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Clamping: Advanced Empirical Discussion

marinera,

Your post about the discreteness of gains has got me thinking. Previously, I was trying to make my fatigue as continuous as possible - thereby not necessitating even a single day of breaks, by never over-fatiguing past what one night’s rest could fix.

Maybe trying to “go with the flow” of discreteness might help. Instead of fighting the discrete nature of PE gains, we could fatigue in a discrete nature, purposely. This goes against Kaan’s advice (he specifically said the reason he gained from clamping was due to the intensity done for at least two weeks daily).

I am thinking of something like this, done at my current preference level of TUC (18 minutes):

Day 1: After total rest (starting with no fatigue), over fatigue. If 2x18 is the normal number of clamped sets that I can get through with no left over fatigue the next day, then I do around 5.
Day 2: Less sets than the previous day, but still an over fatigue. Assuming 2 sets are the norm, I do 4 here - spread out across the day.
Day 3: Less but still over - 3 spread out across the day.
Day 4: Heal.
Day 5: Heal…add more days until fatigue is completely gone. Repeat.

I don’t just mean in terms of PE fatigue. I’m also thinking that on days 1-3 the subject should try to oversleep, 9+ hours. On the final day, the subject should try to sleep around 12 hours (this speeds up recovery in my experience). On all the days EVO is used excessively and slept in. The point is to increase the rate of healing during the days so that more sets can be used everyday, however, the sets will decrease marginally due to stored fatigue obviously.

So this way we sort of carry fatigue over the days, and then break and recover. If there is any point to carrying fatigue, and working in a discrete manner, then this would use it as the focal point of the routine. Obviously the days under fatigue could be changed. We could lessen the fatigue per day and increase the days, to a week, or two weeks as Kaan did, but the point remaining that we are trying to increase healing, carry fatigue every day, and then break to recover, repeatedly.

I sort of tried this on myself before and felt that it wasn’t helpful. However, I overdid it (to the point where it was hard to get an erection). Maybe doing something this could be helpful if we can measure over time (say a month of this?).

Thoughts?

P.S. This is more about the healing process and use of fatigue than it is the cause of gains, which I know is what you’re interested. But your discussion of the discrete nature of gains is what motivated it.

Another thing about fatigue and gains… (excuse my bodybuilding references, we are not dealing with the same tissue and this might not apply but it is still food for thought I think)

A lot of bodybuilders work around a “pump.” If you imagine positive PI’s as a pump, you’ll realize that we do a similar thing. A pump in bodybuilding is basically a pump where the muscles are filled with blood during a workout - they usually necessitate more volume per bodypart to get, but often don’t yield ideal results (easily debatable, but consider DC and HIT training in comparison). Other bodybuilders feel that more intense training (less volume with heavier weights) or more frequent training (more days per bodypart per week with less volume per day) yield better real gains, despite never getting proper pumps (no positive PI’s, but unlike in PE, no negative ones either).

Gets you thinking about how much you can *feel* growth occurring. I am beginning to distrust my feeling actually. Out of all the sudden gains made by members, how many specifically felt that they were going to gain then (felt the pump, or heavy positive PI’s) in comparison to when they didn’t feel that? I bet they couldn’t really point out a feeling over growth accurately to the times they grew. I don’t think we can real feel if its working or not…this focus on feeling might only be relevant in order to avoid injury.

Originally Posted by LongVehicle
marinera,

Your post about the discreteness of gains has got me thinking. Previously, I was trying to make my fatigue as continuous as possible - thereby not necessitating even a single day of breaks, by never over-fatiguing past what one night’s rest could fix.

Maybe trying to “go with the flow” of discreteness might help. Instead of fighting the discrete nature of PE gains, we could fatigue in a discrete nature, purposely. …..

Different things at different levels: that’s could be good for an advanced PEer (say 2-3 years of consistent PE work). It’s not a good idea for a newbie or an intermediate. I think most of gains can be obtained through steady and consistent work.

