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Biomechanical properties of the penis

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Let's talk about it.

I make the admission here and now that I am not familiar enough with the workings of anatomy to speak with authority. I have only the tools of reason, logic, inquiry, and research. Please correct me explicitly if my information is in error. I prefer accuracy and safety over pride.

Originally Posted by DiegoKahn
Figure I’ll break my lurking to add to science.

Yaog, in order to stretch and expand a plastic bottle, you need to deform the matrix structure. Using the numbers given in the article, you would need almost two thousand pounds of pressure to achieve this deformation in the tunica. Many bad things will happen before you start gaining length this way.

Nice post though. Good to see some still people take in interest in the science behind PE.

This brings in another question. If your materials analysis is correct, DiegoKahn, then the substantial length and girth gains would have to come from something other than deformation. Assuming the following for discussion:

1: The tunica is a fibrous orthogonal matrix that is not likely deformable by increased blood into the penis.

2: The ligaments on the penis are stretchable as proven with [informal] empirical evidence Here on Thunder’s

3: The extreme methods used to enlarge the penis, producing substantial gains, include clamping, hanging, and powerful manual stretching (O-bends and BTC stretches). All of these use blood trapped in the penis to form a kind of buffer that pushes out against the restrictive tissue, as well as causing micro-tears in spongy tissue.

Question 1: If the tunica itself does not deform easily then how do we anatomically explain the substantial length and girth gains that require the tunica to shift, elongate, or expand longitudinally?

Question 2: If one tears or aggressively stretches tissue directly adjacent/attached to the tunica, and inducing an expansion/healing process, does the tunica & other restrictive tissue grow to accommodate the tissue produced during the healing process?

Speculation, Food for thought: Clearly, the tunica has changed shape as shown with several-inch gains made by Bib and others. Or has it? Does the healing process of expanded internal tissue cause the tunica to “grow” (adding new fibres to the matrix @ point of expansion)? If this growth with healing is the case, how do we explain extreme and rather sudden (compared to 1/8” over a few months) girth expansions such as that demonstrated by Arisotcane? is it possible that the for the large gains in girth and length, the penis has to be pushed beyond a certain threshold whereupon an anatomic fail-safe causes the tunica to expand to avoid crushing of tissue?

Reference Request: Does anyone know of, or have access to, a multi-axial cross ssectionof various points on the penis? I've examined Gray's Anatomy, but am a bit befuddled by it. Labels and measurement data would also be appreciated with any diagram.

Thoughts? -Yaog

From a brief read of the article I find it interesting that the tunica modulus is 5 to 50 times higher than all the patch (graft) materials used. Tunica=12 MPa vs. ptfe @ 2.8 MPa.
In other words, the tunica is very hard to stretch.
I wish they discussed maximum elongation of the tunica vs other materials, to get an idea of how much elastic or plastic deformation is possible before tearing.

Quote
Xeno, gains aren’t made by changing the actual layout of our bodies, we’re making tears in our bodies and healing them at a bigger state.

This is assumed by many but is not necessarily true. When plastically deforming an amorphous solid, such as a plastic, or elastomer, or even glass, you are not tearing it, you are causing the tangled long molicules to rearrange so that they can not return to their original position. Collagenous tissue may be more similar to this model.

How can the article help with PE? I don’t know but I think I know a little more now and the knowldedge may be useful some day.

I found it interesting that they calculate stresses at 30 to 40% greater than normal when a plaque is present. I think we subject our penises to much greater stresses than that during PE without the pain associated with Peyronies disease, so there are still unanswered questions here.


Horny Bastard

Now these questions have uses for PE, before it sounded like you were just babbling about plastic bottles. The food for thought question made sense and I’d be interested in the answer.


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Building on mravg’s post above, It may be that the tunica is very elastic to a point. As we’ve seen with folks [like me], who have much larger EL then FSL, the tunica does stretch to a point. this notion is ffurtherreviewed in a medical article here: http://www.duj.com/Article/Lue.html

This article is very informative and was taken from a thread linked to by mgus earlier. Apparently the Tunica DOES stretch, or at least possesses the ability to do so. It would be good to understand how the fibers are made and how they interact naturally. Anyone have an idea? -Yaog

This article is very old, but it might add to the discussion.

CC “Struts” may limit girth growth

Page down the my post linking to “armadillo.pdf.”

As discussed in that article, the tunica is apparently unique among among bodily tissues because the collagen runs longitundinally (on the outer layer) and circumferentially (on the inner layer). Other double-layer structures in the body are constructed helically, with the helices running in opposite directions.


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This is what happens when you click post instead of preview.
Addendum to my previous post [edit time expired]:

[edit: ModestoMan’s link more or less explains what I talk about for the next few paragraphs.]

If we know how the fibres of the tunica are composed and formed, perhaps we can optimize bends for them?

