping time, sets, etc. or X = pumping time, sets, etc. and we would find some correlation. We can call that correlation the effect the independent variables, ie our exercises, have on our dependent variable, ie growth. However, as naturally occurs in the real world, there is often a correlation between two independent variables and the dependent variable, such that X1 and X2 used together create more of an increase in Y taken independently. There is also a chance that there is an effect between the independent variables, so that regressing X1 on X2 will give us some correlation (say the amount of clamping TUC you can do after pumping). Briefly:

1. Clamping may have an effect on growth.

2. Pumping may have an effect on growth.

3. The effect on growth may be larger if both clamping and pumping are used simultaneously than the effect of using them individually (due to interdependent effects explained next).

(a) Interdependent effect one: The effects of clamping on growth allow more growth from pumping, or vice versa. Y, growth, is actually changed because of X1 or X2, making it more susceptible to change from the other variable.
(b) Interdependent effect two: The effects of clamping on pumping allow more change in Y, or the effects of pumping on clamping, allow more change in Y. As in, pumping may make clamping on its own more productive (imagine BG’s idea - engorgement, it may be more engorged), or/and vice versa.

Realistically, there is also a fourth matter to consider, which was mentioned briefly at the opening of the post. Pumping may be used to constraint gains and minimize fatigues of any one kind, so that including pumping and minimizing sets of clamping might cause less clamping fatigue, and little pumping fatigue, yielding possibly the same growth pattern but with less risk of over-fatigue which would necessitate a break, therefore stalling gains (marinera agreed that the break’s and basically due to over-fatigue). This is an attempt to make gains as continuous in nature as possible, not make them discrete as is another idea.

Now, pumping has a lot of theory to it. Wadzilla and sparkyx have posted prolifically on this on several threads, and I commend both of them (excellent posts) for that. To me, the theory is not relevant as of yet, since it is not empirically verifiable and therefore can’t yield to better models for me to work with. But, if this does work out and we can develop some working theory and test it, their work would be heavily useful. For now though, I’m not interested in medical reasons for growth of pumping or in proving if it works or not empirically - I’ll try to leave that alone and just work empirically for now (through experience).

Okay, the purpose of the last post was really just to get everything lined out. In reality, there may be some biological factor that seperates pumping and clamping’s effects such that the whole effect is just the sum of its parts. I’d like to find that out. The reason I am so curious is because I really would like to reach a very large girth. If I just needed to gain an inch or two then it might not be worth the time to test all this stuff out - just go by what is tried and true. But, since I estimate I will need at least two years of work to get to my goals, this time would be well spent I think. So now that we have the possible research angles laid out, I’ll talk in terms of my practical considerations.

Pumping is a very big problem. It takes time, money, privacy - a lot that clamping doesn’t necessitate. Therefore, I am somewhat unable to do it continuously. I expect that after approximately 4 weeks I will be able to begin, for about 4-5 months. Then, I may be cut off from clamping for approximately 8 months. After speaking to a knowledgeable member here, I figured that pumping could produce independent gains within 4-5 months on its own. Adding pumping to it, if there are interdependent effects, makes it worth the try.

Issues:

1. Condom or no condom? I haven’t seen any new pumpers start with a condom and continue for long enough to prove that gains are similar to non-condom pumping, so I am unsure about this one. Might go with no condom.

2. Sets, pressure, and time per day.

3. Interaction with clamping: Should pumping be done at night, where it will affect clamping sessions (mid-day mostly) less? Should it be done in the morning, so that it will affect clamping more? Do I want to have a post-clamp penis while pumping or do I want a post-pump penis while clamping? This is the biggest question, and the one that right now only Beretta can help us with. The biggest pumping guys don’t clamp and don’t know much about this (there is one old thread on the combination but it isn’t that useful).