This idea resembles, again, what is done in athletic training, where advanced athletes work on ‘blocks’ of volume and intensity : 2-4 weeks with an amount of intensity AND volume on the border line of overtraining/injuries, than 1-2 weeks where the volume is cut to no more than 40% of previous weeks and intensity is still high; than again 1 week of near total rest (restoring work).

Originally Posted by marinera
Different things at different levels: that’s could be good for an advanced PEer (say 2-3 years of consistent PE work). It’s not a good idea for a newbie or an intermediate. I think most of gains can be obtained through steady and consistent work.

This idea resembles, again, what is done in athletic training, where advanced athletes work on ‘blocks’ of volume and intensity : 2-4 weeks with an amount of intensity AND volume on the border line of overtraining/injuries, than 1-2 weeks where the volume is cut to no more than 40% of previous weeks and intensity is still high; than again 1 week of near total rest (restoring work).

marinera’s post reminds us that this thread is called “ADVANCED”. Nothing in this thread is for beginning PE’ers or even beginning clampers. Aside from maybe EVO, which great :) .

Yeah, some people do that as we discussed earlier. Have you ever tried this?

I honestly began with it yesterday. I had no real results from it before, and it would take a couple of months to compare it to trying to make fatigue continuous, I’m not sure if I want to risk those 2 months of possible growth for either better or worse growth.

Never tried really because I’m enough lazy as far as PE work goes. When I’ve seen something start to work, generally I become less interested. :)

This kind of work has the goal of accumulating fatigue, rigth? So, what one should expect, even when advanced, is bad EQ and, generally, worse PI’s for some week. It’s the idea in itself. To give an idea of what we are speaking of, here is attached a pic that should explain the concept.

And this is how the process is explained:

According to Siff, (1) “If subsequent loading is imposed too soon during the recovery stage, then

supercompensation fails to occur and performance continues to decrease.” If recovery is not adequate (does

not return to initial baseline pre workout), the athlete runs the risk of returning to below the baseline level.

This is where the effects of overtraining begin to appear. The athlete keeps reducing the pre workout initial

baseline until performance deterioration, injury, fatigue, or other symptoms of overtraining begin to appear.

To avoid this, Autoregulatory training methods are used. This teaches athletes to listen to their bodies and rest

and train accordingly. For this reason, SuperUPZ does not require athletes follow a strict “days per week”

regimen. Instead, the program is designed to rest when needed, and perform the next biomechanically similar

workout after supercompensation has occurred, and performance potential for the next workout will be at its

peak.

The opposite scenario is when the athlete’s workouts are too easy, rest is too long, and they achieve the

exact opposite of overtraining, under-training. In graph I, the top dotted line shows the effects of an easy

workout. There is a minimal rate of fatigue induced during the workout, leading to a recovery just above the

initial baseline.

http://www.apec-s.com/Fatigue,%20re…pensation. pdf

Now, what happens is that advanced athletes needs a constant work, but also periods of super-work, with higher volume and intensity when compared in percentage to less experienced athletes, and longer period of rest. This is what we are speaking right now. If one hasn’t a lot of experience AND the ablity to ‘feel’ his body, this kind of approach is not only counter productive, but also dangerous.

Attached Images
supercomp.png
(6.8 KB, 31 views)

Originally Posted by marinera
……….
This kind of work has the goal of accumulating fatigue, rigth? So, what one should expect, even when advanced, is bad EQ and, generally, worse PI’s for some week. It’s the idea in itself. To give an idea of what we are speaking of, here is attached a pic that should explain the concept.
……..
Now, what happens is that advanced athletes needs a constant work, but also periods of super-work, with higher volume and intensity when compared in percentage to less experienced athletes, and longer period of rest. This is what we are speaking right now. If one hasn’t a lot of experience AND the ablity to ‘feel’ his body, this kind of approach is not only counter productive, but also dangerous.


How do we know its counter productive?