Also, Another two links here and here—both from the previously mentioned thread—illuminate an important point. The CCs are intricate lattices with venous balloons that push the struts of the lattice out during erection. The CCs fill and push the penis into it’s erect shape. The tunica can be a limiting factor to erectile size if the CCs are pushing it to the limit; if the CCs are not, then the erection is defined by the volumetric expansion of the CCs. This is possibly why jelqing continues to be important not only for gains, but also for maintenance.

If the tunica has been stretched beyond the erect length of the CCs, then erect length will be shorter. This was discussed extensively in the linked thread. Here, I think is the evidence that jelqing works.

Given all this information, here’s a theory. Purely Postulation:

Newbie erect gains may be partly due to the CCs expanding to a point where they can fully push the tunica to it’s naturally specified volume. Once the CCs are filling out the tunica nicely, and the ligs are stretched, the tunica must be the next thing to give. Following this, the CCs must expand to fill the stretched tunica. This forms a cycle of making a bigger balloon [the tunica] and then getting the proper volume to fill it [engorged CCs]. The trick for an erection appears to be a parity of these two elements.

Do we have veterans with substantial gains whose routines separately stretch the tunica and expand the CCs? How can i improve my reasoning, and does anyone have scientific or statistical grounds to prove or disprove this idea? -Yaog

Originally Posted by yaog
Speculation, Food for thought: Clearly, the tunica has changed shape as shown with several-inch gains made by Bib and others. Or has it? Does the healing process of expanded internal tissue cause the tunica to “grow” (adding new fibres to the matrix @ point of expansion)? If this growth with healing is the case, how do we explain extreme and rather sudden (compared to 1/8” over a few months) girth expansions such as that demonstrated by Arisotcane? is it possible that the for the large gains in girth and length, the penis has to be pushed beyond a certain threshold whereupon an anatomic fail-safe causes the tunica to expand to avoid crushing of tissue?

Hmmm. There is an age old question here: Does growth occur through micro-tears? Or through cell growth? I don’t think the question has been answered definitively. Some google searches might turn up the answer. Not just related to PE, think of doing a split. Some how, somewhere some study must be able to answer whether that tissue elongation is caused by micro-tears that heal in the extended state, or through cellular growth under tension. Or a combination.

I think it is safe to assume tunica growth can occur from either CC expansion (jelqing) or stretching the tunica itself (stretching).

And the sudden girth increases? No knock to pumpers or clampers, but those are more likely a result of edema (swelling, lymph build up) trapped blood etc. That would likely explain the quick ‘gain.’ Of course those can become permanent w/ a consistent routine. Which brings us back to whether growth is a result of micro-tears, cellular growth due to time under tension or a combination?

Originally Posted by yaog
Once the CCs are filling out the tunica nicely, and the ligs are stretched, the tunica must be the next thing to give. Following this, the CCs must expand to fill the stretched tunica. This forms a cycle of making a bigger balloon [the tunica] and then getting the proper volume to fill it [engorged CCs]. The trick for an erection appears to be a parity of these two elements.


Bib talked about a ‘see-saw’ principle. Where, through figuring one’s LOT, there would be an alternation of focusing PE work on either the ligs, then the tunica. And reverse & back until desired results are achieved.

I’ve tested BIB’s ‘see-saw” principle. And found it valid. Interest in such, at Thunder’s Place, as far as I can tell is nil.


originally: 6.5" BPEL x 5.0" EG (ms); currently: 9.375" BPEL x 6.75" EG (ms)

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Tell me, o monks; what cannot be achieved through efforts. - Siddhartha Gautama

Well, I must say that there seems to be a less inquisitive element here now-a-days.

Might be due to an advertising campaign that some engage in. Before guys used to have to inquire a bit to find it here (to PE that is, not necessarily TP). And the nature to be inquisitive doesn’t just go by the wayside once they get here.

But now that PE is being actively advertised by some, there likely will be a different element. At one point there was a ‘fight club’ mentality. Where some guys looked at it like, I won’t tell anyone about it, but once they are here, welcome them w/ open arms & information.

But now that it is being thrown out there - different element……..?

Anonymous,

I think there is still a lot of inquisitiveness, but it just gets pushed aside faster because there are more members now. Which leads to more posts about other things (e.g. girlfriends, injuries, new exercises, random posts, etc.)


Yaog,

I like your Cyclic Push-Pull theory. The Tunica pulls (in an essence) the CC longer/wider until the CC goes beyond the tunica’s limit (which causes the tunica to be pushed by the CC.)

I am stumped in one place though. I might be understanding this wrong, and if I am please point it out. From what you said the tunica isn’t completely filled until one engages in PE, and this is what causes newbie gains. Since we are speculating, I hope you don’t mind me saying I think something else causes the newbie gains. I’m not quite sure what, but allow me to speculate some more…

The tunica limits the erection of the penis similar to how a bicycle tire limits the tube in side. If what you are saying is correct, the tunica isn't maximized in a normal (PRE-PE) penis. Through penis enlargement it is pushed to the naturally specified volume. This would mean the CC wouldn’t fit the tunica in a PRE-PE penis.