4. Clamp for length or girth? Since I do no length work, it’s scary that I might achieve my girth gains and then never be able to lengthen my penis, so this makes a length a concern. However, if there are independent effects, it would be most visible pumping for girth. Since pumping will remain the most minor part of the routine, I could go with either with little concern, however, I want to stick to my goals and do girth instead.

My Plan:

I want to basically make pumping a very minimal part of my routine. I do not want to remove 1 clamping set to insert a pumping set. I’m hoping the fatigue will be completely different and I will be able to do both with the current volume of clamping (I’ve reached 4x18 on most days). However, if this is not possible (if fatigue seems to be additive), I will only give up 1 clamping set - I’m unwilling to lose more than that because of how shady pumping is, haha - risk-aversion.

I await Beretta’s detailed reply on his beliefs and experiences about pumping before vs. after clamping. He mentioned them earlier, but I do not completely understand, and given that this is not the direction the thread is at, a longer post may be called for. Beretta - I thank you in advance and will likely follow your recommendation. Any others that care to chime in are welcome.

As for condom/sets/pressure/time, I will rely on the advice received from PM’s and intend to update the thread as time progresses. I also intend to purchase a pumping device today. I wonder if I can use EVO as lube. EVO has become very dear to my heart and I would hate to miss a second using it when not clamped =).

K.i.s.s., Lv :) .

Originally Posted by marinera
K.i.s.s., Lv :) .

Unnecessary complexity…I don’t think so. Some of it is anecdotal and simply excitement, but the major parts are for later reference. Hopefully in a few months I’ll be able to comment more on what I just posted.

It would be nice if there were more experienced clampers around willing to try this out. I need some company, haha.

You need to try pumping. Thereafter, things will be a little clearer, I think.

Anyway, the advice was mostly reffering to your posting style. Write in the most simple way possible and more members will read your thread. ;)

Originally Posted by marinera
You need to try pumping. Thereafter, things will be a little clearer, I think.

Anyway, the advice was mostly reffering to your posting style. Write in the most simple way possible and more members will read your thread. ;)

I will try to do so. It’s really not intentional…I think it’s word choice that’s the problem. Anyhow, hopefully I’ll gain enough that they will feel a need to read the thread.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
I will try to do so. It’s really not intentional…I think it’s word choice that’s the problem. Anyhow, hopefully I’ll gain enough that they will feel a need to read the thread.

I don’t have any degree in science but I enjoy the methods and protocols of it and it’s ability to work through just about anything I give it. I also enjoy finding the most precise words to write with when presenting an idea or thought. I’ve read your thread from this standpoint and I don’t see you coming off as pompous for using big words, rather I think you kept the larger and essential words to a minimum to signify their importance.

Sometimes, I think you may have appeared crude because you speak in a very matter of factual “getting straight to the truth” sort of way. But I had to look really hard to see anything at all.

Those are my observations on that matter. I enjoy reading your posts. Keep it up.

Note: I’d give you specific examples but I read this thread a few days ago and don’t really have time to go back and find specific portions at the moment.


Size is little more than a controllable perception without an accurate means of measurement.

Since you asked me my opinion on this, LV, and repeating again that I haven’t a huge experience with nor pumping neither clamping, I’ll say this: the point to me seems : in what pumping differs from clamping? My thought is they differ just in that - clamping pulls from the inside, pumping from the outside of the penis. I can’t explain better than that, but anyway some smart fellows wrote a lot about that in another thread, so anyone interested could give a read to that.

Girth theory: Pumping vs. clamping

So, my personal opinion is that pumping is just less intense than clamping; adding pumping to clamping is like doing a lighter set after an heavy set in weight training, using again this analogy. Pumping creates less lack of oxygenation, also.

I think if one has clamped for a respectable amount of time, his penis will be so strong that it’s unlikely that pumping is going to work. The reverse would be a better idea: first pumping, then clamping; but not in the same day, in different cycles - six months pumping, three months clamping, then deconditioning or switching to length work.

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