Remember, we discovered in our discussion in another thread that we can’t really compare penis growth with other sorts of growth. At least not in terms of girth… we don’t really know if its counter productive.

By the way, what do you think of BG’s post about simply growth occurring due to engorgement?

EDIT: If anyone hasn’t reading marinera’s recent posts in the Loading, Lengthening and Healing thread check them out. I tried to get him to write a synopsis under one post her but he is busy, and I am much too lazy.


Last edited by LongVehicle : 07-15-2009 at .

We know it’s counterproductive in athletic training, if the athlete is not advanced. :)

When transferred to PE, I think the dangerousity of this approach is self-evident, if we are speaking of girth. What gives doing high intensity girth work X long time, if one is a newbie/intermediate?

The real question, to me, is another: can we trace a paralel of athletic/strength training in PE? This is about the same thing as asking : “A ‘less is more’ of guy, could become after years of PE training, a ‘more is more’ kind of guy?”. I asked an opinion to Sparkyx, for example, he answered he believed this is unlikely. Since we can’t do experiments, thoughts of experienced and intuitive guys have a weigh, so put the Sparkyx’ opinion into the basket.

Growth occurring by engorgement? I’m not sure I understand what this means precisely. Maybe ‘engorgement’ = ‘pressure from the inside’? Maybe B-G will like to explain better.

Another idea from some of marinera’s posts:

So marinera and several other members have been suspicious that we may be able to make EG gains through clamping at lower constriction levels for longer periods of time. If this did cause gains, then the gains could be because of BG’s opinion (engorgement creates gains) or because of marinera’s causal theory (low oxygen)…

I have decided there is a way to do this throughout the day without the danger a clamp brings in. EVO has really increased my flaccid girth size consistently (while I am using it). I woke up this morning with about a 6 inch flaccid girth, and I am not even sure my EG is that large. Unfortunately, I have to take certain medication that reduces bloodflow to the penis for about 12 hours per day, so I may not be the ideal candidate here.

But, my idea was a combination of all day EVO application (repetitively as often as possible, then covered with an ankle length sock - ankle part on the balls, it fits perfectly) and cialis or some other medication with the same effect. Those medications apparently increase flaccid girth on many people, and I know I have see a consistent increase in daily flaccid girth through EVO, so this could be a way to maximize daily flaccid girth without the clamp.

If the one of the causality theories is true, this could produce girth gains on its own. Combined with clamping in a normal manner, we might maximize gains without getting fatigue from the other exercise (EVO & cialis), thereby maximizing gains while constraining fatigue.

Originally Posted by marinera
We know it’s counterproductive in athletic training, if the athlete is not advanced. :)

When transferred to PE, I think the dangerousity of this approach is self-evident, if we are speaking of girth. What gives doing high intensity girth work X long time, if one is a newbie/intermediate?

The real question, to me, is another: can we trace a paralel of athletic/strength training in PE? This is about the same thing as asking : “A ‘less is more’ of guy, could become after years of PE training, a ‘more is more’ kind of guy?”. I asked an opinion to Sparkyx, for example, he answered he believed this is unlikely. Since we can’t do experiments, thoughts of experienced and intuitive guys have a weigh, so put the Sparkyx’ opinion into the basket.

Growth occurring by engorgement? I’m not sure I understand what this means precisely. Maybe ‘engorgement’ = ‘pressure from the inside’? Maybe B-G will like to explain better.

Sparkyx is a very intelligent guy. I PM’ed him about posting here but he is busy these days apparently.

I think BG means just having the penis is an enlarged state. We could derive pressure as the cause there I expect.

Is there a way to separate reduced blood-flow from enhanced pressure? Even jelq reduce somewhat the blood-flow. I think lack of oxygenation is a major factor as far as girth gains are concerned, where pressure is the major factor when lenght gains are concerned.

Let me explain: if you are doing girth-work, TA is expanded while doing PE; when you rest, the smooth muscle growth starts, and this continued pressure will enlarge after time the TA, acting like a ‘girth-extender’.