More speculation … I think for the penis to induce a strong erection the CC and the Tunica have to be properly aligned — like a key in a lock (I.E. they have to fit properly). If the tunica has more room than the CC, THEN the lock is bigger than the key. Thus, if the tunica is pushed beyond the CC reach, then this causes weaker erections. How? The tunica is the shell of the CC. A shell that is too big would look similar to a slim person with a husky person’s clothes — abaggy shell; a soft erection.

Therefore, if the tunica wasn’t at its naturally specified volume (if it wasn’t properly aligned with the CC), then I think the erections would appear weak and not rigid. As we all know, our PRE-PE penis’ were not weak and nonrigid (at least some of us). This would mean the CC and the tunica would be aligned properly in the beginning. Which would pose another question: If the CPP theory (Cylcic Push Pull) has truth, then what starts pushing/pulling first?

I hope I didn’t lose you there. I could be wrong, and I too would rather have accuracy above my pride, so feel free to point out any errors (in judgement or discription) I made.

I’ve been reading this thread and its links for well over an hour, so I am afraid my time is up… But I too will end with some food for thought:

If two men engage in PE with everything the same (i.e. measurements, health, age, etc.) except one man has a tunica that is bigger than the CC (i.e. improperly aligned), and the other man is properly aligned, which will man gain more?

According to your theory, the man with the bigger tunica will have more newbie gains because the CC has to “catch up” to the tunica. From what I have read, evidence here supports this. Typically men who are older and have weaker erections (their CC has shrunken a little, perhaps?), gain fairly quickly… Coincidence? Maybe. I don’t know. But I don’t think this is the cause of all newbie gains.


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Originally Posted by anonymous07128
Bib talked about a ‘see-saw’ principle. Where, through figuring one’s LOT, there would be an alternation of focusing PE work on either the ligs, then the tunica. And reverse & back until desired results are achieved.

To give credit where it is due, I think it was actually Hobby who first articulated the see-saw principle here.

Hobby was talking about the fact that LOT can be made to increase or decrease depending on whether one stretches up or down. That discussion concerned ligs and tunicae. I think that’s a different idea from what Yaog is presenting.

Yaog’s idea relates to whether one can alternatively expand the CCs and stretch the tunica. I think the answer is “sort of.” The CCs are intimately connected to the tunica. Actually, the trabeculae that form the sinusoids of the CCs grow out of the cirumferential fibers of the tunica. Thus, the CCs and the tunica are not completely separate. This is where the soda bottle analogy falls down.

Whenever you stretch the tunica, you’re also stretching (or at least elongating) the CCs. But I think it’s true that one can get ahead of the other. People who only hang might stretch the tunica lengthwise but do little to increase the length of the erect CCs. This is because the CCs are 3D arrays of sinusoids. Stretching the penis might cause the sinusoids to flatten out, but not necessarily to grow. Some combination of length work with girth work (such as o-bends) might be needed to do this.

My current routine is based on something like the CPP theory. I stretch (or hang) to increase my BPFSL. Then I jelq and squeeze to increase BPEL.


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Originally Posted by yaog
Once the CCs are filling out the tunica nicely, and the ligs are stretched, the tunica must be the next thing to give. Following this, the CCs must expand to fill the stretched tunica. This forms a cycle of making a bigger balloon [the tunica] and then getting the proper volume to fill it [engorged CCs]. The trick for an erection appears to be a parity of these two elements.

Originally Posted by anonymous07128
Bib talked about a ‘see-saw’ principle. Where, through figuring one’s LOT, there would be an alternation of focusing PE work on either the ligs, then the tunica. And reverse & back until desired results are achieved.


Originally Posted by ModestoMan
I think that’s a different idea from what Yaog is presenting. Yaog’s idea relates to whether one can alternatively expand the CCs and stretch the tunica.


True. I breezed over his point & read it as, ‘after PE’ing the CC & the ligs then the tunica’ is the next target. To which I added the ‘see-saw’ approach.

If I understand correctly, yaog’s premise questioned how to optimise the pressures to expand the tunica? Which *would* be different than standard stretching of the tunica. In a practical way, more related to pumping? Or other expansion type exercises.

And if hobby first recognised the see-saw effect, I apologise for not attributing the credit accurately.

Yaog,

Check out “Memento’s momentous gain mechanism” for his stretch-jelq program. Pretty much what you asked for, I think - including the inspiring gains.


regards, mgus

Taped onto the dashboard of a car at a junkyard, I once found the following: "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." The car was crashed.

Primary goal: To have an EQ above average (i.e. streetsmart, compassionate about life and happy) Secondary goal: to make an anagram of my signature denoting how I feel about my gains

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