But reduced oxygenation could also be a cause of TA hypertrophy. That’s the last thing you want if you are aiming for lenght - an hypertrophied TA is harder to stretch: maybe this is THE reason why girth gains tends to kill lenght gains. Just another idea to play with. :)

Originally Posted by marinera
Is there a way to separate reduced blood-flow from enhanced pressure? Even jelq reduce somewhat the blood-flow. I think lack of oxygenation is a major factor as far as girth gains are concerned, where pressure is the major factor when lenght gains are concerned.

Let me explain: if you are doing girth-work, TA is expanded while doing PE; when you rest, the smooth muscle growth starts, and this continued pressure will enlarge after time the TA, acting like a ‘girth-extender’.

But reduced oxygenation could also be a cause of TA hypertrophy. That’s the last thing you want if you are aiming for lenght - an hypertrophied TA is harder to stretch: maybe this is THE reason why girth gains tends to kill lenght gains. Just another idea to play with. :)

I don’t think so. I think they are intertwined. Apparently, the penis enlarged (girth wise) in an erection also cuts off oxygenation somewhat (as you pointed out)…so I am guessing the Cialis/EVO would also cut off oxygenation. So unless both causal theories depend on extremes (totally cut off or enlarged above normal EG) then we should grow through this technique.

By the way, I plan to perform this routine beginning in a couple of weeks - but we can’t really test its properties on me due to the drug that minimizes my EG throughout 12 hours of the day. If I still grow from it then that would be crazy.

So, basically taking Cialis on continued manner?
Look at how much Cialis are you going to take. Ask to your Doc his opinion, too. Don’t play with drugs.

The EVO thing doesn’t look that convincing to me. I can’t see how it could help healing or gains. Ot it reduces oxygenation, for that matter.

Maybe another idea would be something like that: doing a short session of jelqs, then wearing a cockring untill the next short jelqing session - 5-6 times over the course of the day. Maybe somebody has already tried something like that, though.

Originally Posted by marinera
So, basically taking Cialis on continued manner?
Look at how much Cialis are you going to take. Ask to your Doc his opinion, too. Don’t play with drugs.

The EVO thing doesn’t look that convincing to me. I can’t see how it could help healing or gains. Ot it reduces oxygenation, for that matter.

Maybe another idea would be something like that: doing a short session of jelqs, then wearing a cockring untill the next short jelqing session - 5-6 times over the course of the day. Maybe somebody has already tried something like that, though.

I don’t like jelqing because I don’t like my PE to restrict other things. People who jelq could do that. This is one of the major advantages, for me, in clamping.

I’ve been researching cialis since Beretta suggested it. I will probably be taking it consistently since I actually do get lower erections due to my other drug. I am meeting with the doc tomorrow actually.

Even if it is not restricting blood flow, it is causing my penis to be in an enlarged state continually. I am telling you guys this, but try it yourselves. I am 100% sure it is working incredibly on me, so if BG’s theory is true, and not restrictive (as in it has to be in a state larger than EG normally is), then this should produce gains.

Coupled with cialis, on a person not suffering from drug induced ED, this would be worth testing. It might have codependent effects if coupled with clamping due to post-clamp engorgement, although I realize the fluid is different there.

Originally Posted by Big Girtha
The other thing I wanted to mention is how much success I’m having doing extreme 10 minute Cable Clamp Ulis in between each 10 minute set. The pumped Uli seem to be a better doughnut prevention technique than any of the wraps or other methods mentioned in the past. Perhaps all this is old stuff already covered at length deep within this thread, but thought it would if nothing else be a good excuse to bump it back into the public eye. Forgive me if this is redundant.

Later
BG

Quote from the condom pumping thread.

Originally Posted by marinera
Wondering why Drilla9 hasn’t posted here yet - probably too busy.

Indeed. There’s a lot to wade through. If anyone has questions for me directly, I’m now in a position to answer. :)


"Drilla Knows Ass" - Para-Goomba

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